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So when did America become a "Chrisitian" cou... - 9/11/2009 4:07:06 PM

SpinnerofTales

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I am honestly confused on this issue. I keep hearing the far Christian right talking about how Freedom, Democracy and America are Christian concepts. But in the bible, I can't find any mention of any of that. In the old testament, God not only supported kings but appointed them. Never did I read of him appointing so much as a school board. In the new testament, Jesus supported secular authority in secular matters, saying "Render unto Ceaser that which is Ceaser's and unto God that which is God's" (A clear and simple dividing line between church and state).

So is there any scriptural basis for this idea that Christianity has some place in our political life? Or is it just a matter of the old "Christians formed America, therefore it belongs to us" logic. Of course, if the idea that "If someone made something it is their's" is valid, most houses in this country are owned by illegal aliens. But that's neither here nor there.

So can ANYONE tell me if there is scriptural backing for the Christian political arm?

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/11/2009 4:49:14 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Hiya Spinner. I studied theology on my own for almost a decade, and never found anything that would support it (this includes three different translations of the Christian bible). Not going to add anything else as this horse is not only dead, but is so dead and beaten that all that is left is an impression in the ground. Good luck with your topic.

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/11/2009 4:54:56 PM

Aylee

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First off, I am doubtful that this question is anything other than an attempt to slam Christians and Christianity. But, here is one explanation for you:

"Those who believe that truly scriptural principles for the state can he obtained solely from explicit Bible texts, base their beliefs on a completely wrong view of scripture. They merely see words, but forget that God's Word is Spirit and Power, and that this Word has to bear upon all of life. God's Word-revelation puts

you to work. It wants to influence your whole existence, it wants to bring new life where death and spiritual laziness rule. You who'd like to take it easy hope the ripe fruits of God's Word-revelation will be given to you without any efforts on your part. But Christ Jesus tells you that you yourself have to bear fruit when the

seed of God's Word has fallen in fertile soil". This is a translation of a passage from Herman Dooyeweerd Vernieuwing en Bbezinning: om het reformatorische grondmotif (1963) p.57 which, in the subsequent English translation Roots of Western Culture: Pagan, Secular and Christian Options Wedge 1979 is found

at pp. 58-9.

Christianity and the Gospel is to encompas your whole life. You do not just pick and choose which areas.

< Message edited by Aylee -- 9/11/2009 4:56:12 PM >

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/11/2009 5:18:09 PM

DomKen

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I'll take some whacks at the spot the horse once laid upon just to keep in practice.

The christian far right may talk about democracy, freedom etc. but that is not what their leaders and intellectuals believe in. The movement is called Christian Reconstructionism or Dominionism and it is about converting the US, and the rest of the world, into an old testament based theocracy with themselves in charge. The movements roots lie in an organization called the Chalcedon Foundation and its founder R. J. Rushdoony. The leading thinkers of the movement are primarily associated with D. James Kennedy and the various churches and organizations he founded, Kennedy is also notable as a cosigner of the 'Land Letter' which some believe is the basis for his claim that God wanted him to invade Iraq. The money behind the movement, beyond of course the gullible mailing in their checks to the televangelists, is Howard Ahmanson Jr. heir to a banking fortune and major financial supporter of the Chalcedon Foundation, Discovery Institute (the movements Intelligent Design face), extreme right wing politicians and numerous fringe groups and more mainstream conservative religious organizations.

Take any so called 'christian' conservative of any prominence and check out his background and you'll find he worked for one of these men or one of their close associates or at a foundation they supported/founded.

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/11/2009 5:36:52 PM

SpinnerofTales

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quote:

Hiya Spinner. I studied theology on my own for almost a decade, and never found anything that would support it (this includes three different translations of the Christian bible). Not going to add anything else as this horse is not only dead, but is so dead and beaten that all that is left is an impression in the ground. Good luck with your topic. ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I really wasn't trying to engage in Sadistic, Necrophiliac, Beastiality. I was just curious as to whether there was a scriptural basis for political activism of the sort shown by the political religious right or if it was a "human inspired direction".

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/11/2009 5:56:17 PM

kittinSol

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Religion has nothing to do with democracy. You guys (meaning: "You, Americans") decide which way you want to go

.

