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RE: When a master makes a promise - 2/24/2006 8:42:02 AM   
truesub4u


Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lapis


Regardless if slave is property isnt breaking a promise wrong? Or is Master never wrong?



Oh I can see it now... No.. Master is never wrong!

I'll jump now on this... YES.. Master can be wrong SOMETIMES... if he's human. It's human nature to screw up from time to time... but to do it ALL the time... that's just pushing authority too far.

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RE: When a master makes a promise - 2/24/2006 8:43:14 AM   
yourMissTress


Posts: 1665
Joined: 6/14/2005
From: Nashville, TN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lapis

Master is in charge. Master gives the final word on decisions. i understand and agreed to this 5 years ago.

my question to those here. Is is acceptable for a Master to go back on a promise? Is Master above keeping promises? little promises like a promise to fix the truck. or a big promise like to sepnd more time on us.


I approach all the different parts of my life (mother, Domme, girlfriend, friend, sister, daughter and so on) with a few basic priciples. Those are the basic priciples that make up ME and they are constant in every aspect of my life.

One of those basic principles is not to make a promise that I don't intend to or can't keep. I don't make promises to anyone in my life that I don't have every intention of following through on. And I try not to make promises that have any probability of being broken. I make no promises that would depend on someone else to fulfill them, or any promises that are so far out in the future that time itself could interfere with the promise I made.

It's all about trust and accountability and personal responsibility. If I am not as good as my word what credibility do I have? How can I be effective in any aspect of my life if I'm not true to what I say? As the Dominant I set the standard of what's acceptable behavior. I can't expect my submissive to be more honest than myself. I can't expect them to trust me if I don't earn that trust.

_____________________________

Tress


"If you have to tell people that you are a lady, you are not." My Grandmother


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RE: When a master makes a promise - 2/24/2006 8:44:28 AM   
DestinyCommander


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Joined: 2/17/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lapis

little promises like a promise to fix the truck. or a big promise like to sepnd more time on us.


I didn't read this post as fully as I should have, and so I want to rewind (a little) here.

The size of the promise has nothing to do with the thing being promised. "Fix the truck" might very well be a big promise, if its something seriously impacting your lives. It depends on the circumstances at the time such promise was made. It also makes a difference who owns the truck: if its your Master's truck, then that promise is to himself, not you, and he's fully permitted of making and breaking promises to himself..

From the sound of it (and this is just my gut talking, from personal experience), the "promise" of "spending more time on us" may not actually have been a promise at all. Did your Master sit you down, look you in the eye, and say "I promise to spend more time on us"? Or was it a more casual statement in the middle of conversion? Or maybe he did it in exasperation after an argument (in which case he may need to learn to be a little better at being in charge).

If the promise was made with any coersion (from you or anyone else), or without his full attention to the statement being said, it doesn't really count as a promise.

Personally, I believe that true promises should be made somewhat ceremoniously. They are powerful things, and should not be taken lightly.


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RE: When a master makes a promise - 2/24/2006 8:45:48 AM   
ownedgirlie


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Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: truesub4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: lapis


Regardless if slave is property isnt breaking a promise wrong? Or is Master never wrong?



Oh I can see it now... No.. Master is never wrong!

I'll jump now on this... YES.. Master can be wrong SOMETIMES... if he's human. It's human nature to screw up from time to time... but to do it ALL the time... that's just pushing authority too far.


Awww c'mon, true, MY Master is PERFECT!!!! ~ grinning ~

Yes of course they can be wrong; they are also human. But we do trust them, do we not? If we were second guessing them all the time because we figured they were wrong, what would that get us?

Again i think intentions are one thing; promises entirely different. i see promises at the BIG things. (ie; "I will not send your mother all of your naked pictures.") But promises CAN be changed. It just helps with the whole credibility thing if the slave understands why. Otherwise.....plan to have trust issues....

(in reply to truesub4u)
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RE: When a master makes a promise - 2/24/2006 8:47:12 AM   
MyCaptainsPet


Posts: 219
Joined: 1/22/2006
Status: offline 		In my opinion, everyone does have to take into account that subs DO have feelings and they are human...

