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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/12/2009 7:42:18 PM   
DavanKael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Well who's Lord are they talking about Ken?

So if I ever use the AD/BC dating system I'm christian? What a load of bullocks.


Yes, you are deferring to a Christian lean if you're using those letters. 
If you wish to convert to a secular lean, adopt BCE and CE. 
Simple. 
Davan

And if you were writing in the 18th century, 300 years before the CE/BCE convention was invented, what would you do then?

Simply put using AD or writing 'In the year of our Lord' proves nothing about the religious orientation of the writer.



It doesn't matter to me personally because I am not writing in the 18th century. 
I will grant some contextual leeway for older writings but, that verbeage is Christian.  It just is. 
Also, relevant to someone's later post, CE does not stand for Christian Era, it stands for Common Era and BCE is Before the Common Era, assuming I am remembering this information from nearly 20 years ago (Still not the 18th century) when I took my first Philosophy class. 
  Davan


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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/12/2009 7:49:55 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

In the Year of Our Lord, Seventeen Hundred and Seventy-six. It says so right on the paperwork.


Which "paperwork" do you mean? I looked at the Declaration of Independence text at the Archives website and didn't see this wording.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 9/12/2009 7:51:19 PM >

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/12/2009 8:57:56 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

In the Year of Our Lord, Seventeen Hundred and Seventy-six. It says so right on the paperwork.


Which "paperwork" do you mean? I looked at the Declaration of Independence text at the Archives website and didn't see this wording.


Actually, the link you referenced was the Declaration of Independence. In the Constitution of the United States, the oath of Ratification includes the following phrase:

quote:

Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth. In Witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names.


However, all things in context, this was a standard oath of the day for legal documents, styled on the oaths brought with the settlers from England and conforming to legal process which was inherited from our European ancestry. It does not substantiate the US as a Christian nation, any more than swearing on the Christian bible in a courtroom proves that the oathtaker is a Christian, as the oath is not actually a part of the Constitution, but is the equivalent of a notary stamp -- and just like a notary stamp is not considered part of the text of a document, so, too, is the oath of ratification.

Dame Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 9/12/2009 8:58:30 PM >

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/12/2009 8:59:52 PM   
FatDomDaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Well who's Lord are they talking about Ken?

So if I ever use the AD/BC dating system I'm christian? What a load of bullocks.


they did not use just 1776 or Seventeen Seventy-six or AD....what they used was Year of our "Lord".... so again I ask... who was the Lord they were talking about???

Come on...you guys just say, y'all know...

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/12/2009 9:02:58 PM   
DavanKael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Well who's Lord are they talking about Ken?

So if I ever use the AD/BC dating system I'm christian? What a load of bullocks.


they did not use just 1776 or Seventeen Seventy-six or AD....what they used was Year of our "Lord".... so again I ask... who was the Lord they were talking about???

Come on...you guys just say, y'all know...


I'm with you on this.  Whether using Year of our Lord or AD, either would connote a Christian lean.  CE would be the secular add-on. 
  Davan

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/12/2009 9:04:12 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Well who's Lord are they talking about Ken?

So if I ever use the AD/BC dating system I'm christian? What a load of bullocks.


they did not use just 1776 or Seventeen Seventy-six or AD....what they used was Year of our "Lord".... so again I ask... who was the Lord they were talking about???

Come on...you guys just say, y'all know...

Nice try. But I already explained to that that is simply a translation of AD and was quite common on documents of the day. It means nothing unless you're going to also argue that if my signature is on a document that includes a date somehow makes me christian.

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/12/2009 9:05:25 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Actually, the link you referenced was the Declaration of Independence.


I thought he was referring to the Declaration because he gave the date 1776.

quote:

In the Constitution of the United States, the oath of Ratification includes the following phrase:

quote:

Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth. In Witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names.


Thanks for checking the Constitution, which seems the more relevant document.

quote:

However, all things in context, this was a standard oath of the day for legal documents, styled on the oaths brought with the settlers from England and conforming to legal process which was inherited from our European ancestry. It does not substantiate the US as a Christian nation,


Agreed.

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/12/2009 9:08:17 PM   
DavanKael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

In the Year of Our Lord, Seventeen Hundred and Seventy-six. It says so right on the paperwork.


Which "paperwork" do you mean? I looked at the Declaration of Independence text at the Archives website and didn't see this wording.


Actually, the link you referenced was the Declaration of Independence. In the Constitution of the United States, the oath of Ratification includes the following phrase:

quote:

Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth. In Witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names.


