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Asking vs Manipulating - 8/28/2009 8:46:01 PM   
RebornMaster


Posts: 53
Joined: 8/26/2009
From: American in Misawa, Japan
Status: offline 		This idea has come up in another thread so I thought I'd pose it here to see what your opinions are.

what is the difference, if any, between a sub/slave Asking for something vs trying to Manipulate the situation? I'm not trying to be a smart ass...my slave and I have discussed it and have had some interesting discussions.

there are rules and most of us have slow and/or safe words. Is using that slow/safe word not manipulating the session, or asking for a time out which is as said, manipulation? but then, if a sub/slave asks in a certain way for something which is ok to the Master is she then still trying to manipulate? why is it "just" asking?

or am I getting too much in to semantics? Is it if s/he asks for something against the rules that it's manipulation? but doenst the slow/safe word slow down or stop whatever is going on which is breaking rules?

damn...not sure how to ask this...I hope you all get the point. What is, in your opinion, the difference between Manipulation and Asking for something? I'd love to hear your opinions on it :)


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RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/28/2009 9:12:53 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		Asking is when I simply request something and then let the chips fall where they may. I accept his answer no matter what it may be. I don't push or prod him. I don't nag him. I don't continue to beg or plead.

Manipulation is when I will use whatever I can to make sure I get what I request. I will not just accept his answer. It becomes all about me.

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RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/28/2009 9:13:54 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		I answered better in your other thread. But the short answer is that asking is what the sub does. Getting manipulated is something that the dom can only do to himself.

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
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RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/28/2009 9:15:36 PM   
Acer49


Posts: 1434
Joined: 8/7/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RebornMaster

This idea has come up in another thread so I thought I'd pose it here to see what your opinions are.

what is the difference, if any, between a sub/slave Asking for something vs trying to Manipulate the situation? I'm not trying to be a smart ass...my slave and I have discussed it and have had some interesting discussions.

there are rules and most of us have slow and/or safe words. Is using that slow/safe word not manipulating the session, or asking for a time out which is as said, manipulation? but then, if a sub/slave asks in a certain way for something which is ok to the Master is she then still trying to manipulate? why is it "just" asking?

or am I getting too much in to semantics? Is it if s/he asks for something against the rules that it's manipulation? but doenst the slow/safe word slow down or stop whatever is going on which is breaking rules?

damn...not sure how to ask this...I hope you all get the point. What is, in your opinion, the difference between Manipulation and Asking for something? I'd love to hear your opinions on it :)




Well I don't know anyone that uses safe words in an attempt to manipulate a situation. But whether it is or isn't you are honor bound to respect that safe word.
I would say that manipulation is an attempt of one person to get another person to do something that they do not want to do. I would discuss the scene beforehand and work out any issues. If either party becomes uncomfortable on how scene is progressing, they have every right to slow it down or terminate, without repercussions.

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RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/28/2009 9:26:07 PM   
AcademyForSlaves


Posts: 712
Joined: 2/24/2006
Status: offline 		Manipulating is when you use devious means to trick or force a person into giving you what you want, assuming they would not have do so otherwise. Not a good tactic for a sub.

Hope this helps.

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RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/28/2009 9:27:40 PM   
impishlilhellcat


Posts: 4379
Joined: 3/26/2006
Status: offline 		I don't use safewords for many different reasons mainly being that I don't typically play with someone who I don't trust entirely along with that comes open communication and various other things like being able to read body language or a general understanding, but I'm getting off point. The point is if I were to use a safeword with a Dominant I would want it to serve the purpose of.... safety not a source of manipulation. I don't think being concerned with personal safety is a way of manipulation a situation. Manipulation is an intentional attempt to twist circumstances to benefit yourself. I certainly don't think any Dominant wants damaged property just as much as I don't want to be damaged property.

To me clear cut boundaries work well. If I'm afraid to ask for something or the lines of communication closes down then I shut down. For me part of the point of it all is the discipline/ structure.