Feelings are going to get hurt, promises will be broken. Being a Master/Owner/Dom doesn't give someone the blanket excuse to just be a jerk. They are responsible for the care and feeding of their sub... and that includes the mental well being.

i don't care how you slice it.. we are all HUMAN and have basic, primal needs... and one is to feel safe and secure in our relationships.. Break a promise and you are taking away the security that you mean what you say and say what you mean...

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RE: When a master makes a promise - 2/24/2006 8:48:29 AM   
DestinyCommander


Posts: 30
Joined: 2/17/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

Taggard, how can You truly believe that a slave is like a car or cat/dog? we are humans, living, breathing, thinking with emotions and feelings. Now i might be able to understand Your way of thinking if one was say, brain dead and in a coma. Yes, i may be 'property' to One, but i cannot stop thinking, feeling, breathing, etc. Just my own curiosity...


Ay yay yay! Are we going to go through THAT discussion again?!?

(angelic: for your reference, see this thread:
Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever...)


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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: When a master makes a promise - 2/24/2006 8:50:29 AM   
truesub4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MyCaptainsPet

In my opinion, everyone does have to take into account that subs DO have feelings and they are human...

Feelings are going to get hurt, promises will be broken. Being a Master/Owner/Dom doesn't give someone the blanket excuse to just be a jerk. They are responsible for the care and feeding of their sub... and that includes the mental well being.

i don't care how you slice it.. we are all HUMAN and have basic, primal needs... and one is to feel safe and secure in our relationships.. Break a promise and you are taking away the security that you mean what you say and say what you mean...



Applauds Cpt's Pet....

So well stated.. it made my daughter yell AMEN!!!!

Thank you....

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: When a master makes a promise - 2/24/2006 8:52:25 AM   
DestinyCommander


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lapis


quote:

ORIGINAL: DestinyCommander


But keep in mind, it must really have been a promise. Simply to have said you'll do something is not a promise.


then what is it?



A statement, or a decision. Which, in your own words you've agreed to let him make. A promise is more special; it is a foundation of trust. Did HE mean it as a promise, or did you simply interpret it that way?

It is all too easy to hear someone say they'll do something, and take that as an unbreakable commitment.

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"You have to get up pretty early in the morning to get ME up pretty early in the morning." -- Ian Shoales

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RE: When a master makes a promise - 2/24/2006 8:53:44 AM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lapis

Master is in charge. Master gives the final word on decisions. i understand and agreed to this 5 years ago.

my question to those here. Is is acceptable for a Master to go back on a promise? Is Master above keeping promises? little promises like a promise to fix the truck. or a big promise like to sepnd more time on us.


In my world (a place some here call a cloudy fantasy land), a Master gives or revokes anything when it comes to his slave. He certainly does not answer to her, and any pleasure or enjoyment offered to her should be seen as a gift, not a promise or obligation.


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RE: When a master makes a promise - 2/24/2006 8:54:40 AM   
RubberWitch


Posts: 1368
Joined: 7/27/2005
Status: offline 		1) don't lump cats and dogs together.
2) Masters can be wrong, however it is outside of a slaves remit to ponder upon this
3) Anyone. Promises should be kept. It's sloppy language use to say "I will" when you mean "I'll try to"
4) Masters, this goes double for you. Once you've pealed a sub of her independance, you have a responsibility.

My pet is shoujoneko. She can wander off on her own, I would only make a promise to her if I was sure I could keep it, whether it's fixing the truck, or spending more time, or, more often than not, both.

]v[

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RE: When a master makes a promise - 2/24/2006 8:58:11 AM   
Evanesce


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quote:

my question to those here. Is is acceptable for a Master to go back on a promise? Is Master above keeping promises? little promises like a promise to fix the truck. or a big promise like to sepnd more time on us.


This is a make or break point with me. My feeling is that if he cannot keep his word, he cannot be trusted. To me, a person's most valuable possession is his/her word, and the giving of it is something bordering on sacred. To go back on that word then teaches others that individual is unreliable, and that their word is meaningless. I couldn't commit my life to such a person. If I tell someone I'm going to do something, I do it; and I expect the same from them.

There are, of course, extreme situations in which the breaking of a promise is unavoidable - and forgivable. Things like auto accidents, family emergencies, and the occasional inhuman demands of a cranky boss might prevent someone from doing as they have promised, but these things are VERY rare.

