Flaws

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Prinsexx -> Flaws (8/25/2009 9:11:28 AM)
I'm thick-skinned...(too much whipping?) BUT I've been 'hurt' recently by commants here on the forums. Personal commants made about me by people who have never met me, never even had an email interaction with me. I've been 'hurt' by three doms in a row this summer. All only on-line but nevertheless hurt by a kind of callous indifference. Non-closure of communication. Dimissiveness. Ignoring my mail. Now: you might say walk away. Switch of the computer. But that's not the point. When I'm discussing issues here, or enagaged in mailing, in getting to know someone, then I'm involved and expect those things which I woud expect in real life: curtesy perhaps? Ok spit on me, smack me around when I have given consent, but please...I am not in a dynamic with you here on a form. I have questioned what it is, the lynchpin of this hurt, taken responsibility, figured out I am the common denominator and come to a conclusuon: I'm flawed. In talking this through with a dear friend by phone last night: she said that she did not consider me flawed. Adding well yes no one is perfect. But she did not see me as evidently flawed. I'm connecting this to bdsm relationships, the formation of them and the maintainance of them and not vanilla by the way. I'm relating this to bdsm because of the intensity of connection, because of the need for honesty in communication. But for another reason also in that it seems to me that a certain 'style' a certain 'image' a certain clear list of requirements seems to be needed before a relationship can take place. It's like: well tell me what you are into then. Tick box. Tick box. The perfection process. That no one is a perfect tab A fits tab B was voiced similarly in Steel's thread. But my questions are different: Do you see yourself as perfect? Do you see yorself as flawed? Do you expect perfection in others? If no what flaws can you handle, what flaws are actually appealing? What IS the 'gold standrad' you are using? If you are D type would you train, iron out those flaws in an s type? (And I'm flawed ok...and this is not a thread about how I should deal with that or that I need therapy. That's a bit of a stck record?)

DesFIP -> RE: Flaws (8/25/2009 9:17:13 AM)
If you really were as thick skinned as you think you are, then you wouldn't have been hurt by some dude you've never met not answering an email or not skipping a chat session. We're all flawed. What's important here is to recognize your flaws and work on them to reduce the drama in your life. Such as not becoming wildly vulnerable to someone you don't know and could easily not like in r/l. Beyond recognition that the only common denominator is you comes the next step, what do you propose to do about it. In self help group terms first you stop drinking, and then you change your life. Stopping drinking by itself is not enough.

Prinsexx -> RE: Flaws (8/25/2009 9:19:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP If you really were as thick skinned as you think you are, then you wouldn't have been hurt by some dude you've never met not answering an email or not skipping a chat session. We're all flawed. What's important here is to recognize your flaws and work on them to reduce the drama in your life. Such as not becoming wildly vulnerable to someone you don't know and could easily not like in r/l. Beyond recognition that the only common denominator is you comes the next step, what do you propose to do about it. In self help group terms first you stop drinking, and then you change your life. Stopping drinking by itself is not enough. Who mentioned drinking?

cpK69 -> RE: Flaws (8/25/2009 9:36:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prinsexx Do you see yourself as perfect? I am perfectly ‘human’. quote: Do you see yorself as flawed? No. I am a work in progress, never to be 'finished'. quote: Do you expect perfection in others? No expectations and certainly not perfection. quote: If no what flaws can you handle, what flaws ar actually appealing? I prefer to call them personality traits, opposed to flaws. I can ‘handle’ about anything, but blatant denial of truth. I try to be accepting of all. (It’s not easy.) quote: What the 'gold standrad' you are using? Not sure what you mean by this, so I’m guessing… Truth and Liberty for All Kim

Aileen1968 -> RE: Flaws (8/25/2009 9:46:41 AM)
No one is perfect (except for me). Everyone is flawed (except me). It's basically a matter of picking and choosing what you can live with and what just isn't acceptable in yourself and any potential partner.

