Real astro-turfing? (Full Version)

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FirmhandKY -> Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 11:15:34 AM)


Organizing for America Bus Tour: Manufacturing Consent

Denver – August 29 2009 – The Obama administration has sent out Organizing for America – the successor organization of Obama for America, which was Obama’s campaign organization, to drum up support for his unpopular Obamacare initiative. The coast to coast bus tour arrived in Denver Friday.

...

These green shirts blocked the north entrance to the high school parking lot. All who wanted to enter to hear Representative Perlmutter had to go approximately 1/4 of a mile to the west entrance. They said everyone had to sign in for security reasons.

...

Below is the processing area inside the gate. Everyone was required to give name, address, phone number and email. Media had to sign a separate form with employer name, etc. I put “Pravda” as my employer. The tables on the left contain clipboards where all the information is gathered. Anyone who did not want to give their data was asked to leave under implied threat of police escort.

...

I asked why they needed this information and was told they must know who was entering the area.This was a tax payer supported high school property hosting public speakers and I was being denied entry unless the clipboard form was completed.

...

Ed Permutter who thanked all who had signed the clipboard form and stated that all these signatures would go on to to Washington showing support of the Obama Health Care Plan. I could not believe what I heard. Never was it stated that this form was a support of the health care plan. I just wonder how many people were dooped into signing this when they do not support the bill or do not know enough about it to make a decision.People carrying signs supporting the bill were permitted entry with their signs, those opposing had to remain outside.



Lots of nifty photos. The "pro Health Care" people had some nice buses. Lots of nice signs as well.

Another one:

Hundreds of Obamabots Bussed In To Raleigh, NC Pro-Obamacare Rally
Posted August 29th, 2009 at 10:49 pm

In Raleigh, NC this morning, HCAN held a pro-Obamacare rally at the state capital. I was among a relatively small but vocal group of counterprotestors stationed across the street. At our peak, we numbered about 70, and most of us stayed through the entire event.

The pro-healthcare crowd was several hundred strong, and for good reason - they arrived in at least three and possibly 4 full-sized tour buses (see pics below). One of the buses came in from Wilmington, which is a couple of hours away, and while I have no idea where the others came from, they sure as hell weren’t from around here.

Two of the buses were parked right around the corner and down the block, so it was no big feat of detective work to follow the o-bots back to them at the rally’s end. The other two (that I saw) were parked in a lot another couple of blocks back, but I lost track of them after they pulled out so can’t say for certain if they were both O-bot vehicles. No matter though,two buses, four buses, whatever…. it’s just further proof that these pro-Obamacare organizers fear what their rallies would look like if they didn’t bring their own crowd.



So ... is the Obama Administration "astro-turfing" or is this legitimate "community organizing"?

Firm



Arpig -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 11:23:01 AM)

You know, if the Dems had put forward a bill with some real reforms rather than these half-hearted insurance industry approved tinkerings they wouldn't need to manufacture support like this. Ah well, perhaps you guys will get it right in 2025 the next time Health care reform comes round.



MarsBonfire -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 2:44:16 PM)

And by that time, the 9 trillion dollar "fix" will have been outdistanced by a 17 trillion dollar debt in healthcare alone... Thanks again, GOP!



tazzygirl -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 3:25:36 PM)

Im confused.. sorta. are you saying that if people who support Obama climb on a bus and tour, they are astroturfing?



Leiren -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 3:28:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

And by that time, the 9 trillion dollar "fix" will have been outdistanced by a 17 trillion dollar debt in healthcare alone... Thanks again, GOP!


Honestly, I think you're blaming the wrong party. There's a steady and growing trend away from both the Democratic and Republican parties. I have never identified with either party, and from several polls in the last year or so, less and less people are polarizing themselves between the two 'main stream' parties.

Obama losing independent voters is a clear cut example that less and less people are throwing their hats into the partisan ring.



SpinnerofTales -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 4:56:42 PM)

quote:

Hundreds of Obamabots Bussed In To Raleigh, NC Pro-Obamacare Rally
ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY



Here's a little hint for you, Firm.....when a headline uses a term like Obamabots, you can usually be sure that it's not really objective, believable journalism. Why don't you quote some equally reliable and respectable sources of information like the National Enquirer or the Jerry Springer Show?

Interesting isn't it that some posters quote things like factcheck.org (a truly admirable and non partisan source of factual information) and others use the "well if it wasn't true they couldn't put it on the web" approach to factual citation.