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RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/28/2009 9:29:20 PM   
RebornMaster


Posts: 53
Joined: 8/26/2009
From: American in Misawa, Japan
Status: offline 		All very good, clear boundries, thank you for your opinions :)

yes leadership, you did, but I didnt want to derail my own thread by getting in to the question there, hope you're not offended by my lack of response there and bringing it up here to talk about. just an interesting concept.

We do have a safe word and I do honor it if she uses it without any regret on my part or fear of reprecussion on her part :)

and I do agree that safety is an integral part of this lifestyle...that always over rides rules. one can get carried away in the heat of the moment. I'll just have silly questions as we're new to this and learning...you guys are really helping alot, thank you :)


< Message edited by RebornMaster -- 8/28/2009 9:32:57 PM >

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RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/28/2009 10:10:03 PM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RebornMaster
yes leadership, you did, but I didnt want to derail my own thread by getting in to the question there, hope you're not offended by my lack of response there and bringing it up here to talk about. just an interesting concept.
No worries. I think I only get offended when people accuse me of being kinky *laughs*

To answer the question you posed on the other thread (trying to pull it back into this one)...

do you feel like you would have failed yourself if you would have reversed yourself and said "ok, lets go out and get a quick breakfast then"? do you think you would have lost...control or respect?
No. I feel like I fail myself and my wife when I'm a dumbass (which happens a distressingly large number of times). One great way to be a dumbass in my mind is to make the wrong decision knowingly simply because it wasn't my original idea. What possible difference could it make whether Carol brought it up or not? It's either the best plan or it isn't. In my mind, one of the neato things about owning a human as opposed to... say... a rabbit... is that humans are smart. Sometimes Carol's going to be smarter than me. I'm really quite ok with that.

Losing control is a lot like the manipulation question. Carol cannot really take away my control. I have to give it away. More importantly though, it's important to remember that Carol is a submissive and I'm a dominant. She doesn't want control so I don't worry all that much about her taking it away from me *chuckles*.

Insofar as respect, Carol respects me because I'm a smart guy who tries to do the right thing as best I can. I'm a reasonably good leader and, in general, my decisions work out well for us. I personally do not expect to always have the best plan nor does she expect that of me. Any "submissive" who lost respect because her dominant listened to her would be... uh... utterly incompatible wth me anyway. In the end, the decision is always mine. I don't honestly care about all the talk up to that decision point. All I care about is that when I choose, she obeys.



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~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/28/2009 10:19:36 PM   
RebornMaster


Posts: 53
Joined: 8/26/2009
From: American in Misawa, Japan
Status: offline 		I understand, thank you. mine is more intelligent than me too, but she loves me having the control and I love the control. sometimes she'll ask for something like in your exapmple for breakfast but if I said no the first time, I dont want to "give in" and say "ok" the 2nd because then I feel like I'm not being a good, consistent Master...but now we're getting in to control vs manipulation...haha...how grey the lines are!! :)

Thanks for your views...you always have very well thought out and explained responses :)  


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RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/28/2009 10:31:40 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RebornMaster
I understand, thank you. mine is more intelligent than me too, but she loves me having the control and I love the control. sometimes she'll ask for something like in your exapmple for breakfast but if I said no the first time, I dont want to "give in" and say "ok" the 2nd because then I feel like I'm not being a good, consistent Master...but now we're getting in to control vs manipulation...haha...how grey the lines are!! :)
*chuckles* I am the lord and master of my domain. I reserve all rights unto myself. And among those rights is the right to change my mind when I come up with a better plan... or she gives me one.

Honestly, my advice is keep it simple. Usually Carol is sensitive to the overtones of the conversation, but if I need to, I just get explicit when the time for conversation is over, eg: "No mine. It's decided. Now go cook me breakfast." Before that point nothing matters. It's just two people talking. After that point her choices collapse down to obey or remove the collar.

I should note that even if she chooses to remove the collar and forever lose the status of being my slave, I still haven't lost control. Afterall, she is simply executing one of the choices I laid out for her when she put it on. As I said, nobody can take control from you. You must give it away.


