RE: Religion Discriminates (Full Version)

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Arpig -> RE: Religion Discriminates (9/13/2009 8:17:47 AM)

Look according to the Bible Jesus is the only begotten son of Yahweh...a violent mountain storm god of the early Palestinian tribes who morphed into a war god and then became the supreme monotheistic god without shedding any of his earlier attributes. He is fickle and unpredictable because he is a storm god and the weather is just that...fickle and unpredictable. He is violent and bloodthirsty because he is a war god...he revels in battle. Nowhere in the old testament is Yahweh described as loving and gentle...his choosing of the Isrealites was also a curse, they were fated to suffer in order to test their faith.

Yahweh has been testing and tempting, torturing and enslaving the Jews since they started worshipping him. The Holocaust is only the latest in a long, long line of historical disasters recorded in the bible and afterwards. The majority of the old testament deals with how he pubnshed Israel for not worshipping him devoutly enough, Hell he even admits he is not the only God, when facing Moses on Mt Sinai he says :"You shall have no other god before me, for I am a jealous god". Pretty clear scriptural evidence for the fact that Yahweh did not consider himself unique...he was jealous of other gods, if they didn't exist then what does Yahweh have to be jealous of?. He addressed Moses by saying "I am the god of your fathers", not "I am the one and only god" he specified exactly which gos he was, he was the god that the early Hebrews worshipped before they went to Egypt and progressively convert to the worship of the Egyptian cults...that is until Moses came up and rallied them,using magic and miracles to prove his connection with Yahweh (at least in modern evangelical eyes).the evidence is clear Yahweh tests his worshippers constantly,both as individuals (cf. Book of Job) and as a group (cf Book of Kings.etc.) he has repeatedly destroyed the Hebrew state, both through divinely inspired civil wars and foreign invasions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiX7MvKtHxU




tazzygirl -> RE: Religion Discriminates (9/13/2009 8:32:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: nephandi

Greetings

So what is a religion then tazzygirl, is it the original ideas of those who created those religions, or do we pick and choose what is part of the religion after what is politically correct to day? What is the basis of a religion, it's heart, and when we change to much of a religion, do we not really create a new religion, with a new set of ideas, based on, but hardly the same as the old?

As for Socrates.Off course some of his ideas have been disproven, but they are still part of his work, they are not written out of his work and no longer credited him, even if they are not practiced any longer.

Society change, but how much can we change an idea, before it is no longer that idea, but are a new concept all and off itself?

Be Well



The best way i can think to answer this is the following...

As children, we listen to our parents/those in charge. Example.... Hold my hand as we cross the street.... As we grow older, we are told to look both ways, then cross. As time goes by, it becomes automatic to do so. We no longer have to "hold a hand" because we have grown in wisdom to understand what may happen if we arent careful when crossing without looking.

Since all this began, i have often said that my idea of religion isnt the same as mainstreams. Curious that no one has asked me what i meant by that.

I see religion as a parent. A set of moral values, a teaching method that eventually backs off as we grow in wisdom, allowing us to make our own decisions (free will). Does that mean we will no longer be held accountable? i dont believe it does. I do see what people call god as that parent, teaching in the beginning, and now having backed off, waiting to see what fruit the teachings will bring.

This isnt a "formal" religion, but one growing in popularity according to many i have spoken too. The bible was written when "man" was in his "infancy". Now, we are in our adulthood. Its time the parent stopped being a parent, much like your own parents. You may ask their advice, if you are as lucky as i am to have them both still alive, but you will make your own decisions. In the end, we are still accountable for our own actions, no longer having the ability to fall back on the "because i was told too" defence.

I believe as society changes, so does religion. As we grow, so do our perceptions. That doesnt mean my teachings of religion have to be tossed out.... sorta like not tossing out the baby with the bath water.




Aswad -> RE: Religion Discriminates (9/13/2009 8:35:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tantriqu

Of course, religion is just an excuse for racism, or tribalism if you prefer: you can do what you want to goyim, just don't enslave a neighbour:


Sounds good to me. And it has nothing to do with racism, though, and everything to do with tribalism. Loyalty to the community that has your allegiance is a part of making that community functional and strong. Acting in favor of other communities puts you at a competitive disadvantage. Acting against other communities advances you. As humans, we may forgive any and all weakness, but reality does not forgive a single one. The evolutionary graveyard is full of those species and cultures that did not make it.