DemonKia -> RE: Flaws (8/25/2009 9:51:13 AM)
At risk of saying something unpopular, I think of 'perfectionism' as a disease, a disorder of thinking. Perfection seems to me to be an unattainable state of being, & its pursuit misdirection from more doable goals whose achievement may be both easier to get to & be along a somewhat different path than 'perfection' . . . .. I prefer to go after 'excellence', defined as doing one's best under the circumstances, & with a pragmatic recognition of the flaws that implicitly coexist with whatever perfection that might be .. . .. . Um, with a smidge of wabi-sabi thinking thrown in, the Japanese aesthetic notion that the 'proper' flaw sets off the beauty of the well-crafted object . . .. . . & it's weird how perspective really impacts on this one. Let's think about 'way too fucking honest' as a 'flaw' . . . . . That's one that can both be an uncomfortable character trait & something I'd find appealing, within the meaning of your fourth question . . . . & I want to add in something about how we live in a culture (the US) that has placed enormous reliance upon the promulgation of 'perfected images' of 'plastic, perfect, pretty people & lives', firstly for the propagandistic purposes of advertising & then trickling out everywhere from that base desire played upon . . . . & regardless of D/s orientation, changing flaws would be just another sub-variant of trying to change the other. & changing the other seems like an unrealistic expectation to have, rather the point is to find those with mutually accomodating sets of likes, dislikes, strengths, flaws, etc, etc . . . . . I have known people who seemed to have perfectionistic ideals that they 'pursue' (ever so quixotically) & that they hold up in their heads to compare the 'real world' against, generally unfavorably. & they are typically miserable as reflected against those holding more rational observational spaces . . . . . . . Plus, perfectionism gets in the way of getting stuff done. Since the perfect can't really be attained, especially in a sustained kinda way, then stuff can never really get done. It can be a cycler with procrastination, perfectionism can, the gung-ho alternating with freezing up / abandoning / dejection / despair / crisis / & so on & so forth . .. . . . One giant caveat to all of the above. There's a way in which one can look at everything extant as perfection already achieved, of everything that happens is perfect as is, necessary for this or that moment's perception of perfection. I think that's more the sense that's contained in the following quote: When you realize how perfect everything is you will tilt your head back and laugh at the sky. - Buddha - quote: ORIGINAL: Prinsexx Do you see yourself as perfect? Do you see yorself as flawed? Do you expect perfection in others? If no what flaws can you handle, what flaws are actually appealing? What IS the 'gold standrad' you are using? If you are D type would you train, iron out those flaws in an s type?