_____________________________

Denise

Give a slave what he truly needs, and he will do what you want.

"There's never a hero in a battle of ego." - Big & Rich


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RE: When a master makes a promise - 2/24/2006 8:59:47 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		"I will" MEANS "I'll try to." No one can honestly say "I will" because no one can predict the future. If you say you "will" do something and end up not doing it, the only relevant question is whether you reasonably could have done what you promised. If you really could have, then it's fair to say you broke your promise. But if you couldn't have, then it's only fair to say that you weren't able to keep your promise. There's an important difference in there somewhere.

I get the feeling that people are talking past each other in this thread. Yes, it's bad to go back on your promises. Yes, it's a sign of an immature dom. But no one is perfect. What more is there to be said? Does a slave have a "right" to complain or bitch or moan or leave the relationship if the master breaks his promise? It depends on whom you ask. There's no police force or review board that handles stuff like this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RubberWitch

3) Anyone. Promises should be kept. It's sloppy language use to say "I will" when you mean "I'll try to"


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RE: When a master makes a promise - 2/24/2006 9:00:16 AM   
KatyLied


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Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

Is is acceptable for a Master to go back on a promise?


Is it acceptable for a person to go back on a promise?
Just because he calls himself "Master", it doesn't mean he has special promise-keeping abilitiies.

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“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: When a master makes a promise - 2/24/2006 9:00:55 AM   
Evanesce


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Joined: 9/14/2005
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quote:

Does a slave have the right to expect anything of his/her Master? Does that expecation change the fundamental nature of the Master/slave dynamic?


Yes, a slave has the right to expect his/her Master to be an honorable individual. Going back on one's word is not honorable.

_____________________________

Denise

Give a slave what he truly needs, and he will do what you want.

"There's never a hero in a battle of ego." - Big & Rich


(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: When a master makes a promise - 2/24/2006 9:05:22 AM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		it's hard to trust someone with your life if they can't keep a simple promise. Making promises that you don't keep is wrong Master/Mistress or no. A slave has a right to speak up (Yes I know many think I'm wrong about this but I don't care.) because contrary to all the contracts and mumbojumbo in the world, they are actually free people (at least in the USA). So if he's not keeping his promises why should you keep yours?

Tell him a Master keeps things in order and if he's allowing things to turn to shit then he isn't much of a master.

Lashra

(in reply to MyCaptainsPet)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: When a master makes a promise - 2/24/2006 9:07:38 AM   
truesub4u


Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

In my world (a place some here call a cloudy fantasy land), a Master gives or revokes anything when it comes to his slave. He certainly does not answer to her, and any pleasure or enjoyment offered to her should be seen as a gift, not a promise or obligation.




Well there goes the theory of give and receive. Being a Dom and or a slave.. doesn't mean this is all a one way street.

Some Doms take this life style to mean they are GODS.... (stands back in case lightening strikes to close to these Gods.. because of my Gods jealousy streak)

Submission is a gift.... Dominance.. in return is also a gift. This is not a one way street. In order to Dominate someone.. someone has to want to submit to the Dominant.

amayos... up until now... I thought you and taggard where in your own litle worlds... now I see you 2 circle the same island....

Again.. i'm not condeming your way of thinking..for they are yours.. and the way you choose to see things... i'm not right or wrong.. just like you're not.... just like you.. sticking my 2 cents out there on the responses that are thrown out here...

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: When a master makes a promise - 2/24/2006 9:14:33 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		When it comes to discussing Masters or slaves, I can only speak for myself and through the eyes of a Gorean Master. For me, a Master and in particular, a Gorean Master, is that he is a Man, not just a member of the male gender, but a MAN. Some of the tenets which I personally consider to be the qualities of a Man are:


    [1] A Man is a male whose bond is his word. (No written guarantees when a handshake will do).

    [2] He will not make promises without deep thought of all the consequences.

    [3] Promises may have a time line attached. Such time lines may be that he will complete keeping a promise by a specific time/date, or it may be that the promise will be kept until a time/date or a specific condition is kept.

    [4] He will keep his word unless by doing so he or others may be placed in physical or financial harm.

    [5] He will keep his word unless circumstances out side of his control prevent him from doing so.