However, all things in context, this was a standard oath of the day for legal documents, styled on the oaths brought with the settlers from England and conforming to legal process which was inherited from our European ancestry. It does not substantiate the US as a Christian nation, any more than swearing on the Christian bible in a courtroom proves that the oathtaker is a Christian, as the oath is not actually a part of the Constitution, but is the equivalent of a notary stamp -- and just like a notary stamp is not considered part of the text of a document, so, too, is the oath of ratification.

Dame Calla


Good evening, Dame Calla----
I recently (In July, I believe) testified in a Federal Hearing.  When I saw sworn in, no one asked me to place my hand on a Bible.  
For my Divorce Hearing, also in front of a judge, in June, I was not asked to swear on a Bible. 
Had I been asked to in either case, I would have understood what the intent was but I would still have thought it a Christian bias. 
In the instance of the Federal hearing, since I was there for work, I would likely have 'played the game' and sworn on the Bible. 
In the instance of my Divorce Hearing (For a Marriage that took place in a Civil Ceremony in a State Building where no reference to God/the Bible was made), I would have likely raised issue with being asked to swear on the Bible. 
While I can acknolwedge it as iconic, it really doesn't have a place in a supposedly secular venue, imo. 
  Davan

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/12/2009 9:08:25 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

I'm with you on this. Whether using Year of our Lord or AD, either would connote a Christian lean. CE would be the secular add-on.


Which would be true, if there were an -option- for the secular alternative, but when the Constitution was ratified, there was no option for a secular oath, so the presence of the AD/BC system and "In the Year of Our Lord" phrasing was less indicative of any 'leaning' than it was an attempt to use standardized oath-processing for the ratification.

Dame Calla

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/12/2009 9:11:16 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

While I can acknolwedge it as iconic, it really doesn't have a place in a supposedly secular venue, imo.


I concur -- however, for -years-... centuries even... the swearing on a bible was commonplace, and was not only -expected- but presented without option for an alternative. All I was saying was that, in the time when it -was- commonplace and expected, doing so did not, in any way, confer proof that the individual so swearing was Christian -- merely that xhe wished hir oath to be accepted under the requisite terms for veracity's sake.

Dame Calla

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/12/2009 9:16:50 PM   
dcnovice


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Status: offline 		Speaking of the Constitution, it occurs to me that the place where the Framers would have set forth Christian intentions is in the preamble:

quote:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


Yet it mentions neither Christ nor God.



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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/12/2009 9:22:39 PM   
FatDomDaddy


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[/quote]
Nice try. But I already explained to that that is simply a translation of AD and was quite common on documents of the day. It means nothing unless you're going to also argue that if my signature is on a document that includes a date somehow makes me christian.
[/quote]

Ken... who...was...the...Lord...who's...year...it...was???


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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/12/2009 9:31:30 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

Ken... who...was...the...Lord...who's...year...it...was???


FDD,

Why does it -matter- when the phrasing has no more inherent meaning than "Good Morning, how are you?" between strangers on the street?

The phrase was a habitual affectation of contracts at the time. The Constitution was a contract, ratified with a generally-accepted oath. Who the "lord" was is completely irrelevant to anything, and, presumably, in the person's own mind, could loosely be interpreted by each who swore it according to any fealty he chose to give, from Lord Pasha to Lord Bumpitysnicket to the common derivation for a god.

Dame Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 9/12/2009 9:32:14 PM >

_____________________________

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Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/12/2009 9:39:45 PM   
DavanKael


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quote:

I'm with you on this. Whether using Year of our Lord or AD, either would connote a Christian lean. CE would be the secular add-on.

Which would be true, if there were an -option- for the secular alternative, but when the Constitution was ratified, there was no option for a secular oath, so the presence of the AD/BC system and "In the Year of Our Lord" phrasing was less indicative of any 'leaning' than it was an attempt to use standardized oath-processing for the ratification.
Dame Calla

Davan: 
But doesn't the lack of option of a secular alternative prove the Christian bias?  I did, however note earlier in comments I think, that there was different phraseology utilized at that time versus now. 


Davan said: 
While I can acknolwedge it as iconic, it really doesn't have a place in a supposedly secular venue, imo.

I concur -- however, for -years-... centuries even... the swearing on a bible was commonplace, and was not only -expected- but presented without option for an alternative. All I was saying was that, in the time when it -was- commonplace and expected, doing so did not, in any way, confer proof that the individual so swearing was Christian -- merely that xhe wished hir oath to be accepted under the requisite terms for veracity's sake.
Dame Calla

Davan:
But, as recently as a few years ago, I recall the invocation of God in courtrooms and the swearing on of Bibles and I bet it still happens in places in America today. 
I wasn't implying that it made the person Christian.  I was asserting that it shows a systemic Christian bias that has existed since the creation of a European America. 
  Davan


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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/12/2009 10:37:45 PM   
FatDomDaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

quote:

Ken... who...was...the...Lord...who's...year...it...was???