< Message edited by leadership527 -- 8/28/2009 10:33:24 PM >

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~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/28/2009 10:33:09 PM   
stella41b


Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline 		Manipulation to me is trying to create a situation or get someone to do something without being upfront and honest about it or by using underhand tactics. Asking is being upfront.

I avoid safe words and rarely need them as I hardly ever play with people I don't know and don't fully trust.

However if they are being used as part of a dynamic and if either party feels that a safe word is being used too often or too frequently then that would to me suggest an issue with the dynamic and that maybe the dynamic needs to be put to one side and some straightforward talking or communication needs to take place.



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RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/28/2009 10:45:06 PM   
RebornMaster


Posts: 53
Joined: 8/26/2009
From: American in Misawa, Japan
Status: offline 		I see your reasoning Jeff, thank you. I am new to this like I said, so its' a change of mindset I'm working on in the transition to this lift style I think to a degree. to own somoeone obviously comes with a lot of responsibility and to vasilate between yes and no's, or no's and yesses, can be done as long as it's done with proper attitude, respect, control and mindset. I think. haha...I would need another beer if I was drinking right now ;) seriously, thank you.

and thank you too Stella, makes perfect sense. there is SO much learning to do. i really am glad mine found this forum...it's already tought us so much :)


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RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/28/2009 11:22:06 PM   
MaamJay


Posts: 2101
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline 		Well you've already had some clear responses re your original question. So I'll tackle the second part and I will do so from my sub side.

Essentially, i echo Jeff (leadership) in that discussion for Master and myself is just that, discussion. What's important to us is who makes the decision. He will tell you that i am the smarter one of the 2 of us (in terms of book learning and academia yes, i'm working on a PhD, He has a TAFE certificate) ... though He has plenty of smarts in areas i don't! i am also a great organiser and have more highly developed social skills than Him. But then i'm female and 15 years older so i should have! So His view is ... why not use these assets? He figures He was smart enough to find Himself a slave with all these good qualities, it would be crazy of Him not to USE them to the full. But, the decision is always His.

At first He felt a bit uneasy deciding what i had suggested ... in case it was seen as giving in or me getting my way. A bit extra tricky in our case in that i have a strong Dominant side and we had to sort out whether it was my "top hat" coming out or not. We had lots of discussions about this, but i pointed out, that it was the same as reading 2 sources of information and deciding on the best course of action from the two. Who cares or even remembers once the decision is made where the ideas came from? The other aspect is that my attitude is crucial too - if i was to "lord it over Him" or constantly remind Him where the idea came from, then i'd kill His willingness to listen to me. That would be stupid so it just doesn't happen. (Well, maybe it does occasionally LOL but strictly in fun and only when it's clearly in fun! Usually over something trivial then). i've also sworn never to knowingly try to manipulate Him and He's more than welcome to question my motives any time He suspects otherwise. As we've got to know each other ... it's no longer an issue. He and i have been 24/7 now since June 2004.

He also has seen that i will submit even in areas where my expertise is at least equal to His, music being the last big one. i've always been the leader of every musical endeavour i've been involved with ... but when He and i started to put together a duo act, He wanted to be leader of it. It wasn't entirely easy (i remember well the argument at the second rehearsal and His vigorous garden-weeding while He cooled off!) ... and my reflection and realising that this was as much a test of submission as was yielding to the flogger! More so in many ways. But i went out and apologised for being cross with Him and said yes, You are the leader musically Master. And we've not had a bad moment since! Other musos are boggled at the fact that we don't argue and bitch LOL! A bit hard to share the secret of our success though!

I applaud you for asking questions as a new Master and wish you and your girl all the best.
Maam Jay although it was violet[A] doing most of the talking!



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RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/28/2009 11:33:45 PM   
WyldHrt


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quote:

Manipulation to me is trying to create a situation or get someone to do something without being upfront and honest about it or by using underhand tactics. Asking is being upfront.

Exactly this. Well said, Stella!
OP- here's an example of the difference. Say I really want a spanking.

Asking is me approaching my Dom and saying something along the lines of, "Sir, may I please have a spanking?" Direct and upfront. He will either say "yes" or "no", as it is his choice. He may say, "Not now", which means I will probably get a spanking, but it will be when he chooses to indulge me.

