quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Well... interesting...

Bu this question would be raised...

What were the Bush people doing that kept it from happening after 9/11 and what changes did the Obama folks do that allowed it?

I am NOT saying that will be a fair question, it may or it may not be but it would be asked and asked loudly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


The distinction should be clear; conspiracy theories aside for a minute, unlike the first experience on 9/11, "We didn't know this could happen here!" will not be an acceptable excuse.

quote:

Three times the amount of the Bush bail out, the Obama bail out isn't producing............

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Panda isn't a Jacksonian.

I think there would be some domestic repercussions, but I think you've got the final result exactly correct.

From The Jacksonian Tradition
by Walter Russell Mead

Once wars begin, a significant element of American public opinion supports waging them at the highest possible level of intensity. The devastating tactics of the wars against the Indians, General Sherman’s campaign of 1864-65, and the unprecedented aerial bombardments of World War II were all broadly popular in the United States. During both the Korean and Vietnam Wars, presidents came under intense pressure, not only from military leaders but also from public opinion, to hit the enemy with all available force in all available places. Throughout the Cold War the path of least resistance in American politics was generally the more hawkish stance. Politicians who advocated negotiated compromises with the Soviet enemy were labeled appeasers and paid a heavy political price. The Korean and Vietnam Wars lost public support in part because of political decisions not to risk the consequences of all-out war, not necessarily stopping short of the use of nuclear weapons. The most costly decision George Bush took in the Gulf War was not to send ground forces into Iraq, but to stop short of the occupation of Baghdad and the capture and trial of Saddam Hussein.


Firm

quote:

Huh? What?

Please correct me if I'm wrong but Bush's TARP and Obama's stimulus were nearly equivalent in the amounts

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grofast

Isreal has been fighting this kind of war fo almost 60 years maybe we ought to take advice in how to do it from them.

....er.......60 years? And they still haven't won? Why would you want to take advice from a country that fails to win such a conflict?
Surely a more sensible approach would be to look for examples of wars against terrorists that have actually been brought to a conclusion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

.....now, as it is pretty much an accepted fact that US citizens funded both sets of terrorists in Ulster, then i called you on what appears to be hypocrisy.  What right does the US have to hold other sovereign countries to account for the actions of its citizenry if the US refuses to hold its own citizens to the same standard?
You may argue a version of 'might makes right', but that would just prove my point that a far too large proportion of US citizens fail to see that wisdom is as important as force.

Yeah, but history is made by the ones with the force, even if they don't have "wisdom".

Firm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Huh? What?

Please correct me if I'm wrong but Bush's TARP and Obama's stimulus were nearly equivalent in the amounts

No problem...
President Bush, acknowledging the risk of recession, embraced about $145 billion worth of tax relief Friday to give the economy a �shot in the arm. �

The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009, abbreviated ARRA (Pub.L. 111-5), is an economic stimulus package enacted by the 111th United States Congress in February 2009. The Act of Congress was based largely on proposals made by President Barack Obama and was intended to provide a stimulus to the U.S. economy in the wake of the economic downturn. The measures are nominally worth $787 billion.

Appreciating that you didn't challenge the effectiveness, but actually its closer to four times.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grofast

hmmmm has there been a second attack agenst Isreal like what happened at munic olympics nope. i am a believer that if the evidance is there that a certain person is responcable for an act of terroism agenst american citizens thier life and the lives of thier families are forefit assination of the planners of horriable acts of violence agest us as well as direct family should be added to the list of responces. the dead have no rights to violate

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


The distinction should be clear; conspiracy theories aside for a minute, unlike the first experience on 9/11, "We didn't know this could happen here!" will not be an acceptable excuse.

No kidding?

Will that be anything like the World Trade Center getting bombed a few years before Bush took office?

quote:

Three times the amount of the Bush bail out, the Obama bail out isn't producing............

Huh?  What?

Please correct me if I'm wrong but Bush's TARP and Obama's stimulus were nearly equivalent in the amounts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Panda isn't a Jacksonian.

I think there would be some domestic repercussions, but I think you've got the final result exactly correct.

From The Jacksonian Tradition
by Walter Russell Mead

Once wars begin, a significant element of American public opinion supports waging them at the highest possible level of intensity. The devastating tactics of the wars against the Indians, General Sherman’s campaign of 1864-65, and the unprecedented aerial bombardments of World War II were all broadly popular in the United States. During both the Korean and Vietnam Wars, presidents came under intense pressure, not only from military leaders but also from public opinion, to hit the enemy with all available force in all available places. Throughout the Cold War the path of least resistance in American politics was generally the more hawkish stance. Politicians who advocated negotiated compromises with the Soviet enemy were labeled appeasers and paid a heavy political price. The Korean and Vietnam Wars lost public support in part because of political decisions not to risk the consequences of all-out war, not necessarily stopping short of the use of nuclear weapons. The most costly decision George Bush took in the Gulf War was not to send ground forces into Iraq, but to stop short of the occupation of Baghdad and the capture and trial of Saddam Hussein.


Firm

And this has been borne out by our stunning success in the second go-around?

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

.....now, as it is pretty much an accepted fact that US citizens funded both sets of terrorists in Ulster, then i called you on what appears to be hypocrisy.  What right does the US have to hold other sovereign countries to account for the actions of its citizenry if the US refuses to hold its own citizens to the same standard?
You may argue a version of 'might makes right', but that would just prove my point that a far too large proportion of US citizens fail to see that wisdom is as important as force.

Yeah, but history is made by the ones with the force, even if they don't have "wisdom".

Firm

Not quite true there Firm, but nice try. There's such a thing known as diplomacy. and whichever way you look at it history shows that nobody does it quite like the Brits.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Tarp was 700 Billion... i fail to see how the numbers dont add up.

If Bush wasnt happy about this TARP plan, then why did he sign it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

.....now, as it is pretty much an accepted fact that US citizens funded both sets of terrorists in Ulster, then i called you on what appears to be hypocrisy.  What right does the US have to hold other sovereign countries to account for the actions of its citizenry if the US refuses to hold its own citizens to the same standard?
You may argue a version of 'might makes right', but that would just prove my point that a far too large proportion of US citizens fail to see that wisdom is as important as force.

Yeah, but history is made by the ones with the force, even if they don't have "wisdom".

Firm

Not quite true there Firm, but nice try. There's such a thing known as diplomacy. and whichever way you look at it history shows that nobody does it quite like the Brits.

Not sure what you mean exactly, Stella.

Diplomacy only works when a nation is willing and able to back up their position with force.

Seems, from my reading of history, that the Brits were rarely shy about using force.

Firm

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Talleyrand and France spring to mind almost immediately, as does King Hussein in Jordan, and Anwar Sadat in Egypt.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Tarp was 700 Billion... i fail to see how the numbers dont add up.

If Bush wasnt happy about this TARP plan, then why did he sign it?

Bush "stimulus": $145 billion

Obama "stimulus" $787 billion

Neither I nor Merc have said we approved of even the Bush "stimulus". But throwing good money after bad is never a good idea.

Firm

quote:

The amended version of H.R. 1424 was sent to the House for consideration, and on October 3, the House voted 263-171 to enact the bill into law.[6][11][12] President Bush signed the bill into law within hours of its congressional enactment, creating a $700 billion Troubled Assets Relief Program to purchase failing bank assets.[13]