Lucylastic -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 5:21:26 PM)

This is different tho huh?
Kirk had sent an email to his supporters instructing them to come hours before the event and reserve seats in the small meeting room. Health Care reformers and undecided constituents who did not know to come hours early were largely left out. To appear to open up the event to all, Kirk added a second meeting just after the initial one, but that event required a ticket, and tickets were handed out mostly to supporters. So, for both sessions, the room was heavily stacked in Kirk's favor. In fact, many questioners were on a first name basis with the aid who was holding the microphone for the question and answer session.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 5:22:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

Hundreds of Obamabots Bussed In To Raleigh, NC Pro-Obamacare Rally
ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY



Here's a little hint for you, Firm.....when a headline uses a term like Obamabots, you can usually be sure that it's not really objective, believable journalism. Why don't you quote some equally reliable and respectable sources of information like the National Enquirer or the Jerry Springer Show?

Interesting isn't it that some posters quote things like factcheck.org (a truly admirable and non partisan source of factual information) and others use the "well if it wasn't true they couldn't put it on the web" approach to factual citation.

Of course it's always important to know the source, however, argue with the facts.

Sometimes, the only reason that there is anything at all written about these type of things, is that they aren't considered "newsworthy" by many of the mainline media companies (Kinda like the National Enquirer was the only paper which consistently dogged the Edwards affair story, which was almost totally ignored by the rest of the media), and only the people who actually showed up, had their eyes open, and a website to talk about it get their reportage out to the rest of us.

So, that being said, do you have anything of value to add to the thread?

Firm



FirmhandKY -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 5:25:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

This is different tho huh?
Kirk had sent an email to his supporters instructing them to come hours before the event and reserve seats in the small meeting room. Health Care reformers and undecided constituents who did not know to come hours early were largely left out. To appear to open up the event to all, Kirk added a second meeting just after the initial one, but that event required a ticket, and tickets were handed out mostly to supporters. So, for both sessions, the room was heavily stacked in Kirk's favor. In fact, many questioners were on a first name basis with the aid who was holding the microphone for the question and answer session.

And this addresses my question in the OP, how, exactly?

Firm



tazzygirl -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 5:27:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

This is different tho huh?
Kirk had sent an email to his supporters instructing them to come hours before the event and reserve seats in the small meeting room. Health Care reformers and undecided constituents who did not know to come hours early were largely left out. To appear to open up the event to all, Kirk added a second meeting just after the initial one, but that event required a ticket, and tickets were handed out mostly to supporters. So, for both sessions, the room was heavily stacked in Kirk's favor. In fact, many questioners were on a first name basis with the aid who was holding the microphone for the question and answer session.





From the same article Lucy


"At one point a man from Wheeling, IL, a town in Kirk's district, took the mic. He was one of the few pro-reform attendees who got to ask a question and he was passionate about the need for the public option. The man told Congressman Kirk that he had been a small business owner, but he lost his business in the economic downturn. As he was an independent business owner, he was not eligible for COBRA benefits and he was in no pool. He told Kirk that he was not looking for a handout, just a chance to purchase insurance from a pool like the public option at the same rate corporate employees pay. The man became so emotional it seemed that he was almost begging the Congressman to reconsider the public option. Without addressing the issue, Kirk turned back to his podium and continued with his presentation."



tazzygirl -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 5:30:24 PM)

I asked this of Mars earlier by mistake. sorry, im fighting off the lest remains of a flu bug. So, i ask again, of you, Firm....

Im confused.. sorta. are you saying that if people who support Obama climb on a bus and tour, they are astroturfing?



Leiren -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 5:33:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Here's a little hint for you, Firm.....when a headline uses a term like Obamabots, you can usually be sure that it's not really objective, believable journalism. Why don't you quote some equally reliable and respectable sources of information like the National Enquirer or the Jerry Springer Show?

Interesting isn't it that some posters quote things like factcheck.org (a truly admirable and non partisan source of factual information) and others use the "well if it wasn't true they couldn't put it on the web" approach to factual citation.



Scuse me, FactCheck is NOT a reliable source from which you should quote from. FactCheck is NOT admirable nor non partisan.

How many of you know who owns factcheck?




SpinnerofTales -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 5:33:17 PM)

quote:

So, that being said, do you have anything of value to add to the thread? ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY



As a matter of fact, I do. There is a difference between making transportation and logistical support for those who support a particular side of the issue to participate and paying people to take a particular side of an issue. I have no problem with the idea of those either for or against the bill in question providing buses, box lunches, whathaveyou to allow their supporters to demonstrate on the issue. I DO have a problem with an industry buying people to cause disruptions, pad audiences and generally advance their cause. I do hope you can see the difference.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 5:34:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I asked this of Mars earlier by mistake. sorry, im fighting off the lest remains of a flu bug. So, i ask again, of you, Firm....

Im confused.. sorta. are you saying that if people who support Obama climb on a bus and tour, they are astroturfing?

Not at all.

I'm asking.

Some Democrats claimed that the protesters in the initial townhalls after the health bills were introduced were "Republican astroturfers".