Manipulating would be if I were to purposely misbehave and do something unacceptable, hoping to receive a spanking as "punishment" for my behaviour. Instead of being honest and simply asking, I'm trying to control his actions through deception and basically make the decision for him by pushing his buttons.

As for safewords, if an s-type is using them to control a scene, there are some serious issues with the relationship. WIIWD depends quite a bit on trust, and that includes the D being able to trust the s not to use their safeword frivolously. 



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RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/29/2009 12:59:39 AM   
SouthernSpankin


Posts: 106
Joined: 7/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RebornMaster

This idea has come up in another thread so I thought I'd pose it here to see what your opinions are.

what is the difference, if any, between a sub/slave Asking for something vs trying to Manipulate the situation? I'm not trying to be a smart ass...my slave and I have discussed it and have had some interesting discussions.

there are rules and most of us have slow and/or safe words. Is using that slow/safe word not manipulating the session, or asking for a time out which is as said, manipulation? but then, if a sub/slave asks in a certain way for something which is ok to the Master is she then still trying to manipulate? why is it "just" asking?

or am I getting too much in to semantics? Is it if s/he asks for something against the rules that it's manipulation? but doenst the slow/safe word slow down or stop whatever is going on which is breaking rules?

damn...not sure how to ask this...I hope you all get the point. What is, in your opinion, the difference between Manipulation and Asking for something? I'd love to hear your opinions on it :)



Just a quick reply to the OP:

Yeah, you are getting too much into semantics, if you want to put it that way. You sound like somebody with aspergers syndrome or mild autism or something else (your life experiences?) that makes it hard for you to "get" the give-in-take required of an intimate relationship. Listen to your girl more and be more open to what she is telling you.

< Message edited by SouthernSpankin -- 8/29/2009 1:19:14 AM >

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RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/29/2009 1:06:02 AM   
aldompdx


Posts: 538
Joined: 10/24/2004
Status: offline 		For me, the threshold is one's expression of feeling. What I term "I speak."
Asking a question -- interrogating me -- is often a manipulation, because it is a scheme to evade directly expressing the real feeling. The vast majority of supposed questions are more directly expressed by stating the real and core feeling.

"Sir, may I please have a spanking?" That is not direct and up front.
"Sir, I feel very receptive to sharing the experience of your spanking." That is a much more direct expression. It demands respect, and includes an affirmative choice from the strength of self will.

Asking a passive question, in order to evade affirmative surrender, is sharing less not more. While it may not be intentionally manipulative, it manipulates by witholding an even more open, present, and surrendered heart.

When a BDSM "sub/slave" learns to start most verbal expression with "I feel...," the entire interaction changes.

< Message edited by aldompdx -- 8/29/2009 1:10:11 AM >

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RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/29/2009 1:28:10 AM   
RebornMaster


Posts: 53
Joined: 8/26/2009
From: American in Misawa, Japan
Status: offline 		thank you all for those added inputs...I appreciate it :)

autism or whatever syndrome? haha...ok....you can keep BS remarks like that to yourself or use them on someone else unless you get off insulting people in which case you suck. I fully understand the need of give and take, thats why I'm here reading and asking questions, to learn, grow and be a better Master to my beautiful slave.

< Message edited by RebornMaster -- 8/29/2009 1:29:35 AM >

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RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/29/2009 1:33:32 AM   
WyldHrt


Posts: 6412
Joined: 6/5/2008
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quote:

For me, the threshold is one's expression of feeling. What I term "I speak."
Asking a question -- interrogating me -- is often a manipulation, because it is a scheme to evade directly expressing the real feeling.

"Sir may I" or "Sir would you" is interrogation? Not in my world, but whatever works for you.
quote:

"Sir, may I please have a spanking?" That is not direct and up front.
"Sir, I feel very receptive to sharing the experience of your spanking." That is a much more direct expression. It demands respect, and includes an affirmative choice from the strength of self will.

Seems like a less direct and wordier way to ask for the same thing to me.
quote:

Asking a passive question, in order to evade affirmative surrender, is sharing less not more. While it may not be intentionally manipulative, it manipulates by witholding an even more open, present, and surrendered heart.