LillyoftheVally -> RE: Flaws (8/25/2009 9:51:44 AM)
Well see I have been offended by people online in the past, I have been wound up by them too but there is a difference in the extent of pain caused by that than someone I know I have one actually, a girl went up to my sister and said hey 'lilly' you look really great she said, no im not 'lilly' the girl said oh that is probably why you look so good. That actually really stung. In relation to do I see myself as perfect? Far from it I am more than aware of my own flaws, but I think that it is important to be able to recognise and attempt to change the glaring ones. Simply saying 'meh I am flawed' diminishes the idea of personal responsibility. I prefer to say, christ I fucked that up, ok im not perfect but I sure as hell won't do it again.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Flaws (8/25/2009 10:08:09 AM)
quote: Do you see yourself as perfect? Oh Puhleeze... NOT! chuckles quote: Do you see yorself as flawed? Yes -- actually, I recognize some pretty apparent flaws in myself. I spend a good bit of my time working on those flaws, and getting help to resolve the ones I can and learn to manage the ones that are going to be a permanent part of my future (like the MS). quote: Do you expect perfection in others? No, but I do expect people to be honest with themselves and with me about what challenges they have, and to be working -diligently- on those things that are causing dissension in our household. quote: If no what flaws can you handle, what flaws are actually appealing? This really depends on the person, the situation, and what else is going on in our lives and household at the time. For example, I have one individual that I provided pastoral care to for several years. I felt that it was helpful to her to interact with us, and did what I could to guide her into more productive ways of dealing with her problems. After a while, though, things started repeating, and every few months we'd have to have the same series of 'crisis intervention' discussions yet again. She always had reasons why she wasn't in a position to work on the situation, and it became apparent, after a few of these, that it was always someone -else's- fault. At the 4-year point, I had to stop counseling her. It was pretty clear that she wasn't really interested in working on her issues, and her situation was causing a great deal of upheaval in our household -- not only because she would leave me miserably frustrated at the end of our sessions, but also because she had no qualms about calling me at any hour of the day or night, getting into situations where I was forced to do things like coming home early from vacation or leaving my family during holiday events to deal with her crises. I don't find "flaws" appealing. I find people who are genuine in their nature appealing. I don't consider being a submissive individual a "flaw" -- but I -do- see perpetual victimization as a flaw. The difference, for me, is when one uses one's nature (submissive) to justify staying in situations that are clearly patently unhealthy, or repeating unhealthy choices even when one has had ample opportunity to see that ABC just isn't working. At that point, it isn't the submission that is the flaw, it is the unwillingness to learn from one's mistakes and genuinely work to avoid unhealthy patterns -- and that flaw is traumatic to a household, so I have learned that no matter how bad I feel for the people who are going through their struggles, I can't bring them home like stray kittens -- it does our family nor them any good. quote: What IS the 'gold standrad' you are using? If you mean "what is the 'gold standard' you use to determine what flaws are acceptable, for me that 'gold standard' is good old common sense. If a given flaw is damaging to my household, and it is something that either is ongoing without relent, or which is stubbornly being clung to with no sign of remedy, then it is just common sense that it has no place in our household. Whether that means that the person exhibiting that flaw has no place in our household really depends on whether or not that person is so attached to hir dysfunction that xhe is unwilling to curb it. quote: If you are D type would you train, iron out those flaws in an s type? I might give it a go... but as in my pastoral care client above, there may come a point where it becomes apparent that a particular individual is so attached to a flaw or set of flaws that xhe's incorporated it into hir self-identity so deeply that it will never be 'ironed out', regardless of the amount of time spent training, the depth of the training program, or the level of support given by the household. At that point, it would be my responsibility as the decision-maker to end that situation, for both our benefits. Dame Calla

BitaTruble -> RE: Flaws (8/25/2009 10:10:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prinsexx Do you see yourself as perfect? Sometimes. Generally, it doesn't last very long. quote: Do you see yorself as flawed? Sometimes and if I think working on that flaw will make me a better person all-around, I'll work on it, otherwise I just accept that it's not all that important and learn to live with it. quote: Do you expect perfection in others? No, but that doesn't mean I don't hope for it. quote: If no what flaws can you handle, what flaws are actually appealing? It depends on how close I am to someone. I cut my friends and family more slack than I do strangers or people who I actively dislike but even friends and family only get to go so far before I'll tell them to either change what's making them miserable or suck it up and shut the hell up about it already. My patience threshhold is pretty big though and it would take awhile to get to that point. quote: What IS the 'gold standrad' you are using? Mostly, I just try to be a good person and hope that people are good back to me. If not, they cease to exist for me and once I'm gone, I'm gone for good.

rideemwet -> RE: Flaws (8/25/2009 10:12:21 AM)
Do you see yourself as perfect? No, but I'm not going to fret over it. Do you see yorself as flawed? Flawed? No, I'm not going to take a negative view of myself. Some things I might like to do better at, or more experience with, or more time to do, but those are just decisions and actions, not really flaws. And there are things I regret. Do you expect perfection in others? Hell no. In fact I kind of enjoy imperfections. There really isn't one perfect person, and those differences between people make life interesting. If no what flaws can you handle, what flaws are actually appealing? Lots of them, but severity is a factor. For example (and I think the previous poster was just using it as an anecdote) I don't deal well with alcoholics, although have no trouble with getting pretty plastered now and then. What IS the 'gold standrad' you are using? None really. Some personal standards that I like to maintain but nothing golden or cast in concrete. If you are D type would you train, iron out those flaws in an s type? I'd certainly let someone know what annoyed me. D vs. M comes up here. To me, Master means 24/7 rights to do what I'd want within agreed limits, and I'm not interested in that, in part because I like the challenge of sparring verbally (realtime, in online interaction I tend toward the more factual). D means I'm dominant 24/7 but still respect someones basic personality You've implied that several online contacts were what got you started thing along these lines. One thing that I know is that I enjoy CM from a reading perspective with some posting, but its really a contemplative process for me, whereas I need real-time interaction if I'm even considering something that would involve more than just talking. I don't really look at any online interaction as prelude to anything real, to put it another way I only flirt online with people I already know fairly well. (insert whatever bdsm term works better than the vanilla implication of flirt)