As an example, in pulling India and China up financially, we have put them in a position where they will soon dominate the world economy, around the same time as the rest of us have pretty much reached peak growth in a growth based economy. China has already ceased export of the materials needed for worldwide hi-tech research because they are now at a point where they can do that research themselves instead. There are actually no financially viable sources of these materials elsewhere in the world, and key developments like nuclear fusion will be significantly more expensive without ready access to neodymium, as will a large class of actuators for robotics and a key component of storage in computers (which is relevant to all research, these days).

Conversely, in enslaving African people (among many others), and all but wiping out Native Americans (again, among others), the western world acquired land and set up Africa to provide food for us, although slavery itself held us back, given that it retarded our growth in technology and other advantages with the reliance on slaves as a minable resource. In the time referenced in the passage in question, it did not retard growth, as the practice was less industrialized. That, you may find, is reflected elsewhere in history, too, although without the subsequent fallout of mutual racism and lots of obsession over the past taking up time and effort that could be spent toward the common good of a unified "tribe."

I fail to see the problem. Sure, it sucks to be enslaved. It also sucks to starve to death because you paid your Internet bill instead of providing food for little M'Bebe in wherever. But he's not your problem. He's not from your tribe. Thus, you get to enjoy your Internet, and your healthy food, and so forth. Your tribe rocks. See?

Incidentally, no, that's not the only benefit (or purpose) of religion.

Health,
al-Aswad.



tazzygirl -> RE: Religion Discriminates (9/13/2009 8:40:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tantriqu

Of course, religion is just an excuse for racism, or tribalism if you prefer: you can do what you want to goyim, just don't enslave a neighbour:

And as for thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, whom thou mayest have: of the nations that are round about you, of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them may ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they have begotten in your land; and they may be your possession. And ye may make them an inheritance for your children after you, to hold for a possession: of them may ye take your bondmen for ever; but over your brethren the children of Israel ye shall not rule, one over another, with rigour. JPS Leviticus 25:44-46


And at the time of that being written, slavery was legal. It now isnt. I fail to see your point.



nephandi -> RE: Religion Discriminates (9/13/2009 11:25:05 AM)

Greetings

quote:

Actually, i would not consider that a religious ceremony, no more than i would have considered the poisoning of over 900 people by the order of Jim Jones.

As i have said before, the path to hell is paved with good intentions.


So in your mind, religions ceremonies have to be good and fluffy? If they are brutal, murderous, cruel, bloody or just pain not political correct then they are not religions ceremonies, then they are not rituals done for religions reasons? Interesting idea of religion.

I wish you well.



nephandi -> RE: Religion Discriminates (9/13/2009 11:34:57 AM)

Greetings

quote:

Since all this began, i have often said that my idea of religion isnt the same as mainstreams. Curious that no one has asked me what i meant by that.


Your religion or your idea of religion. The two are not the same thing. Your religion is what you see as your spiritual path in life. And by all means, tell us what your religion is. Your idea of religion is what you see as a religions idea, what being religious is, and to be honest most pepole do not see their religion as a love and butterflies teaching method, but instead see a path to become closer to the Spiritual. What you want to have as a religion, that is up to you. But if what you describe in your post is your idea for every religion then I could not disagree with you more. Religion is not just a set of moral codes, it is a path to understand and get closer to something which are greater than us self, it is a way to attempt to understand the world around us.

However what I asked you was not what your idea of religion was. I asked you, is it still the same religion. Is it this Christianity, or Islam or Wicca or whatever if we just rip out any ideas which do not suit us? Or have we then made a new religion? Not one of less worth, but still new. If I take a dress and cut it up and use the fabric to make a shirt, is that shirt still a dress?

I wish you well





tazzygirl -> RE: Religion Discriminates (9/13/2009 11:35:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: nephandi

Greetings

quote:

Actually, i would not consider that a religious ceremony, no more than i would have considered the poisoning of over 900 people by the order of Jim Jones.

As i have said before, the path to hell is paved with good intentions.


So in your mind, religions ceremonies have to be good and fluffy? If they are brutal, murderous, cruel, bloody or just pain not political correct then they are not religions ceremonies, then they are not rituals done for religions reasons? Interesting idea of religion.

I wish you well.



