RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (Full Version)

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mnottertail -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/12/2009 10:56:26 AM)

Whoever that quote was stolen from, old chum, I am sure spelled it with two 'e' s, thus rendering it intelligible to the great unwashed amongst us.

Nevertheless, the sentiment is nailed. There will be no health care reform this year, it takes time to truely fuck this stuff up.

LOL

Ron




FirmhandKY -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/12/2009 1:47:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

I don't think either side has come up with an acceptable plan yet. They keep adding this and that and trying to hide what they're slipping in and they forget that its about health care for the people of this country.




I am reminded of an old saying. "An elephant is a mouse designed by congressional commite".


And you support giving that same government control of 1/6th of the US economy?

Firm




FirmhandKY -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/12/2009 1:51:36 PM)

FR:

Wilson campaign: Fundraising breaks $1 million, passes Miller

A source on Rep. Joe Wilson's campaign says his fundraising has broken $1 million -- and surpassed that of his Democratic rival, Rob Miller -- since his outburst of "You lie!" during President Obama's address to Congress Wednesday.


Apparently, I'm not the only one who believes like I do ...

Firm




mnottertail -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/12/2009 2:12:40 PM)

http://www.examiner.com/x-19632-Salt-Lake-City-Headlines-Examiner~y2009m9d11-Joe-Wilson-for-Congress-and-Rob-Miller-fundraising-debate-heats-up

so a hundred thou now separates them..........

No, you are not the only one, but who really fucking cares about utah? C'mon, that's mitt romney and the mormon moonies.





SpinnerofTales -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/12/2009 4:31:14 PM)

quote:

And you support giving that same government control of 1/6th of the US economy? ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY




Actually, I find myself between a rock and a hard place on this one, Firm. On the one hand, I am deeply distrustful of the government in general. On the other, leaving health care choices in the hands of insurance companies who have shown that their goal is to maximize profits by denying health care at every possible opportunity has not been working. At the very least, the government has some degree (though nowhere near as much as I'd like) to the public. And again, at the least, they are trying for a plan where providing, rather than denying health care, is their goal.  So yes, all in all, I am supportive of a change in the structure of things, even if that change involves the government.





MarsBonfire -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/12/2009 4:57:00 PM)

Fundraising can backfire, too. You spend too much on TV attack ads, and the public has been known to turn away from negative campaigns. Looking at Wilson's track record in this regaurd, it's almost a sure thing that he'll cross that line.

Wilson, who before the address to Congress, was looking at a secure seat, now has a real fight on his hands. I hope he ends up sweating all the way through it. It'll serve the little prick right.

Miller, OTOH, has a grassroots support system set up like Obama's. He can keep bringing in internet donations for far longer... so has the luddite GOP finally moved into the 21st century on this yet?

But, this will come down to S.C. voters. And let's face it, they haven't exactly been shining examples of being judges of good character lately. Will Miller be conducting a "negative" campaign, if his ads just keep playing this high point in Wilson's congressional career over and over again? Is the simple truth a "negative?"




mnottertail -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/12/2009 5:06:14 PM)

the incumbent has a war chest of a million and the challenger has 900k and somebody is couching this as a good thing, why? Rather points out that he ain't doing to good unless he keeps doing stupid shit like Palin did, to get the neo-cons to eat it up.




FirmhandKY -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/12/2009 8:20:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

And you support giving that same government control of 1/6th of the US economy? ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY




Actually, I find myself between a rock and a hard place on this one, Firm. On the one hand, I am deeply distrustful of the government in general. On the other, leaving health care choices in the hands of insurance companies who have shown that their goal is to maximize profits by denying health care at every possible opportunity has not been working. At the very least, the government has some degree (though nowhere near as much as I'd like) to the public. And again, at the least, they are trying for a plan where providing, rather than denying health care, is their goal.  So yes, all in all, I am supportive of a change in the structure of things, even if that change involves the government.



Spinner,

I've been through two "government health care (insurance) reforms". One for Kentucky. One for Tennessee.

I was a small business owner in Kentucky when they decided to "fix" the problem with insurance companies. I was next door to Tennessee when they decided to "do" Hillarycare. Before the reforms, I provided complete family coverage at no cost to my employees. By the time they were done, I was having to make a choice: fire people or cut their insurance.

Believe me ... the problem with health insurance isn't too little government control: it's too much government control.

Firm




SpinnerofTales -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/12/2009 8:35:14 PM)

quote:

I was a small business owner in Kentucky when they decided to "fix" the problem with insurance companies. I was next door to Tennessee when they decided to "do" Hillarycare. ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY



I'm almost afraid to do this but I'm going to ask:

1) Do you have any information on what reforms were carried out in KY and it's effects on premiums?
2) what do you mean by "Hillarycare", since Hillary Clinon was never an elected official, nor was she an adviser to anyone in Tennesee?
3) How did a state policy in Tennessee affect you in Kentucky?

As it stands, I don't know enough about the situation to comment.





rulemylife -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/12/2009 9:06:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I was raised that once someone accepted an apology, that everyone else is supposed to let it drop, or it is disrespectful to the person that accepted it, and offered it.