porcelaine -> RE: Flaws (8/25/2009 11:27:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prinsexx I'm thick-skinned...(too much whipping?) BUT I've been 'hurt' recently by comments here on the forums. Personal comments made about me by people who have never met me, never even had an email interaction with me. i'm sorry to hear some of your experiences have been unpleasant. as much as we'd prefer not to have this occur, comments will be made that can be off putting, down right insulting, or taken out of the context in which they were intended. if you've experienced either i wonder if you've addressed this with the author to confirm your suspicions? quote: I've been 'hurt' by three doms in a row this summer. All only on-line but nevertheless hurt by a kind of callous indifference. Non-closure of communication. Dismissiveness. Ignoring my mail. i won't discount or negate what you felt, i believe feelings are real. however, it is possible that expectations were involved, attachment, and an unwillingness to consciously recognize and at times accept that the written word can be diametrically different from what the person means. in other words desires change, assuming they were in existence. nonetheless i do understand and have experienced the same. in those instances i'm forced to turn my gaze from the other party and back to myself and have a much needed heart to heart. in all instances the dialogue can only be as genuine and real as the other party permits. it takes two and you can't exchange with someone that doesn't wish to do the same. quote: Now: you might say walk away. Switch of the computer. But that's not the point. When I'm discussing issues here, or engaged in mailing, in getting to know someone, then I'm involved and expect those things which I would expect in real life: courtesy perhaps? Ok spit on me, smack me around when I have given consent, but please...I am not in a dynamic with you here on a form. therein lies part of the problem. allow me to preface this comment by openly stating i view expectations from a slave's point of view. nonetheless i have written extensively about the subject and spent years overcoming and continuing at present to address my own. just like the weather changes, people do as well. if i attach myself to a particular outcome at some point i'm going to be disappointed and depending on the circumstances truly disheartened. i have gone through both and learned through much pain and more tears than i can count that i simply cannot live in that manner. it is counterproductive to me as a person, self-destructive on many levels, and very harmful to the slave mindset and m/s dynamic. it places undue pressure on everyone to perform as stated/expected or whatever notion we've conjured in our head. i made peace with the fact that life offers no guarantee. when i released this and simply allowed things to unfold as they should and chose to live in the moment, not moments ahead, i found joy and peaceful tranquility. yes, in an ideal world we'd be kind and courteous and be mindful of the things we say and do in all occasions. but that is not realistic and interacting in this manner will lead to misunderstandings. if these things are not communicated to the alleged when the offense occurs, the other party has no opportunity to explain. in regard to those that you viewed as dismissive, i'd see the behavior as an indication of what would surely follow if involvement ensued. when someone desires your company and anticipates or experiences a delay in response he will make certain that this is communicated. if you find yourself in situations where time passes and nothing is said, as uncomfortable as that is his silence is your answer. yes it is disheartening particularly if you felt the person was sincere. perhaps that was never the case or he simply is no longer interested. quote: I have questioned what it is, the lynchpin of this hurt, taken responsibility, figured out I am the common denominator and come to a conclusion: I'm flawed. while i don't know you at all, i believe your conclusion feels justifiably correct 'right now' and will probably change later on. you're