FDD,

Why does it -matter- when the phrasing has no more inherent meaning than "Good Morning, how are you?" between strangers on the street?

The phrase was a habitual affectation of contracts at the time. The Constitution was a contract, ratified with a generally-accepted oath. Who the "lord" was is completely irrelevant to anything, and, presumably, in the person's own mind, could loosely be interpreted by each who swore it according to any fealty he chose to give, from Lord Pasha to Lord Bumpitysnicket to the common derivation for a god.

Dame Calla


Then why Capitalize it???

Did the United States of America measure time from the birth of Lord Pasha or Lord Bumpitysnicket?

It did not,

So again I'll ask... when they wrote "In the Year of our Lord", who was that Lord?

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/12/2009 10:47:09 PM   
HatesParisHilton


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Status: offline 		I recall back in the 70's and 80's there was some product or service (that made millions and was advertised on National TV) called "Quaker State".

I can't recollect if it was oil or insurance, I just remember EVERY time I watched shows like Columbo, or the Mystery/Detictive Hour(Theatre) thing featuring "McCloud" the tallhat Investigator, or Marlin Perkins on Wild Kingdom, there was always a Quaker State commercial.

(and they were pretty well done commercials, too).

I had the pleasure of becoming pals with a Quaker couple back in the EARLY 90's, and they were the best driving fource behind Wondercon in Oakland, and were COMPLETELY accepting of everyone AND their faiths and NEVER tried to convert,. ONLY offered the BEST humour (sadly lacking in the fire and brimstone set) AND hospitality.


So (since I myself do not know, and feel it bears upon this discussion)...

WHAT state was this?  When did it define itself as the Quaker State?  How many other states where there at the time?

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/12/2009 10:56:07 PM   
sravaka


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Status: offline 		Pennsylvania was the original Quaker State.  Founded by William Penn, in the 1680s.



< Message edited by sravaka -- 9/12/2009 10:57:19 PM >

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/12/2009 10:59:23 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Well who's Lord are they talking about Ken?

So if I ever use the AD/BC dating system I'm christian? What a load of bullocks.


Yes, you are deferring to a Christian lean if you're using those letters. 
If you wish to convert to a secular lean, adopt BCE and CE. 
Simple. 
Davan

And if you were writing in the 18th century, 300 years before the CE/BCE convention was invented, what would you do then?

Simply put using AD or writing 'In the year of our Lord' proves nothing about the religious orientation of the writer.



By my hand, this 12th Day of September, in the Year of Our Lord 2009, Year 2762 since the Founding of The City, and, of the Presidency of Barack H. Obama, Year the 1st.


Pick one. 

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RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/13/2009 12:18:23 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

quote:

Ken... who...was...the...Lord...who's...year...it...was???


FDD,

Why does it -matter- when the phrasing has no more inherent meaning than "Good Morning, how are you?" between strangers on the street?

The phrase was a habitual affectation of contracts at the time. The Constitution was a contract, ratified with a generally-accepted oath. Who the "lord" was is completely irrelevant to anything, and, presumably, in the person's own mind, could loosely be interpreted by each who swore it according to any fealty he chose to give, from Lord Pasha to Lord Bumpitysnicket to the common derivation for a god.

Dame Calla


Then why Capitalize it???

Did the United States of America measure time from the birth of Lord Pasha or Lord Bumpitysnicket?

It did not,

So again I'll ask... when they wrote "In the Year of our Lord", who was that Lord?

If you think AD is a measure of time since the birth of Jesus you are sorely mistaken.

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: So when did America become a "Chrisitian"... - 9/13/2009 1:46:24 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

they did not use just 1776 or Seventeen Seventy-six or AD....what they used was Year of our "Lord".... so again I ask... who was the Lord they were talking about???

Come on...you guys just say, y'all know...
sorry but this is just dumber than dumb. the calendar used at the time to denote the years was the old AD/BC calendar, and the phrase "in the year of our Lord" meant nothing outside of declaring which numbering system was to be used in determining the year in which the stated document took effect...it in no way implies a "Christian" basis for the country...the present date (2009) while now referred to by scholars as 2009 CE (Common Era) is nothing more than a logical acceptance of the fact that the old "Christian" calendar (which had long ago lost any real religious significance) is in fact accepted nearly world-wide (I know in Japan is, or was, an exception because in the late 70s they used to date monthly train passes in Showa years, so my train pass was good for month 11 of year 50...as an example. It is such now, and it was such back then. The phrase "Year of our Lord” means nothing more than to specify which year-numbering system was to be used in determining which year the new promulgations applied. That's it that, anybody who thinks the use of these words signifies anything else is either uneducated or deliberately being stupid...there is no third option.


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