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RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/20/2009 1:52:27 PM

ANRsub

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Joined: 8/14/2009
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We have to clarify to ourselves what it is we're wanting, justice, or vengance. I have no problem, as stated before, with either concept. They aren't totally mutually-exclusive, but "Justice" doesn't want him to die horribly the same number of times as the # of lives he took, vengance does. What we REALLY want are the lives that he took from us back, but we know THAT isn't possible, so absolute vengance really isn't going to work. This leaves us with justice, which CAN have a taste of vengance to it. Consider that had he NOT come down with terminal cancer, he'd have lived his life in (relative) comfort, a living symbol to the others of his type. He'd have received the best of health-care, as required by the same laws that convicted and incarcerated him, he'd have probably lived quite a bit longer than many in his native land, all at the expense of the people of Scottland. NOW he gets to die an ugly painful death, for which the only real relief therefrom is the narcotics that dull the pain until they kill. He has this nature-deliverd, what some would call "Karmic" death-sentance handed him, and his final care won't be levied against the accounts of the people who tried and sentanced him. While I'd have preferd him endure prolonged daily torture administered at the hands of true masters of the art, I am willing to envision his suffering from what he has under less-than-ideal conditions on someone else's tab.

ANRsub

(in reply to Starbuck09)

Post #: 41

RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/20/2009 1:58:14 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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Joined: 1/26/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

Well I disagree with that Panda [I did'nt see the edit till just now]. Why are you stunned that I feel terribly sorry for the families but still think the price is worth paying? I feel the same sorrow for the families of those killed in our wars but I still feel the price is worth pating.

There are several differences, not the least of which is that unlike military personnel who are killed in combat, none of the Lockerbie victims volunteered to be blown out of the sky. I am stunned that you think the pain those families feel is worth whatever noble point you think is being made by letting this animal go home as a triumphant hero.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09
Get of your high horse Panda it doesn't suit you and casting aspersions of wht is wrong with my people when you live in America is akin to throwing stones in glass houses. Get your own house in order before condemning a nation.

Earlier, you said that the people of a country should not necessarily be condemned for the actions of their government. While I don't agree with that, neither do I agree with this contention that because I live here, I am unqualified to criticize the actions of any other country. I never accepted the validity of the argument that Europeans have no business criticizing us for the harm we do, and i don't accept the validity of the argument when it's coming back the other way, either.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Starbuck09)

Post #: 42

RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/20/2009 2:01:18 PM

4u2spoil

Posts: 211
Joined: 5/1/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

If that murdering cocksucker is being let out of prison to spend his last days in the comfort of his own home, then he has not been sufficiently punished. He slaughtered 270 innocent human beings, for god's sake! How could anything be sufficient punishment for that?

Fuck compassion! There is no place for compassion for someone who slaughtered hundreds of innocent people! I am appalled and dumbstruck that anyone would think he deserves even the least bit of compassion! Jesus christ, what is wrong with you people over there? This is morally indefensible. I'm just stunned that any human being could rationalize this.

I am also not the least bit interested in "showing we are better than the savages who perpetrate such monstrous acts." See, I already know we are, and anyone who doesn't grasp that is way too far gone anyway to be persuaded by this shameful rejection of everything that justice is supposed to stand for. I also think it's absurd to say that nothing would be served by making him serve his entire sentence. If nothing else, it would serve to give the families of his victims some small measure of comfort knowing that the animal who murdered their loved ones will never taste the air of freedom again. And that alone is more than worth keeping that scumbag locked up until he dies.

Collar me needs a thumbs up button. Well said Panda.

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)

Post #: 43

RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/20/2009 2:03:31 PM

Vendaval

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Fast Reply -

He should have been left to die in the prison hospital ward.

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(in reply to 4u2spoil)

Post #: 44

RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/20/2009 2:19:11 PM

4u2spoil

Posts: 211
Joined: 5/1/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

But you cannot make him live longer to punish him further. If there was a way to do so bita I would be for it.

He could have easily been left to die in prison. I'm actually anti-death penalty for the handfull of cases where people are found to be innocent, but participating in the killing of 270 people certainly seems worthy of dying in a hospital prison ward. Compassion is giving him access to medical care while he's dying. Giving him a get out of jail free card is something else entirely.