correct to view the patterns and the outcomes that follow. seeking the root of our behavior and why we do what we do is a hallmark of the submissive process. it isn't merely enough to act but you should have some understanding as to why you're acting or failing to act at a given moment. i believe you're allowing these experiences to cast your person in a negative light rather than pinpointing the behaviors instead. you cannot accept responsibility for what others do, only the things you've said and done that contributed. you must focus on your part, not theirs. quote: But for another reason also in that it seems to me that a certain 'style' a certain 'image' a certain clear list of requirements seems to be needed before a relationship can take place. It's like: well tell me what you are into then. Tick box. Tick box. The perfection process. everyone has preferences and elements of relating that they need to feel comfortably fulfilled in a partnership. that part is normal and i would hope you would embrace it wholeheartedly. now you must ask yourself how rigidly attached you are to those boxes and if you've allowed some flexibility or different options for yourself should they appear. there is another possibility and it could reflect a fear of commitment. sometimes the idea of something is far more appealing than its reality. in theory you're aware perfection doesn't exist. but as long as you allow these ideas to be the standard by which all potential suitors are judged, it is unlikely many if any will come close. they will inevitably fall short. which brings about a question that you must ask yourself. what are you getting out of this? the mechanism serves a purpose or you would have abandoned it. in regard to the questions posed: Do you see yourself as perfect? no, i sincerely consider myself a masterpiece in the making instead. Do you see yourself as flawed? no i don't. i believe i err, will fail, and on many occasions sincerely fuck up. but as long as an effort and commitment towards change, growth, and overall evolution exists, there's hope. Do you expect perfection in others? no, i expect they will do the very things i mentioned above in addition to bringing a host of other emotions and experiences to my life. i love them as they are, see them as they can be, and accept that may never come to pass. but i continue to love them nonetheless. If no what flaws can you handle, what flaws are actually appealing? vulnerability and brutal honesty are things i prefer. i sincerely love a man that can gaze into my eyes when he is at his weakest and ask for and allow me to help. i like someone that is able to admit, accept, and seeks to overcome their mistakes and shortcomings. they are part of life and we all have them. i value someone that can stand still, but should he veer off course and run away out of fear, frustration, or anger, i appreciate his willingness to return and say let's try again. What IS the 'gold standard' you are using? i'm truthfully coloring outside the lines and learning to become more flexible. i have said no to things that i realized in hindsight could have been very fulfilling and enriched my life in some capacity. i've moved away from the check boxes and make an attempt to see the whole person instead. i suppose i'm opting to focus on all that he has as opposed to the nuances he may lack. that doesn't mean i'm willing to accept any and everything, but truthfully implies i realized i've made mistakes and probably cheated myself in the process. If you are D type would you train, iron out those flaws in an s type? it is my sincerest belief that the dominant can only do what the submissive/slave is willing to permit. if i have no desire to confront these issues and elect to ignore or deny their existence, all the efforts and behavior modification tools in the world won't change a person that isn't wholly committed to it. while we can be one another's mirror, he reflects those things i already knew were in existence, but lacked the discipline, desire, courage, or inspiration to address. i sincerely hope your period of introspection yields the growth you seek. porcelaine