What is more passive, "May I have" or "I feel very receptive"? For me, affirmative surrender is making my wishes known in plain language and accepting whatever my D decides.
quote:

When a BDSM "sub/slave" learns to start most verbal expression with "I feel...," the entire interaction changes.
For you, perhaps. Not for all.


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RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/29/2009 4:57:17 AM   
daintydimples


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aldompdx

For me, the threshold is one's expression of feeling. What I term "I speak."
Asking a question -- interrogating me -- is often a manipulation, because it is a scheme to evade directly expressing the real feeling. The vast majority of supposed questions are more directly expressed by stating the real and core feeling.

"Sir, may I please have a spanking?" That is not direct and up front.
"Sir, I feel very receptive to sharing the experience of your spanking." That is a much more direct expression. It demands respect, and includes an affirmative choice from the strength of self will.

Asking a passive question, in order to evade affirmative surrender, is sharing less not more. While it may not be intentionally manipulative, it manipulates by witholding an even more open, present, and surrendered heart.

When a BDSM "sub/slave" learns to start most verbal expression with "I feel...," the entire interaction changes.


In my very strong opinion, this is over thinking things to a degree that is hard to quantify. It is also just plain wrong.

You state: "Sir, I feel very receptive to sharing the experience of your spanking." That is a much more direct expression.

No it's not, it's so passive as to be bordering on passive/aggressive.

Then you state:
"Sir, may I please have a spanking?" That is not direct and up front.

That's not direct and up front? In my world it is.

Asking a passive question, in order to evade affirmative surrender, is sharing less not more. While it may not be intentionally manipulative, it manipulates by witholding an even more open, present, and surrendered heart.

Manipulation by its very meaning is *intentional.*

"To influence or manage shrewdly or deviously: He manipulated public opinion in his favor."

How does someone manage to be unintentionally devious?

In your world submissives are so naturally devious that every questions posed is a manipulation?

Again, in my very strong opinion, it is this kind of passive/aggressive thinking that has destroyed many a relationship.




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RE: Asking vs Manipulating - 8/29/2009 5:45:48 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: aldompdx

For me, the threshold is one's expression of feeling. What I term "I speak."
Asking a question -- interrogating me -- is often a manipulation, because it is a scheme to evade directly expressing the real feeling. The vast majority of supposed questions are more directly expressed by stating the real and core feeling.

"Sir, may I please have a spanking?" That is not direct and up front.
"Sir, I feel very receptive to sharing the experience of your spanking." That is a much more direct expression. It demands respect, and includes an affirmative choice from the strength of self will.

Asking a passive question, in order to evade affirmative surrender, is sharing less not more. While it may not be intentionally manipulative, it manipulates by witholding an even more open, present, and surrendered heart.

When a BDSM "sub/slave" learns to start most verbal expression with "I feel...," the entire interaction changes.


I agree with the statement of others in saying that the above is more passive aggressive than submissive, to ME.

It screams of being taught to walk on eggshells, because of a dominant with an ego so fragile he/she cannot stand a straight forward request. It is, in fact, teaching the s-type to be manipulative.

For me and mine, I want those that serve me to feel free to say anything they want, to me. My goal is always transparency. If they are worrying more about how to say it, they are going to be focused more on the how than the what. The what is most important to me.

If somone is trying to manipulate me, I get a nasty little feeling in the pit of my stomach and want nothing more than to push them away. I communicate that quite clearly from the very beginning. Constantly it is "Just tell me. Just ask me. What's on your mind?" Or I get questions in the beginning like "Can I tell you something? Can I ask you something?" or "I need to tell/ask you something and I am scared/not sure how." I make it safe for them to do so. Consistancy is also vital. I cannot do the above most of the time, then, occasionally, just because I am in a particular mood, punish them, push them away, or shut them out, for it another time.

I did this for myself, because I need to know they know they can. An unexpected benefit is that it also inspires a deeper commitment and loyalty from them.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 8/29/2009 6:00:48 AM >

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