Seriously, can you imagine your loved one being blown to bits at 30,000 feet? Or perhaps not dying from that, but being burned and falling to their death in the earth below? None of those people had their families around them for their last moment, he shouldn't get the privilege either. He already had it pretty good being jailed in a country like Scotland. I'm sure there are prisoners in places in Asia who would cut off a limb to trade accommodations. Not making him sleep on the floor while rodents and bugs nibble at him is compassion. Not stoning him to death is compassion. Not letting him get infected with malaria or some communicable disease caught in prison is compassion. Letting him out to spend his final days somewhere he likes is nuts.

(in reply to Starbuck09)

Post #: 45

RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/20/2009 2:48:18 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 4u2spoil

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

If that murdering cocksucker is being let out of prison to spend his last days in the comfort of his own home, then he has not been sufficiently punished. He slaughtered 270 innocent human beings, for god's sake! How could anything be sufficient punishment for that?

Fuck compassion! There is no place for compassion for someone who slaughtered hundreds of innocent people! I am appalled and dumbstruck that anyone would think he deserves even the least bit of compassion! Jesus christ, what is wrong with you people over there? This is morally indefensible. I'm just stunned that any human being could rationalize this.

I am also not the least bit interested in "showing we are better than the savages who perpetrate such monstrous acts." See, I already know we are, and anyone who doesn't grasp that is way too far gone anyway to be persuaded by this shameful rejection of everything that justice is supposed to stand for. I also think it's absurd to say that nothing would be served by making him serve his entire sentence. If nothing else, it would serve to give the families of his victims some small measure of comfort knowing that the animal who murdered their loved ones will never taste the air of freedom again. And that alone is more than worth keeping that scumbag locked up until he dies.

Collar me needs a thumbs up button. Well said Panda.

Ditto, well said Panda!
I think we were already "better than them." This fuck should have died in prison.
Hey! Look on the bright side, at least now the C.I.A. or "others" can send a team over and wack the cunt and his whole rotten family too!

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Post #: 46

RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/20/2009 3:32:59 PM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

But you cannot make him live longer to punish him further. If there was a way to do so bita I would be for it.

No, but neither do you have to allow him the comfort and support of his family during his final days.

Honestly, that you believe that deaths of 270 people are a worthy price to pay to prove a point is beyond my ability to grasp. When does the price become too high to prove a point?

2000? 2,000,000? Where's your line?

He went home to a hero's welcome. Do you really think they got the 'point'? There were so many young people on that plane who never got a chance. Children who will never be born by them. Grandchildren. Generations wiped out. I'm stunned by your dismissal of all those lives.. all that possibility simply to prove a point.

_____________________________

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Post #: 47

RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/20/2009 3:47:59 PM

servantforuse

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I wonder how Kitten and other compassionate folks would feel if one of their family members were on that plane ?

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 48

RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/20/2009 3:49:18 PM

Starbuck09

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Joined: 6/7/2009
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To Panda and Bita I do not see this as ''making a point'' it is something that defines who we are. Compassion is the difference between them and us and it is why we cherish it. I d not dismiss the suffering of his victims families bita hw dare you just because my views are beyond your ability to grasp it does not make me or this decision wrong. How dare you insinuate that I believe the lives of thee people were worth this decision? I would do anything within my power to have saved them including giving my own life what I said was worth this decisiosn is the grief and anger of those left behind no matter how terrible a price that is. where's my line? There is no line Bita like I said when you believe something you live it you don't pay lip service to it. My dismissal of their lives? You utter swineflu bita.
I have never said you were unqualified to criticise panda what I have said is that saying things like what is wrong with you people is ignorant. If you're going tyo condemn the people of a nation make sure your own house is in order like I said. When I criticise gun laws in america I do not brand and charge the people I debate the issue.
4u2spoil no I have no idea what it is like to lose a family member in that way I can only imagine how horrendous it is. I agree that all you list is compassionate I don't agree the last is nuts though.
Popeye ''so we can whack the cunt and his whole rotten family too!'' so you're no different to this prick you fucking animal.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 49

RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/20/2009 4:19:28 PM

ANRsub

Posts: 20
Joined: 8/14/2009
Status: offline

Hello, you who name yourself after a second-rate coffee establishment, may I strongly suggest you acquaint yourself with the writings of Machiavelli? We've taken this discussion past the point of justice/revenge upon the individual, and into the actions of sovereign nation-states against other such.. To maintain one's safety AS a free state, sometimes one needs to, shall we say, to use a looser, more-modern vernacular, "Get down with our bad selves". When an organization or state strikes against you, capturing, prosecuting, and punishing the active individual is insufficient, one needs to get to the source of the problem. One needs to do so without hesitation, remorse, or restraint upon the designated target. That we feel restrained by the constraints of "civilization" allows those NOT so-constrained to act with impunity. Bita Trouble is on the right track, emotionally/philosophically but falls way short. Forget the family, you take out the entire country. You state WHY you're doing it, and you explain that other such like-minded nation-states face similar terrible retribution if they in any way interfere or take action against us in any way. Fear and moral terror must be your close allies, if not, they are your surest enemies.