Apocalypso -> RE: Flaws (8/25/2009 11:35:25 AM)
Am I perfect? No. Do I care what people I'm not emotionally close to think of me? No. Random bits of binary saying meen fings is not one of my major concerns in life. (And I can happily defend every single one of my decisions and opinions. If I couldn't, I'd get some better ones).

TurboJugend -> RE: Flaws (8/25/2009 11:36:33 AM)
quote: If you are D type would you train, iron out those flaws in an s type? Aren't the flaws that make you..you? If they are really bad..I mean as in making her, the s, feel bad..then I would try to help her. We all have our flaws. If we fix one..we propably discover an other.

daintydimples -> RE: Flaws (8/25/2009 12:04:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prinsexx I'm thick-skinned...(too much whipping?) BUT I've been 'hurt' recently by commants here on the forums. Personal commants made about me by people who have never met me, never even had an email interaction with me. If you were thick skinned you would not be hurt by comments on an internet forum. People here sometimes take things out of context or make vast assumptions; sometimes they can be incredibly judgmental. This is part of being human. We are all flawed. I try not to take it too personally. That you do take it so personally says a great deal about you. I've been 'hurt' by three doms in a row this summer. All only on-line but nevertheless hurt by a kind of callous indifference. Non-closure of communication. Dimissiveness. Ignoring my mail. Now: you might say walk away. Switch of the computer. But that's not the point. When I'm discussing issues here, or enagaged in mailing, in getting to know someone, then I'm involved and expect those things which I woud expect in real life: curtesy perhaps? Ok spit on me, smack me around when I have given consent, but please...I am not in a dynamic with you here on a form. I have questioned what it is, the lynchpin of this hurt, taken responsibility, figured out I am the common denominator and come to a conclusuon: I'm flawed. Three doms in a row this summer....seems like a lot to me. That tells me you invest too soon w/o having even met the person, and then when it doesn't work out, you jump right into a new relationship. Can you live w/o a man in your life? If not why not? I don't mean to be overly harsh here, but you put it out there, so I'm giving you the benefit of my wisdom, such as it is. Until you can be happy alone, you can never be happy with another. Once you hit a certain age, it does make it tough (I know this, I am five years older). You are more than aware that time is racing by. But until you can be okay with the fact that it just might not happen in your lifetime, you will not achieve any inner peace. Seriously, take some time to work on being happy with who and where you are now. I have no wish to hurt you, but from your forum posts you come across as an overly-needy drama queen. A 25 year old might be able to get away with that, it's not going to fly at 50. You also come across as a very empathetic, intelligent, creative woman who has a lot to offer. But in my opinion your "I have to have a man" neediness is really getting in the way. In talking this through with a dear friend by phone last night: she said that she did not consider me flawed. Adding well yes no one is perfect. But she did not see me as evidently flawed. I'm connecting this to bdsm relationships, the formation of them and the maintainance of them and not vanilla by the way. I'm relating this to bdsm because of the intensity of connection, because of the need for honesty in communication. But for another reason also in that it seems to me that a certain 'style' a certain 'image' a certain clear list of requirements seems to be needed before a relationship can take place. It's like: well tell me what you are into then. Tick box. Tick box. The perfection process. That no one is a perfect tab A fits tab B was voiced similarly in Steel's thread. But my questions are different: Do you see yourself as perfect? Far from it. Do you see yorself as flawed? Fatally. Do you expect perfection in others? No one is perfect, so no. If no what flaws can you handle, what flaws are actually appealing? I need honesty to feel secure in a relationship, the rest of it we can talk about. What IS the 'gold standrad' you are using? See above. If you are D type would you train, iron out those flaws in an s type? Since I switch, I'm going to answer this one too. Some flaws can be ironed out, other have to be accepted. It depends on the flaw. Mileage is going to vary on that. (And I'm flawed ok...and this is not a thread about how I should deal with that or that I need therapy. That's a bit of a stck record?)