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/11/2009 6:30:31 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Actually the majority of the "interpreted" doctrine is human inspired. I have had many discussions with Christians that do not even know where the translations even come from. Heck, some even believe it was originally written in english, rather than translated into Latin from aramaic. There are actually entire sections of the Old Testament that seem to be complete fabrications, as none of those sections exist in any Hebrew text.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

Hiya Spinner. I studied theology on my own for almost a decade, and never found anything that would support it (this includes three different translations of the Christian bible). Not going to add anything else as this horse is not only dead, but is so dead and beaten that all that is left is an impression in the ground. Good luck with your topic. ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I really wasn't trying to engage in Sadistic, Necrophiliac, Beastiality. I was just curious as to whether there was a scriptural basis for political activism of the sort shown by the political religious right or if it was a "human inspired direction".

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/11/2009 6:36:11 PM

tazzygirl

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I was always under the belief the bible was written in three languages.

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/11/2009 6:59:56 PM

OrionTheWolf

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The portions that had the most misinterpretation were aramaic. It is primarily in Hebrew, with some in aramaic. Jerome's interpretations had many inaccuracies, that may have been influenced with personal belief, as many translators will testify that your mindset has much to do with translation. I probably should have explained that better. There is actually a very good book about the translation of the bible, written from a translators perspective, but cannot remember the name.

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/11/2009 7:25:43 PM

tazzygirl

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What about greek?

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/11/2009 8:03:27 PM

popeye1250

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Well, the founding fathers were all christian.
Had they been hindus this would probably be a hindu country. That's the short answer.

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/11/2009 8:07:06 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

Well, the founding fathers were all christian.

No, they weren't. They were Deists.

Enlightenment ones at that.

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/11/2009 8:11:20 PM

GoddessImaginos

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Well, the founding fathers were all christian.

No, they weren't. They were Deists.

Enlightenment ones at that.

I daresay. I have read in several places how the Adamses were Masons. I usually disprefer to offer insights and comments without links and things to back them up, but My gut says go with it this time..

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/11/2009 8:11:34 PM

kittencaboodle

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The drafters of the Constitution were "deists," not Christians. They believed that there was some sort of "Supreme Intelligence" guiding the universe, but didn't put a whole lot of stock in the whole Jesus/rising from the dead thing.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States

Jefferson was a notorious "anti-religious" person (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-clericalism and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible) who tried to remove the "supernatural" from "religious."

Regardless, it's not quite right to say that the founding fathers were Christian. While some who signed the Declaration of Independence were, it was written by deists.

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/11/2009 9:00:24 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Much of the New Testament is written in Greek, but mainly much of that was the translation of the person writing down a recounted story. You have to remember that much of it was stories, or recounting things verbally. So often it was Hebrew being spoken, while someone transcribed in Greek. You must understand that much of the New Testament was well after the events, and were often written in a more common form of Greek, and many scholars did not find the words familiar, and often inserted what they felt was intended. Finding a copy of Young's Analytical Concordance is very helpful in a more analytical approach to the translations of the bible. The YLT translation is one of the versions I read and studied, along with the KJV and my favorite is the Darby translation.

" The "Old Testament" was, of course written in Hebrew (except for a few chapters and verses in Aramaic) and this text was preserved with care and is the basis of Old Testament translations into English and other languages."

" When Alexander conquered the Persians, Greek became the language of the empire. As more people became Greek-speaking it was necessary to translate the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek. "

" Before one can study the Bible, the words making up the text must be established. Since the Bible was copied and recopied by hand for centuries the manuscripts vary in some details. These variant readings have to be examined to choose which is the most likely to be original. "

http://www.bible.gen.nz/

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

What about greek?

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/11/2009 9:08:49 PM

OrionTheWolf

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This may help:

20 GREATEST NAMES OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION

John Adams - Spoke favorably of Freemasonry -- never joined
Samuel Adams - (Close and principle associate of Hancock, Revere & other Masons
Ethan Allen - Mason
Edmund Burke - Mason
John Claypoole - Mason
William Daws - Mason
Benjamin Franklin - Mason
Nathan Hale - No evidence of Masonic connections
John Hancock - Mason
Benjamin Harrison - No evidence of Masonic connections
Patrick Henry - No evidence of Masonic connections
Thomas Jefferson - Deist with some evidence of Masonic connections
John Paul Jones - Mason
Francis Scott Key - No evidence of Masonic connections
Robert Livingston - Mason
James Madison - Some evidence of Masonic membership
Thomas Paine - Humanist
Paul Revere - Mason
Colonel Benjamin Tupper - Mason
George Washington - Mason
Daniel Webster - Some evidence of Masonic connections

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/mashist.htm

" Historical evidence militates against the view that those who formulated the fundamental documents of American government were Christians. To the contrary, not a few who wrote and signed the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation and the U. S. Constitution were Deists, Theists and Freemasons. Webster's Dictionary defines "theism" and "deism": "

http://watch.pair.com/mason.html#fathers

Some quotes from the founding fathers on religion, though some I had researched are out of context:

http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/dispatch/fathers_quote2.htm

There are several religious sites that declare certain things to be true, but I strongly suggest to all, to find the original quotes from a history book or edu site, and you will see the context they are spoken in, and further writings that do not support the quote if taken stand alone.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessImaginos

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Well, the founding fathers were all christian.