Remember when I said you were immature? You demonstrated that when you used profanity against Bita, engaging in ad-hominym invective. Children resort to such name-calling. You may disagree, and strongly-so, with anyone, and state that in clear, strong terms, but the line stops at profane name-calling. I would call for you to apologize, but I see that as being beyond your level. I may poke and prod you, or others, but I won't do what you did, it serves no purpose. I should probably expect you to engage in further vulgar invective in response to this posting, so feel free, I see it merely as you digging your hole deeper.

(in reply to Starbuck09)

Post #: 50

RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/20/2009 4:20:38 PM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

To Panda and Bita I do not see this as ''making a point''

Then you're delusional. This guy was freed to show compassion. That's a point. Scotland is BETTER than the monster. THAT'S A POINT. Your failure to see it's a point doesn't change the fact THAT IT IS A POINT.

quote:

it is something that defines who we are. Compassion is the difference between them and us and it is why we cherish it. I d not dismiss the suffering of his victims families bita hw dare you just because my views are beyond your ability to grasp it does not make me or this decision wrong. How dare you insinuate that I believe the lives of thee people were worth this decision?

I didn't insinuate anything. You said it! And yeah, you are wrong. The decision is wrong.

"And yes it is worth the families pain as terrible a cost as that is."

Those are YOUR words. You think that pain came about in a vaccum? No! It came about because their families members died! Good grief. What planet are you on! How dare I? How dare you!

quote:

I would do anything within my power to have saved them including giving my own life what I said was worth this decisiosn is the grief and anger of those left behind no matter how terrible a price that is. where's my line? There is no line Bita like I said when you believe something you live it you don't pay lip service to it. My dismissal of their lives? You utter swineflu bita.

I'm utter swineflu? You are willing for the whole Earth to be destroyed, yes, FOR A POINT, whether you want hide behind some delusion about it or not, while I think that ONE is too many. I am so grateful that ilk like you shows such contempt for me but has so much compassion for a mass murderer. Your priorities are beyond warped but your hypocrisy is quite clear. I'm so thankful you posted. It makes me truly grateful for the exceptional people in my life.

I don't think I can speak with you again without vomiting. You've made your stance clear. I get you. I'm quite sure I've done the same. May your compassion for a mass murdering, terrorist who got welcomed home like a hero allow you a sound enough sleep to blight out the cries of 270 people who got blown up at his hands.

I'm so done with you. So done. You make sick.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to Starbuck09)

Post #: 51

RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/20/2009 4:28:57 PM

numuncular

Posts: 183
Joined: 2/14/2009
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is everyone in america oblivious to the fact that an important chunk of the evidence against him turns out to be questionable?

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 52

RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/20/2009 4:29:45 PM

Starbuck09

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Putting it in capitals does'nt make what you're saying more valid. This is about living by the stadards we st for ourselves not just making a pot at theexpense of the 270 deaths as you posited.
No I didn't say it I said the freeing of this manwas worth the grief of the families no thedeaths themselves nothing was worth that. These are your own words not mine. Yes How dare you.
Yes you are a swineflu who not being able to understand my view had to change it to something you could ''grasp''. I would be willing for the whole world to be destroyed to make a point? And you call me delusional what are you talking about? This is standard for people like you come up aginst something you can't understand and shriek. I think one is to m any you sickening woman but I do not use these deaths as excuse to abandom either my own principles or those of my nation. I willn ot give this animal the satisfaction of changing the country which he damaged so cruelly. If you want to feel free.
You're quite right the words fall dead between us you justify it however you want I won't let this man win you bow down before him. I will never forget the deaths of these people and I will never USE their death to justify absndoning the values of my nation. Enjoy your self righteous hypocricy Bita.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 53

RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/20/2009 4:38:38 PM

Starbuck09

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Joined: 6/7/2009
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You are revealing your own ignorance Anrsub I m named after a character in moby dick who in turn gave rise to the name of the coffe change. You can note the change by the added s to the establishment. I am well aware of the teachings of Machiavelli. I am also awre of the dynamics of geo politics. Like i have already stated in this debate to stop this behaviour you have to take out the source. Depending on the circumstances you do have to show restraint. What do you think the reaction from china and Russia would be if you nuked Baghdad? You take out the whole country? What military strategy is that based on Amr? What you do is cut off the head of the snake and let the rest wither and die. Power is always the greatest weapon of a nation however it doe snot have to be the only weapon. This scenario had nothing to do with power again as I said if Libya had sprung him from jail i would think differently. If his incarceration till death would have deterred further attacks again I would have thought differently.
If you want immaturity look at your first post to me Amv sub you are 53 look how you began adressing me. As for invective it entirely depends on the circumstance saying that i dismiss the l;ives of 270 innocent civilians is in my opinion a valid case for a little poison. It is always those who practice faux moral outrage that are the worst offenders Amvsub. you may think an insult when provoked is asure sign of childish behaviour but I disagree. Again look no further than your initial posting to me. Pontficating upon me now does not change that.

(in reply to Starbuck09)

Post #: 54

RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/20/2009 4:39:32 PM

angelikaJ

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Joined: 6/22/2007
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FR

An article that has victims' relatives on both sides of the argument (and on his guilt or innocence):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/6060191/Lockerbie-relatives-of-victims-divided-on-subject-of-convicted-bombers-guilt.html

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Post #: 55

RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/20/2009 4:43:03 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I wonder how Kitten and other compassionate folks would feel if one of their family members were on that plane ?

Many of the British relatives remain unconvinced of his guilt and are okay with the decision to release him.

(in reply to servantforuse)

Post #: 56

RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/20/2009 4:47:21 PM

angelikaJ

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http://www.newsweek.com/id/212937?from=rss

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Post #: 57

RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/20/2009 5:02:41 PM

rikigrl

Posts: 203
Joined: 5/14/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

To Panda and Bita I do not see this as ''making a point'' it is something that defines who we are. Compassion is the difference between them and us and it is why we cherish it. I d not dismiss the suffering of his victims families bita hw dare you just because my views are beyond your ability to grasp it does not make me or this decision wrong. How dare you insinuate that I believe the lives of thee people were worth this decision? I would do anything within my power to have saved them including giving my own life what I said was worth this decisiosn is the grief and anger of those left behind no matter how terrible a price that is. where's my line? There is no line Bita like I said when you believe something you live it you don't pay lip service to it. My dismissal of their lives? You utter swineflu bita.
I have never said you were unqualified to criticise panda what I have said is that saying things like what is wrong with you people is ignorant. If you're going tyo condemn the people of a nation make sure your own house is in order like I said. When I criticise gun laws in america I do not brand and charge the people I debate the issue.
4u2spoil no I have no idea what it is like to lose a family member in that way I can only imagine how horrendous it is. I agree that all you list is compassionate I don't agree the last is nuts though.
Popeye ''so we can whack the cunt and his whole rotten family too!'' so you're no different to this prick you fucking animal.

Just so you know Starbuck, you are not alone. I envy you and your country for your civility (for example, though everybody was piling on you never once used a profanity). There are those of us who agree with you but see the futility of trying to find reason within these forums. It appears that most come here just looking for an argument, and, you will never find one person with enough courage to say "you are right and I am wrong" no matter the subject or the evidence provided, and to expect them to change morally or philosophically is a task worthy of Sisyphus. Good luck to you, i personally refuse to get involved in these childish arguments.

(in reply to Starbuck09)

Post #: 58

RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/20/2009 5:10:14 PM

Starbuck09

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Joined: 6/7/2009
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Thankyou rikigrl that is incredibly kind of you. As nice as it is though modesty commits me to say that i'm probably not worthy of the sentiment. I think I tend to be as entrenched in my ideas as others much as i wish myself otherwise, but thankyou so very much regardless.

(in reply to rikigrl)

Post #: 59

RE: Lockerbie bomber is let out to die at home - 8/20/2009 11:02:38 PM

WyldHrt

Posts: 6412
Joined: 6/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rikigrl
I envy you and your country for your civility (for example, though everybody was piling on you never once used a profanity).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09
[snip]You utter swineflu bita.[/snip]
[snip]so you're no different to this prick you fucking animal.

Yeah, no profanity there

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Post #: 60

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