CreativeDominant -> RE: Flaws (8/25/2009 12:25:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prinsexx I'm thick-skinned...(too much whipping?) BUT I've been 'hurt' recently by commants here on the forums. Personal commants made about me by people who have never met me, never even had an email interaction with me. I've been 'hurt' by three doms in a row this summer. All only on-line but nevertheless hurt by a kind of callous indifference. Non-closure of communication. Dimissiveness. Ignoring my mail. Now: you might say walk away. Switch of the computer. But that's not the point. When I'm discussing issues here, or enagaged in mailing, in getting to know someone, then I'm involved and expect those things which I woud expect in real life: curtesy perhaps? Ok spit on me, smack me around when I have given consent, but please...I am not in a dynamic with you here on a form. I have questioned what it is, the lynchpin of this hurt, taken responsibility, figured out I am the common denominator and come to a conclusuon: I'm flawed. In talking this through with a dear friend by phone last night: she said that she did not consider me flawed. Adding well yes no one is perfect. But she did not see me as evidently flawed. I'm connecting this to bdsm relationships, the formation of them and the maintainance of them and not vanilla by the way. I'm relating this to bdsm because of the intensity of connection, because of the need for honesty in communication. But for another reason also in that it seems to me that a certain 'style' a certain 'image' a certain clear list of requirements seems to be needed before a relationship can take place. It's like: well tell me what you are into then. Tick box. Tick box. The perfection process. That no one is a perfect tab A fits tab B was voiced similarly in Steel's thread. But my questions are different: Do you see yourself as perfect? Of course I do...and I know everyone else sees me that way also. [;)] Seriously...no, I do not see myself as perfect, nor would I want to see myself that way. Seeing yourself as perfect is indicative of a...in my opinion...flawed relationship with yourself in that you are unable to be honest with yourself about the only person you have known intimately every day of your life=you. The last perfect being on this earth lived 2000 years ago and even that figure had his doubts. quote: Do you see yorself as flawed? It may only be a matter of semantics but I prefer to see myself as having faults rather than see myself as flawed. Yes, I have faults...one of my biggest is procrastination but there are others. I work to minimize the important ones while understanding that once they are in place, they are difficult to overcome. But I apply discipline to myself and work to defeat them or at least harness them to a level that I consider manageable. One of the ways I've taken to dealing with my procrastination is by imposing a time limit on myself for getting things done. So far, it seems to be working but I experience the occasional setback. I'm human. quote: Do you expect perfection in others? How hypocritical would it be to accept imperfection in myself and yet expect perfection in others? Do I expect others, especially a submissive type who wants to be with me, to be totally compatible in terms of faults? No, because total compatibility/similarity in faults would make them doubly hard to overcome. Somewhat? Sure, because I help her and in doing so find ways of helping myself. Do I expect a submissive to want to work on those faults that bother her and can be a threat to the D/s dynamic that we've entered into? Yes, I do whether it be thoughtless behavior or selfishness or time-management or whatever...if it has caused her problems and she hasn't been able to get a handle on it, then I expect her to work on it and let me help her with it. quote: If no what flaws can you handle, what flaws are actually appealing? I am pretty flexible and pretty patient, as many on here and in my real life can tell you so handling of most faults is within my realm. As someone else noted, it is the intensity or depth of these faults that matters more to me than the faults themselves although I have to admit...an inclination towards thievery or cheating or constant lying or laziness or cannibalism would be examples of faults I could not handle. As for faults that are appealing, that's a more difficult question. The faults are a part of what makes a person who they are but only a part...there is so much more to them and it was the person as a whole that attracted me, not some good or bad characteristic. Some people might say sentimentality is a fault. I don't view it as such. Some people might say needing someone is a fault...we've talked on these boards before about being "needy" and needing a particular person because of who and what they are in your life and where it crosses the line into a dangerous or "illness" need. Now some people see any kind of need for another as a fault...again, it is not something I see as a fault and there is an aspect of it that appeals to me, up to a point. quote: What IS the 'gold standrad' you are using? The standard I use is fairly well established in my three basic rules...1. Courtesy and civility 2. Patience and with by these three. To make it a bit tighter, I state to someone understanding 3. Communication...because almost everything flows from these three or can be dealt To tighten it up further, I will tell someone that I am interested in that I will not put up with a blatant disregard for my feelings or others' feelings nor will I put up with blatant lying or blatant manipulation of the romantic relationship to undercut the discipline of the D/s dynamic. quote: If you are D type would you train, iron out those flaws in an s type? If we agree that there are faults to be worked on, then yes...I would help her to overcome these flaws or, as with myself, to harness them and redirect them in a beneficial manner. I do not want to "gut" her personality or take away what makes her who/what she is while at the same time helping/guiding/teaching her that certain faults are contradictory with submission in general and with submission to me in particular.