Just because an act is done in the name of religion doesnt mean the religion demands the act be committed. Man (or woman) can act upon their own, for various reasons, greed and power being two very driving forces, both of which have very little to do with religion, and alot to do with the internal desires of man.

Your idea of religion matters little to me. As i am sure mine means little to you. I merely answered questions as they were posed. You dont see me insiting your point of view is wrong, nor am i asking questions of your views on this, or most any other topic, Nephandi.

It is your right to state your views, and mine to state mine. We dont have to agree. Too bad many cant understand that by putting others down, they are simply lowering themsleves.



NorthernGent -> RE: Religion Discriminates (9/13/2009 12:19:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Just because an act is done in the name of religion doesnt mean the religion demands the act be committed. Man (or woman) can act upon their own, for various reasons, greed and power being two very driving forces, both of which have very little to do with religion, and alot to do with the internal desires of man.



And of course you are absolutely correct.

Any document - including scriptures - is open to interpretation; so a person takes from it what he/she wishes.

You could take Jesus arriving with a sword as evidence of the violence inherent within the christian faith or you could take the countless messages of 'turn the other cheek' to arrive at your conclusion.

So - yes - christianity does not implore people to use violence - unless of course you're predisposed to violence and wish to look for that message in the bible.

Hopefully this same sentiment will be afforded to the Koran and Islam.



tazzygirl -> RE: Religion Discriminates (9/13/2009 9:19:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: nephandi

Greetings

quote:

Since all this began, i have often said that my idea of religion isnt the same as mainstreams. Curious that no one has asked me what i meant by that.


Your religion or your idea of religion. The two are not the same thing. Your religion is what you see as your spiritual path in life. And by all means, tell us what your religion is. Your idea of religion is what you see as a religions idea, what being religious is, and to be honest most pepole do not see their religion as a love and butterflies teaching method, but instead see a path to become closer to the Spiritual. What you want to have as a religion, that is up to you. But if what you describe in your post is your idea for every religion then I could not disagree with you more. Religion is not just a set of moral codes, it is a path to understand and get closer to something which are greater than us self, it is a way to attempt to understand the world around us.

However what I asked you was not what your idea of religion was. I asked you, is it still the same religion. Is it this Christianity, or Islam or Wicca or whatever if we just rip out any ideas which do not suit us? Or have we then made a new religion? Not one of less worth, but still new. If I take a dress and cut it up and use the fabric to make a shirt, is that shirt still a dress?

I wish you well





I gave you my idea of my religion, and know many who share the same sentiments. I dont understand what is so hard about my post. Everything evolves in time, even humans. Yet you remain steadfast in the notion that religion cannot change. In essence, saying people cannot change. In the course of the writings of the bible, things changed. It went from having to sacrifice a lamb in order to communicate with god, to not having too because god sacrificed his own son, the ultimate lamb, according to the bible.

Things do indeed change, even within religions. The attempt by those who do not believe to pidgeon hole the rest of us to standards that are over 2000 years old just wont wash anymore.

As man evolves, he changes. It cannot be helped. So does his beliefs, his customs, his religions, no matter how hard that is for some to understand.

I dont know, is that shirt still a dress? It could very well be in someone's mind if the dress holds special memories and everytime they look upon that shirt, they remember the dress.

quote:

But if what you describe in your post is your idea for every religion then I could not disagree with you more. Religion is not just a set of moral codes, it is a path to understand and get closer to something which are greater than us self, it is a way to attempt to understand the world around us.


I would like to know how you came to the conclusion that i was speaking for every religion or that i believed this is how all religions should be. If in doubt, it would be better to ask than to assume.

But i will show you where i said it didnt...

Since all this began, i have often said that my idea of religion isnt the same as mainstreams.

I see religion as a parent

A set of moral values, a teaching method that eventually backs off as we grow in wisdom, allowing us to make our own decisions (free will).

This isnt a "formal" religion, but one growing in popularity according to many i have spoken too.

These, as i have pointed out over and over again, are MY beliefs, how I see things, how it is for me.... and no one else, except a few i know.



nephandi -> RE: Religion Discriminates (9/14/2009 7:22:05 AM)

Greetings

quote:

Just because an act is done in the name of religion doesnt mean the religion demands the act be committed. Man (or woman) can act upon their own, for various reasons, greed and power being two very driving forces, both of which have very little to do with religion, and alot to do with the internal desires of man.