That would seem to depend on the sincerity of the apology.

In this case Rep. Wilson made it abundantly clear that he was apologizing out of political expedience instead of any genuine remorse.


Joe Wilson apologized, but he doesn't sound all that sorry


"I've been very pleased at the number of people who have told me that what I said is what they felt," Wilson said.









Sanity -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/12/2009 9:15:02 PM)


Call the schoolmaster - it sounds as though Joe Wilson is guilty of having feelings. Feelings of an almost human nature.

Bring down the wall!


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

That would seem to depend on the sincerity of the apology.

In this case Rep. Wilson made it abundantly clear that he was apologizing out of political expedience instead of any genuine remorse.


Joe Wilson apologized, but he doesn't sound all that sorry


"I've been very pleased at the number of people who have told me that what I said is what they felt," Wilson said.










rulemylife -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/12/2009 9:21:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Firm, the middle of a speech to congress is not the appropriate place to make such a statement, unless they are using political theater to manuever with.

I don't disagree, Orion.

Firm


Sure sounded like you were.




rulemylife -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/12/2009 10:01:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I've been through two "government health care (insurance) reforms". One for Kentucky. One for Tennessee.

I was a small business owner in Kentucky when they decided to "fix" the problem with insurance companies. I was next door to Tennessee when they decided to "do" Hillarycare. Before the reforms, I provided complete family coverage at no cost to my employees. By the time they were done, I was having to make a choice: fire people or cut their insurance.

Believe me ... the problem with health insurance isn't too little government control: it's too much government control.

Firm


Really?

Now on a few other threads you joined me in complaining about Anthem BC/BS.

So how do you reconcile these seemingly opposing viewpoints?




rulemylife -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/12/2009 10:06:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Call the schoolmaster - it sounds as though Joe Wilson is guilty of having feelings. Feelings of an almost human nature.

Bring down the wall!


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

That would seem to depend on the sincerity of the apology.

In this case Rep. Wilson made it abundantly clear that he was apologizing out of political expedience instead of any genuine remorse.


Joe Wilson apologized, but he doesn't sound all that sorry


"I've been very pleased at the number of people who have told me that what I said is what they felt," Wilson said.



Feelings?

[sm=rofl.gif]

Gee, I never realized you were so sensitive Sanity.

But I'll try to remember you and Joe's delicate natures in the future.




FirmhandKY -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/13/2009 6:52:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I've been through two "government health care (insurance) reforms". One for Kentucky. One for Tennessee.

I was a small business owner in Kentucky when they decided to "fix" the problem with insurance companies. I was next door to Tennessee when they decided to "do" Hillarycare. Before the reforms, I provided complete family coverage at no cost to my employees. By the time they were done, I was having to make a choice: fire people or cut their insurance.

Believe me ... the problem with health insurance isn't too little government control: it's too much government control.

Firm


Really?

Now on a few other threads you joined me in complaining about Anthem BC/BS.

So how do you reconcile these seemingly opposing viewpoints?


Sure.

It was government interference in the markets that gave/give the insurance companies the clout that they have to screw with the pricing and the market pricing.

If you read my posts where I agreed that Anthem BC/BS should be drawn and quartered, you'll see that I still didn't agree that government control of the insurance or health care system was appropriate.

Firm




Arpig -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/13/2009 6:57:29 AM)

~FR~
When the fuck are all you guys down south going to wake up and realize that a government backed single payer system is where you are going to end up..the only question is how many people have to go broke or die before you get there.




FirmhandKY -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/13/2009 7:08:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

I was a small business owner in Kentucky when they decided to "fix" the problem with insurance companies. I was next door to Tennessee when they decided to "do" Hillarycare. ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY



I'm almost afraid to do this but I'm going to ask:

1) Do you have any information on what reforms were carried out in KY and it's effects on premiums?
2) what do you mean by "Hillarycare", since Hillary Clinon was never an elected official, nor was she an adviser to anyone in Tennesee?
3) How did a state policy in Tennessee affect you in Kentucky?

As it stands, I don't know enough about the situation to comment.



1. I'll address Kentucky's failed program separately.


2. It was called "Hillarycare" informally, because it was based on the failed Clinton model of universal health care. It's actually called "Tenncare".

Links:

Google: tennessee hillarycare

HillaryCare in Tennessee
The disaster that might have been for the entire country.
Monday, December 6, 2004 12:01 A.M. EST

tenncare

TennCare

July 22, 2009
Lessons For Health Care Reform
By Reps. Marsha Blackburn and Phil Roe

AUGUST 17, 2009
Tennessee Experiment's High Cost Fuels Health-Care Debate


3. We were a border business, and had an office in Tennessee.

Firm




FirmhandKY -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/13/2009 7:09:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

~FR~
When the fuck are all you guys down south going to wake up and realize that a government backed single payer system is where you are going to end up..the only question is how many people have to go broke or die before you get there.

I don't agree, Arpig.