frazzle -> RE: Flaws (8/25/2009 12:34:00 PM)
You claim to be a qualified therapist. You cant spell, use correct grammer and all your relationships are online disasters. The only replies you listen to are the ones that validate what you think!!!! Look at yourself, then you may find the answers, and please God dont try and advise anyone else.

beargonewild -> RE: Flaws (8/25/2009 12:45:22 PM)
Interesting post Prin and I will attempt to reply with my thoughts to be concise with what you are asking! Do you see yourself as perfect? - No, I have always seen myself as an imperfect person who strives to be the best that I can be as a person and in a manner which I think I should be. Do you see yorself as flawed? - To be more precise...I view myself as flawed, imperfect and sometimes I have viewed myself as being a shattered person who is trying to put the pieces back in it's correct place. Do you expect perfection in others? - No. I am not self deluded to believe nor think others are perfect so I don't expect them to be perfect. What I do expect is for the other person to be accepting of my faults/flaws akin to how I can be accepting of their faults to a certain degree. If no what flaws can you handle, what flaws are actually appealing? - chuckles truthfully I had never thought of that in such a manner! I can't really say what if any flaws are appealing as then I view that flaw not as a flaw but as a unique trait or quirk of the person. Simply put...it's the appeal which changes what had been perceived as a flaw has now become a unique trait of that person. What IS the 'gold standrad' you are using? - Actually I have no "Gold Standard" to go by: I basically observe traits and qualities I see in others around me and determine which I admire and desire for myself and use that as the brass ring to which I strive to achieve for myself. Essentially I learn through trial and error in what does work and what doesn't work for me. If you are D type would you train, iron out those flaws in an s type? - Maybe. If I determine and it's apparent that the s type's flaws are affecting the relationship in a bad way then I work to help the s type to modify or change these flaws. It would still boil down to the s type seeing their flaws being detrimental to our realtionship and/or me making that known and the s type willing to consent and trust me enough to iron out flaws without changing the core of the s type.

curiousINct -> RE: Flaws (8/25/2009 12:56:22 PM)
Do you see yourself as perfect? nope. Do you see yorself as flawed? hmmmm....do I have flaws? yes. Do I view myself as flawed? no. Do you expect perfection in others? never. First, why set oneself up for constant disappointment as perfection is unrealistic. And why would I expect more of them than I do of myself? If no what flaws can you handle, what flaws are actually appealing? Interesting question that has no answer from me. If it is appealing, can it be a flaw? Laughs too hard on their own jokes. Is that an appealing flaw or an appealing personality trait? What IS the 'gold standrad' you are using? I'm not sure about a gold standard, how about the golden rule. 'do unto others as you'd have done to you.' Pretty simple. I prefer people to treat me as I treat them - no lying, cheating, nose picking... [;)]

lally2 -> RE: Flaws (8/25/2009 1:06:38 PM)
a problem develops when perfection is seriously sought for and believed attainable. the biggest problem with that, as i see it, is that since we, personally are not perfect, where do we get the brass neck to assume we can expect to find perfection in others or even imagine its possible. we are all flawed. its a certain sort of arrogance i think that assumes that imperfect as we are and we are all imperfect, we can hope to find perfection in someone else. or maybe there are people out there who believe they are pefect and deserve nothing less from their partner.

olena -> RE: Flaws (8/25/2009 1:19:55 PM)
Do you see yourself as perfect? No one is perfect and I am not even close. Do you see yourself as flawed? We are all flawed including me. Most of us fail when we judge ourselves by our intentions and not our actions but almost always judge others strictly by their actions often without any context. Do you expect perfection in others? No I do not and agree with some others who wrote this is a disease in this society. It is a victim mentality and manipulative on the part of the person expecting perfection or certain minimum standards of behavior. A person trying to control stranger’s behavior or even non strangers by using their emotions as weapons or judge needs to look inside themselves and not look at others for why they feel the way they do. If no what flaws can you handle, what flaws are actually appealing? I can handle flaws of passion, of someone that cares so much about something as long as it does not actually hurt someone and I do not mean words hurting.

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