So if a religion do not call for something to be done, then it is not a religious ritual. When I say grace before eating it is not a religious ritual because Pagan religions to not call for such rituals to be done?

quote:

It is your right to state your views, and mine to state mine. We dont have to agree. Too bad many cant understand that by putting others down, they are simply lowering themsleves.


Am I putting your down by asking questions about your beliefs? Then I think perhaps you are a bit to sensitive.

quote:

I gave you my idea of my religion, and know many who share the same sentiments. I dont understand what is so hard about my post. Everything evolves in time, even humans. Yet you remain steadfast in the notion that religion cannot change.


I have not said religions can not change. I have asked at what point do it stop being the old religion, and start being a completely new religion?

quote:

In essence, saying people cannot change. In the course of the writings of the bible, things changed. It went from having to sacrifice a lamb in order to communicate with god, to not having too because god sacrificed his own son, the ultimate lamb, according to the bible.


Go back, read my posts again. I have never said religions or pepole can not change. I have said that if you change a religion to much, it becomes a whole new religions. Just like if you cut up a dress and make a shirt, it becomes another type of clothing. Not better, not worse, but different.

quote:

I would like to know how you came to the conclusion that i was speaking for every religion or that i believed this is how all religions should be.


I did not come to that conclusion. I asked you if this was what you meant by what you wrote. Again i urge you to re read my posts. For obviously you have read allot into them which is not there.

quote:

If in doubt, it would be better to ask than to assume.


Which is why I DID ask. Did you even read my post?

It seams to me, and I may be wrong here, that you think I am a Atheist or a rabid Pagan or some other who is trying to peg negativity on Christianity for beliefs that Christians have had in the past, or that are written in the Bible, and that you have locked yourself into this mindset when reading my posts so you do not read what are really there. While I on the other hand are only asking, can one change a religion completely, take out every original idea, and will it still be the same religion, or a new religion all together? Try to stop being on the defensive and think I am attacking you, and read what is actually there, instead of what you think I have written and this conversation will go allot more smoothly.

I wish you well



tazzygirl -> RE: Religion Discriminates (9/14/2009 2:05:39 PM)

quote:

So if a religion do not call for something to be done, then it is not a religious ritual. When I say grace before eating it is not a religious ritual because Pagan religions to not call for such rituals to be done?



Many cultures say grace before meals. Buddhists, Hindus, Native Americans, ect. The following link may be helpful.

http://entertaining.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=entertaining&cdn=style&tm=32&gps=199_384_1021_641&f=00&su=p948.1.230.ip_p284.9.336.ip_&tt=2&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//faculty.salisbury.edu/%7Ejdhatley/Graces.htm

A religion can ask of many things. But when what someone does goes directly against that religion, is it still being done in the spirit of that religion? For example. The Catholic Priests have been under the gun for pedophilia over the years. Do you consider that a religious act?

quote:

I have not said religions can not change. I have asked at what point do it stop being the old religion, and start being a completely new religion?


At the point that we allow that to happen. Christians have not changed the spirit of their religion. But, because people have found ways to twist or distort what is the basics of that religion, then they claim it has indeed changed. How many times have we changed the laws of our country? Yet, no one asks if this is still the USA.

quote:

Go back, read my posts again. I have never said religions or pepole can not change. I have said that if you change a religion to much, it becomes a whole new religions. Just like if you cut up a dress and make a shirt, it becomes another type of clothing. Not better, not worse, but different.


And i answered that. If the dress had deep meaning for someone, and it was cut up to make a shirt, then does the meaning change? I would still see, say, my wedding dress even if i cut it up to make a shirt.

quote:

It seams to me, and I may be wrong here, that you think I am a Atheist or a rabid Pagan or some other who is trying to peg negativity on Christianity for beliefs that Christians have had in the past, or that are written in the Bible, and that you have locked yourself into this mindset when reading my posts so you do not read what are really there. While I on the other hand are only asking, can one change a religion completely, take out every original idea, and will it still be the same religion, or a new religion all together? Try to stop being on the defensive and think I am attacking you, and read what is actually there, instead of what you think I have written and this conversation will go allot more smoothly.


Again, you put words into my posts. I have no clue what your religion is, nor have you said. Nor does it matter to me either way. NOR have i made a comment about any religious views you may or may not have. The fact that english is not your first language creates a barrier. It is often hard to understand just what your meanings are.