Why is a government monopoly a "better solution"?

Firm




Arpig -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/13/2009 7:28:08 AM)

quote:

Why is a government monopoly a "better solution"?
Why is it a better solution? Simple because its the only one that works in a decentralized federation like Canada or the US. Not one of the options that work...the only one that works, the only solution that will address all the problems in the US health care system.I have to this date not heard even one worthwhile reason not to do it, I have not heard any actual studies that show it isn't the system of choice to insure both manageable costs and universality/ And its where you in the US will eventually end up, but given the nancyboy attempt at reform that is being attempted and the resultant outrage about socialized medicine that isn't even applicable to the present bill i suspect it is going to take you guys a fuck of a long time to catch up with the rest of the world. It is going to cost  you tens or hundreds of trillions of dollars and hundreds of thousand to millions of lives to get there, but I have faith that in the end the US Congress wil, eventually come to its senses and do what it has to do.

One day,you or your kids,or their kids will have a card much like my OHIP card...a card that gives them full access to the amazing health care infrastructure you have in the US with nothing directly out of pocket. Would you rather pay $1000 for a private plan or $500 in taxes to fund a public plan that gives more coverage than the private plan does. That is the actual choice before you. It isn't a question of if, its a question of when and at what cost to the people of America. How many millions have to go broke, how many thousands have to die untreated before you just face facts and do what has to be done?




FirmhandKY -> RE: When they all agree, you know you screwed up (9/13/2009 8:01:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

I was a small business owner in Kentucky when they decided to "fix" the problem with insurance companies. I was next door to Tennessee when they decided to "do" Hillarycare. ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY



1) Do you have any information on what reforms were carried out in KY and it's effects on premiums?


Kentucky's failures weren't widely publicized in the national press (who gives a shit about Kentucky, after all?)

At the time, there were many different insurance carriers and plans. Basically, the legislature mandated many of the requirements that "everyone wants" such as restrictions on the ability of insurance carriers to discriminate based on "pre-existing conditions", and the ability of insurance companies to raise their rates to whatever they wanted. In effect, it was similar to the Public Safety Commissions for other government controlled monopolies, where any rate increased had to be justified.

The result? All except two insurance carries left the state (and one of those only had plans in the two major metro areas of Louisville and the suburbs of Cincinnati). The rest of the state was left with a single carrier: Anthem.

As soon as they had an effective monopoly position, they started "justifying" rate increases. My personal families monthly insurance rate went from about $350 a month, to over $2500 a month within 3 years.

There is a detailed review of the entire debacle here:

The Impact of Government Initiatives on Kentucky's Health Care System

You can use that link to go back to the beginning of the entire study, or you can download the entire book in pdf format here.

Here is a pretty good summary:

June 6, 1997
The Kentucky Health Care Experiment: How "Managed Competition" Clamps Down on Choice and Competition
by Rachel McCubbin

American taxpayers and state legislators now can discern how key components of President Bill Clinton's failed 1993 Health Security Act would have worked by examining the repercussions of a curiously similar program enacted in the state of Kentucky. In April 1994, the Kentucky General Assembly passed a measure that redefined the state's insurance market, created several new state bureaucracies, and altered the financing of health care for the poor. In many respects, the Kentucky Health Care Reform Act of 1994 is a smaller version of the Clinton Administration's discredited Health Security Act. Moreover, the Kentucky plan, like similar health reform plans in Minnesota and the state of Washington, affords a growing body of case studies that state legislators can use to see for themselves how specific regulatory interventions may affect the efficient functioning of the health insurance market and the cost and access of health insurance for individuals and families.

The excessive regulation embodied in the Kentucky plan has sharply increased health insurance rates, has driven health insurance companies out of the state, and has threatened patient privacy. With each passing day, the crisis in Kentucky's health insurance market deepens and the need to fix the government's mistakes becomes more urgent. Thus far, 45 health insurers have left the individual health insurance market. George Nichols III, the state's Insurance Commissioner, recently remarked, "I think going beyond a year would destroy us."2 In the individual health insurance market, Kentucky Kare, the major plan that covers state employees and individuals, has lost $30 million during the past 20 months and continues to lose money at a rate that could exhaust its reserves in 19 more months.3

For state legislators around the country, Kentucky is a case study in how not to reform health care at the state level. For Members of Congress, developments in Kentucky demonstrate once again why the federal government should refrain from imposing ill-considered mandates on the private health insurance market.





I don't expect you to do a detailed analysis, or even read all the detailed analysis. I don't even want to, because I lived through the entire thing. I even testified in front of a joint legislative committee during this time frame, on the "reforms" impact on small businesses. After which Anthem illegally revoked all of my companies insurance policies in retribution.

At the time, I was also on the Board of Directors of a non-profit health care providing organization, so I got exposure from a couple of different directions.

You can say that both of these "reforms" (KY and TN) were "exceptions" or "not done right". However, what they do, if nothing else, is show that any attempt to "reform" the system needs to be done very, very carefully. Which the current attempt certainly is not.

Firm




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