No, they weren't. They were Deists.

Enlightenment ones at that.

I daresay. I have read in several places how the Adamses were Masons. I usually disprefer to offer insights and comments without links and things to back them up, but My gut says go with it this time..

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When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/11/2009 9:11:16 PM

GoddessImaginos

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

This may help:

20 GREATEST NAMES OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION

John Adams - Spoke favorably of Freemasonry -- never joined

Samuel Adams - (Close and principle associate of Hancock, Revere & other Masons

Ethan Allen - Mason

Edmund Burke - Mason

John Claypoole - Mason

William Daws - Mason

Benjamin Franklin - Mason

Nathan Hale - No evidence of Masonic connections

John Hancock - Mason

Benjamin Harrison - No evidence of Masonic connections

Patrick Henry - No evidence of Masonic connections

Thomas Jefferson - Deist with some evidence of Masonic connections

John Paul Jones - Mason

Francis Scott Key - No evidence of Masonic connections

Robert Livingston - Mason

James Madison - Some evidence of Masonic membership

Thomas Paine - Humanist

Paul Revere - Mason

Colonel Benjamin Tupper - Mason

George Washington - Mason

Daniel Webster - Some evidence of Masonic connections

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/mashist.htm

" Historical evidence militates against the view that those who formulated the fundamental documents of American government were Christians. To the contrary, not a few who wrote and signed the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation and the U. S. Constitution were Deists, Theists and Freemasons. Webster's Dictionary defines "theism" and "deism": "

http://watch.pair.com/mason.html#fathers

Some quotes from the founding fathers on religion, though some I had researched are out of context:

http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/dispatch/fathers_quote2.htm

There are several religious sites that declare certain things to be true, but I strongly suggest to all, to find the original quotes from a history book or edu site, and you will see the context they are spoken in, and further writings that do not support the quote if taken stand alone.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessImaginos

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Well, the founding fathers were all christian.

No, they weren't. They were Deists.

Enlightenment ones at that.

I daresay. I have read in several places how the Adamses were Masons. I usually disprefer to offer insights and comments without links and things to back them up, but My gut says go with it this time..

That.. is one of the best darn reference lists I could possibly have hoped for, and was just what I was hoping My comment would conjure up. THANK YOU, I'm off to read..

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/11/2009 11:53:39 PM

Arpig

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I thought that being a mason had nothing to do with one's religion...am I incorrect?

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/12/2009 12:00:39 AM

NorthernGent

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Depends upon your criteria for 'christian'.

The philosophical foundations on which politics are built are indeed christian in the sense that they were conceived by christians with a certain view of human nature and responsibility.

To illustrate: John Locke heavily influenced the modern day rule of law and I believe he wrote in part the constitution of one of your states and the phrase: "Pursuit of......" was actually his. Locke's views (he was a Puritan) were entirely driven by his view that we have certain duties to god not to harm the body/property/liberty of another. Being an atheist or agnostic doesn't mean the structure of a nation is not christian in essence.

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/12/2009 4:20:16 AM

HatesParisHilton

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People running the parliament of a country (or founding that parliament) are not "that country"; they are a sliver of a slice of that country.

The Founding Fathers were what they were. But when broaches a "country" that becomes Christian, one must by definition take into account the PEOPLE. Including the Calvinists and Puritans that formed a great deal of The Colonies when (like Australia) they were dependent on Indentured Servant labour (meaning convict labour), over 50 years before anyone even SPOKE of standing up to Rule Britannia.

And that was just the POMMIE side of things, as Norther Gent will tell ya.

Lousiana was NOT British, it was nice and WOGGY. And CATHOLIC.

So to be honest, when you exclude a basically minority government of Deists, yankeeland was still a Christian based set of Colonies from the 1600's onwards (and don't forget Columbus was working for Woggy Papists too before that flogging Native Americans into converting).

I mean, show me Jewish Colonies before Israel.

Show me atheist-founded Colonies anytime between Greenland and Iceland (which were Norse Pagan settlements worshipping the same Gods as Norway and Holland, etc.) and The Raj.

You won't find any.

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