Your last post assumes that, perhaps, people are redefining their religions. They are, to a point, yet again, when laws change, no one questions of the whole remains the US, or any other country. People change, and grow, and so do view points. The changes i see in many religions are not occuring from within, but from without. Ffunny how that works.



nephandi -> RE: Religion Discriminates (9/14/2009 3:43:13 PM)

Greetings

quote:

A religion can ask of many things. But when what someone does goes directly against that religion, is it still being done in the spirit of that religion? For example. The Catholic Priests have been under the gun for pedophilia over the years. Do you consider that a religious act?


If they did it for religious reasons and not because they where in a position of high social influence and could get away it it, then yes it would be a religious act. Would it be a Christian or Catholic act however, no. However you are still not answering my question. If you do a ritual in the name of religion that the religion have not asked for, do you still consider that a religious act. You said that several brutal things done in the name of Christianity are not religious act. I disagree, if something is done for spiritual reasons, it is religious acts, but it might be religious acts that go against the religion one claim to be following.

quote:

At the point that we allow that to happen. Christians have not changed the spirit of their religion.


Is it the same Spirit. In Denmark now there was a bit of a stir because there was a Christian Priest who admitted that he did not believe in God. He just wanted to be an adviser and help pepole so he became a priest. Was he following the Spirit of Christianity? Is there really that much left of the religion when one take out all that it was originally built on, like for example a belief in God.

quote:

But, because people have found ways to twist or distort what is the basics of that religion, then they claim it has indeed changed. How many times have we changed the laws of our country? Yet, no one asks if this is still the USA.


No one ask whatever or not the territory on the map is called USA, many however ask if it is still USA as the founding fathers intended. If the nation still have the same Spirit.

quote:

And i answered that. If the dress had deep meaning for someone, and it was cut up to make a shirt, then does the meaning change?


Some of the meaning might stay the same. But other things will change. Call a shirt a dress all you want, but if you wear it like a dress and claim it is the same then your neighbors will get to study your naked butt until you freeze and go inside or the police picks you up. The properties of the clothing have changed.



tazzygirl -> RE: Religion Discriminates (9/14/2009 4:18:54 PM)

quote:

If they did it for religious reasons and not because they where in a position of high social influence and could get away it it, then yes it would be a religious act. Would it be a Christian or Catholic act however, no. However you are still not answering my question. If you do a ritual in the name of religion that the religion have not asked for, do you still consider that a religious act. You said that several brutal things done in the name of Christianity are not religious act. I disagree, if something is done for spiritual reasons, it is religious acts, but it might be religious acts that go against the religion one claim to be following.


And i disagree with you. They did it for their own reasons, typically power and money..... and could get away with it. If you are "trying" to get away with something, i would already classify that as a non religious act.

A religious act is what exactly, as you are defining it.....



Aswad -> RE: Religion Discriminates (9/14/2009 6:25:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Christians have not changed the spirit of their religion.


This is patent nonsense.

quote:

How many times have we changed the laws of our country? Yet, no one asks if this is still the USA.


Before the Patriot Act and the like, people were asking. Now, they know it isn't.

quote:

I would still see, say, my wedding dress even if i cut it up to make a shirt.


"Your logic does not resemble Earth logic."

quote:

The fact that english is not your first language creates a barrier.


She is too polite to say it, but the problem here is not a language barrier, but rather the clenching of your mental sphincter.

quote:

The changes i see in many religions are not occuring from within, but from without. Funny how that works.


Indeed. Funny how law takes precedence over conviction, while people like rev. Martin L. King, Jr. have noted (and, I might add, rightly so) that we have a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws, and to obey just ones. Which if, as you say, our morality derives from our faith, either means that the laws do not require the faith to change, or that the laws are unjust, and should be disobeyed, not incorporated into our religion.

This fundamental lack of integrity is reprehensible, and is not morality.

Rather, it is following the path of least resistance.

Health,
al-Aswad.



tazzygirl -> RE: Religion Discriminates (9/14/2009 6:33:47 PM)

quote:

She is too polite to say it, but the problem here is not a language barrier, but rather the clenching of your mental sphincter.


Well, Master, you can assure her my mental sphincter is just fine. and i am way too polite to say much more than that.
quote:


quote:

The changes i see in many religions are not occuring from within, but from without. Funny how that works.