    [6] If for any reason it becomes impracticable for him to maintain a promise, he will let the person know and may even re-evaluate the best way to deal with the circumstances regarding the original promise. (It may be reasonable to make modifications to the original promise).

    [7] He may make up his mind to do something, and even let others know of his decision. He is not bound to such decisions unless he has given his word and thus can without loss of honour.

    [8] Generally, a Master does make certain promises to a slave which is implied (at least in my case) when he locks a collar about her throat. Such promises deal with his responsibilities in looking after her and protecting her from harm.

I can probably find others but this should give you some idea where I am at. This list excepting the last one was taught to me on my Father’s knee and by my Grandfather too.


“You gotta play the game. It’s all in the game and how you play it!”


_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: When a master makes a promise - 2/24/2006 9:22:56 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: yourMissTress

One of those basic principles is not to make a promise that I don't intend to or can't keep. I don't make promises to anyone in my life that I don't have every intention of following through on. And I try not to make promises that have any probability of being broken. I make no promises that would depend on someone else to fulfill them, or any promises that are so far out in the future that time itself could interfere with the promise I made.

It's all about trust and accountability and personal responsibility. If I am not as good as my word what credibility do I have? How can I be effective in any aspect of my life if I'm not true to what I say? As the Dominant I set the standard of what's acceptable behavior. I can't expect my submissive to be more honest than myself. I can't expect them to trust me if I don't earn that trust.


Tress, in the words of the song.... "You took the words right out of my mouth"

I could not have stated my own position any more clearly.

If I say something will be tried or that X will happen for a time.... then it can and probably will change. But both friends and partners have known that If I say unequivicaly "X will happen" then unless I get hit by a runaway truck or something unable to be predicted that physicaly prevents me carrying through on it, then X WILL happen. They can bank on it.

Any man or woman is only as good as their word.

< Message edited by RavenMuse -- 2/24/2006 9:23:20 AM >

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: When a master makes a promise - 2/24/2006 9:27:42 AM   
truesub4u


Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse



Tress, in the words of the song.... "You took the words right out of my mouth"




Oh Look IronBear..... another Meatloaf Fan........ LOL

RavenMuse.. I agree with you and Misstress here....

_____________________________

Wisdom is knowing what to do next, Skill is knowing how to do it, and Virtue is doing it.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: When a master makes a promise - 2/24/2006 9:49:47 AM   
ProtagonistLily


Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Master is in charge. Master gives the final word on decisions. i understand and agreed to this 5 years ago.

my question to those here. Is is acceptable for a Master to go back on a promise? Is Master above keeping promises? little promises like a promise to fix the truck. or a big promise like to sepnd more time on us.


YMMV on this one...

No man (or woman) is above the law. If a promise needs to be retracted by my Dom, there better be some discussion and explaination. As far as our relationship goes, honesty is paramount. You make a promise, it's a verbal contract. If we need to amend that contract, there needs to be discussion. Sir feels that while it's his job to take control, it is not his right to simply be a dickhead when he feels like it and treate me like I don't count somewhere, regardless of how minor, in the decision making process.

We've actually had some difficulties in this area that have fallen on me, rather than him. He has felt, in the past, that I have built excitement toward certain things or activities or my own abilities that out-weighed what the reality of the situation is. This has disappointed him in the past and I am working to correct this. I made a promise about a particular event I was going to organize for his birthday and it didn't exactly come off as he felt I had played it up. This wasn't an intentional broken promise, but a broken promise all the same.

We discussed it, he talked about how it made him feel and I made a committment to correct the behavior. I don't see why this couldn't be flipped in a D/s relationship. I don't, nor have I ever believed that just because a Dom decides to break a promise or something like that, he just gets to say "Well, girl, that's the way it is, period." I suppose he could say that, but with me, his stock would significantly drop.

I think that sometimes we lose sight of the fact that regardless of the dynamic in a relationship, we are still just a couple of people trying to make it in a relationship. The D/s component is just that, a component. Human behavior and normal social courtesies should always still apply.

Kassie

Post edited for a sentance that made no sense whatsoever....

< Message edited by ProtagonistLily -- 2/24/2006 9:51:32 AM >

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"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

(in reply to lapis)
Profile   Post #: 40
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