Here, we have a situation, and I wish to know if it qualifies as "astroturfing" by the people on CM who supported the earlier Democratic claims.

Firm



FirmhandKY -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 5:36:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

So, that being said, do you have anything of value to add to the thread? ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY



As a matter of fact, I do. There is a difference between making transportation and logistical support for those who support a particular side of the issue to participate and paying people to take a particular side of an issue. I have no problem with the idea of those either for or against the bill in question providing buses, box lunches, whathaveyou to allow their supporters to demonstrate on the issue. I DO have a problem with an industry buying people to cause disruptions, pad audiences and generally advance their cause. I do hope you can see the difference.

So, you have some reasonable proof that all the earlier anti-health care reform protesters were paid agitators?

Firm



SpinnerofTales -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 5:36:51 PM)

quote:

Scuse me, FactCheck is NOT a reliable source from which you should quote from. FactCheck is NOT admirable nor non partisan.
ORIGINAL: Leiren


So who would you suggest IS an unbiased source of information and news?

I personally do not accept factcheck because of what they say. I accept them because they cite their sources, they give you verifiable information and they deal with facts on both side of the equation. But I wait with bated breath to hear what you think is a better source.




SpinnerofTales -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 5:40:14 PM)

quote:

So, you have some reasonable proof that all the earlier anti-health care reform protesters were paid agitators?
ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY



If you're going to try to put words in my mouth, Firm, at least warn me so I can spit out my gum. I never said ALL of the anti-health care protesters were paid agitators. I never said even most of them were. In fact, I never dealt with the idea of percentages.

I DID say that the idea of a lobby paying for protesters to advance it's cause was a far different thing than providing logistical support for actual protesters with like minds.



Leiren -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 5:44:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

I personally do not accept factcheck because of what they say. I accept them because they cite their sources, they give you verifiable information and they deal with facts on both side of the equation. But I wait with bated breath to hear what you think is a better source.


You're just another example of brainwashed Obama lies. You can't accept the fact that Bill Ayers and Barrack Obama have both sat on the board of 'factcheck'.

Do your own research if you want to find unbiased opinions. I could link you up with several Ron Paul sites, even Lew Rockwell or antiwar.com.

Ultimately, it's up to you, not me to research the so called 'facts' before you post them. Your facts on 'factcheck' just don't wash.

And to answer any further questions you might want to confront me with, I'm bored. As I said, do your own research instead of parroting nonsense. [:D]



FirmhandKY -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 5:44:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

So, you have some reasonable proof that all the earlier anti-health care reform protesters were paid agitators?
ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY



If you're going to try to put words in my mouth, Firm, at least warn me so I can spit out my gum. I never said ALL of the anti-health care protesters were paid agitators. I never said even most of them were. In fact, I never dealt with the idea of percentages.

I DID say that the idea of a lobby paying for protesters to advance it's cause was a far different thing than providing logistical support for actual protesters with like minds.


Well, my apologies if you think I was trying to trick you with the "all".

Although that is pretty much how all of them were portrayed by the media, and Democratic politicians.

So, I'd ask, do you have any reasonable evidence that any of the anti-health care protestors were actually paid by anyone to show up at any of the earlier townhall meetings? Or were even provided "logistical support" by anyone on the right?

Because, from where I sit, providing "logistical support" is funding, as it's a fungible item.

Frim



tazzygirl -> RE: Real astro-turfing? (8/30/2009 5:45:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Leiren

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Here's a little hint for you, Firm.....when a headline uses a term like Obamabots, you can usually be sure that it's not really objective, believable journalism. Why don't you quote some equally reliable and respectable sources of information like the National Enquirer or the Jerry Springer Show?

Interesting isn't it that some posters quote things like factcheck.org (a truly admirable and non partisan source of factual information) and others use the "well if it wasn't true they couldn't put it on the web" approach to factual citation.



Scuse me, FactCheck is NOT a reliable source from which you should quote from. FactCheck is NOT admirable nor non partisan.

How many of you know who owns factcheck?





Excuse me. I find it a bit amusing that you use a yahoo answers site to refute a political site. I shouldnt have thought better, i suppose

Anyways, yes, i know who owns factcheck.org

here is a snippet from the Owners site...

quote:

FactCheck.org
Brooks Jackson

Director, Annenberg Political Fact Check


View Bio
A nonpartisan, nonprofit, "consumer advocate" for voters, the Annenberg Political Fact Check aims to reduce the level of deception and confusion in U.S. politics. Fact Check monitors the accuracy of what is said by major U.S. political players in the form of TV ads, debates, speeches, interviews and news releases. The goal is to apply the best practices of both journalism and scholarship, and to increase public knowledge and understanding.


You can hint all you wish at Obama;s past with this organization. But i have yet to find factcheck being swayed by either side. Until that happens, i will continue to consider them a credible source.



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