Indeed. Funny how law takes precedence over conviction, while people like rev. Martin L. King, Jr. have noted (and, I might add, rightly so) that we have a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws, and to obey just ones. Which if, as you say, our morality derives from our faith, either means that the laws do not require the faith to change, or that the laws are unjust, and should be disobeyed, not incorporated into our religion.

This fundamental lack of integrity is reprehensible, and is not morality.

Rather, it is following the path of least resistance.

Health,
al-Aswad.



I was not referring to law here, Master. Then again, im sure you would know better than i what i meant. But, just in case.... slavery during the time of the bible being written was acceptable, socially as well as legally. It is not so now. Religion had no choice but to bow to that. I dont view that as a bad thing, i dont believe anyone should be an involuntary slave, outside of the lifestyle. But, i will also point out that we are speaking of writings from over 2000 years ago. Are there parts of the Koran that are no longer revelavant? I do not know, i know little about the Koran. I do know there is much in the bible that is historical fact, and much that were a sign of the times. The history you cannot change... it is set in stone.... all we can change is the future... and that is the change religion faces, inside and from the outside, whether by choice or not.



Aswad -> RE: Religion Discriminates (9/14/2009 6:42:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Tazzy, so it's kind of like "Guns don't kill people. Assholes with guns kill people." Only this time it "Religion doesn't kill, maim, demean or belittle people. Assholes with religion kill, main demean or belittle people?" :grin:


Quite possibly the most accurate analogy I have read in a long time.

The reason for gun control, if one chooses to have it, is that a firearm puts multiple targets in one person's kill zone. There is no other reason that has substance to it. Other weapons are just as lethal, but only a firearm enables a moron to pick up a weapon without training and then proceed to successfully attack multiple individuals in the span of time it takes anyone to close the distance (to stop him/her) or leave the kill zone (to avoid harm). Other weapons have the same potential for injury. Any weapon is readily available from illicit sources. And so on and so forth.

Religion requires multiple persons in order to expand the kill zone to an area encompassing more than one target, so it is more akin to a knife in this regard: one loonie with a knife can kill one person easily enough, but not a ton of people (at least, generally), and not at a distance; several loonies with knives can travel somewhere and kill a ton of people, but it takes concerted effort from a number of people, and nobody alerting the cops.

Face it, if the pope tells everyone to go burn Italy to the ground, he is going to meet with an unfortunate and accidental fall down the tallest flight of stairs in the Vatican, and someone will accidentally step on his neck when he lands, just to make sure. A number of people will be saying some additional Hail Marys for a while after that, ostensibly to ward off further bad luck and to atone for whatever sins may have caused such bad luck to descend on the Vatican. (Anyone in the thread that doesn't believe that may provide me with some alternative explanations as to why there were four (4) popes in the course of one (1) year at one point in time...)

Really nice analogy. Mind if I use and/or paraphrase it sometime / all the time? [:D]

Health,
al-Aswad.



tazzygirl -> RE: Religion Discriminates (9/14/2009 6:48:49 PM)

Master, i do believe, finally, you are starting to understand what i am saying.



Aswad -> RE: Religion Discriminates (9/14/2009 7:41:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Well, Master, you can assure her my mental sphincter is just fine. and i am way too polite to say much more than that.


You misunderstand. I was not implying she had expressed such a thing to me. I was implying that it was my assertion that there is no indication that language is the problem, and every indication that comprehension (whether intentionally, accidentally or necessarily) is the problem. I was further implying that I expect her perception is acute enough to read the same into your replies, but that she would be too polite to comment on it. Finally, I was implying that I am not that polite, in that there is a distinct point at which I feel like slamming my head into the ground at not having a roll of duct tape that works over the Internet, and that this point has been reached.

quote:

I was not referring to law here, Master.


If you were not referring to law in using the word law, what were you referring to, then?

quote:

slavery during the time of the bible being written was acceptable, socially as well as legally. It is not so now.


Incorrect. Prison work falls under that heading, and is legitimized by the exception in the amendment that abolished slavery without explicit sanction by the state. Furthermore, slavery and some things that are effectively the same as slavery, are acceptable in some parts of the world. Also, the slave trade is alive and well, with Israel being one of the nations that has done the least to combat it. In fact, the slave trade thrives in Israel, and is growing.

quote:

Religion had no choice but to bow to that.


Bullshit.

In ancient Rome, a father had to claim a child for it to be considered his son. If he did not, the child was left to die from exposure, and it was illegal to adopt a child that had been left to die from exposure. The early Christians risked being executed by crucifixion in order to follow their religion, by collecting these children and adopting them. It brought an end to the practice of abandoning children to die in Rome. In the USA, Martin L. King, Jr., spent time in prison, and fought against the laws and norms of society, on account of his religious beliefs. Now, the beliefs he fought for have become so ingrained in our society that looking back at his time is like thinking back on 80's hairdo and cringing. It's a radical change. And around the world, many listen to Krishnamurti as he tells them that they must seek their own path, and not be concerned with what the law and norms of their society says. Ghandi led thousands of followers in a protest march to the sea, in order to violate the British colonial laws right under their very noses, in effect telling the British that "I will not be swayed in my beliefs, and there are so many people who follow my lead that if you arrest me, they will tear you to shreds." And the colonial administration folded.

Religion does not bow. Religious people bow. Weak ones, at least.

quote:

I dont view that as a bad thing, i dont believe anyone should be an involuntary slave, outside of the lifestyle.


Each to their own.

quote:

But, i will also point out that we are speaking of writings from over 2000 years ago.


No shit...

quote:

Are there parts of the Koran that are no longer revelavant?


That depends on whether you have divine insight or not.

quote:

The history you cannot change... it is set in stone.... all we can change is the future... and that is the change religion faces, inside and from the outside, whether by choice or not.


Well, sure... be a Quisling or a Jesus... simple enough choice for me.

Health,
al-Aswad.



Aswad -> RE: Religion Discriminates (9/14/2009 7:43:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Master, i do believe, finally, you are starting to understand what i am saying.


You're late to the party, aren't you?

So far, you've said nothing new or innovative to me.

Health,
al-Aswad.



tazzygirl -> RE: Religion Discriminates (9/14/2009 7:56:32 PM)

ah, thank you Master, belittlement always works best.

quote:

Incorrect. Prison work falls under that heading, and is legitimized by the exception in the amendment that abolished slavery without explicit sanction by the state. Furthermore, slavery and some things that are effectively the same as slavery, are acceptable in some parts of the world. Also, the slave trade is alive and well, with Israel being one of the nations that has done the least to combat it. In fact, the slave trade thrives in Israel, and is growing.


Crime and punishment are equally given to the religious as to the non religious. In this part of the world, slavery is not, and that was the standpoint i was coming from. I do not live outside the US, nor would i speak about things i know nothing about.

quote:

Bullshit.

In ancient Rome, a father had to claim a child for it to be considered his son. If he did not, the child was left to die from exposure, and it was illegal to adopt a child that had been left to die from exposure. The early Christians risked being executed by crucifixion in order to follow their religion, by collecting these children and adopting them. It brought an end to the practice of abandoning children to die in Rome. In the USA, Martin L. King, Jr., spent time in prison, and fought against the laws and norms of society, on account of his religious beliefs. Now, the beliefs he fought for have become so ingrained in our society that looking back at his time is like thinking back on 80's hairdo and cringing. It's a radical change. And around the world, many listen to Krishnamurti as he tells them that they must seek their own path, and not be concerned with what the law and norms of their society says. Ghandi led thousands of followers in a protest march to the sea, in order to violate the British colonial laws right under their very noses, in effect telling the British that "I will not be swayed in my beliefs, and there are so many people who follow my lead that if you arrest me, they will tear you to shreds." And the colonial administration folded.

Religion does not bow. Religious people bow. Weak ones, at least.



And yet again you chose what you wished to read. Religion does have to bow to legalities, in some cases. And in some, we chose to lead the fight.

And my belief still stands.... you can argue and demean, and wish to tape my mouth shut as much as you wish. It wont change my beliefs. And thats what many who dont believe in religion hate. I have never said i followed a formal religion. Stated more than once that i left the catholic one due to things i did not like about it. I have also said that religion changes as people changes, as by the example you gave about the Pope. I do not believe he is the be all end all, he is merely a man... no different than yourself. At one time, in history, men and women would have followed him into battle, to the ends of the world. Those days are long gone, again reflecting a change, and a maturity, in religion.

And, frankly, Master, i have been quite nice in this. Now, i am done with it. It is no longer enjoyable. I thank you for that.




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