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RE: 9/11...What if it happens again - 9/18/2009 11:37:24 AM

DarkSteven

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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

A terrorist attack right now in this Country would be a nightmare for the Obama administration. If he appears weak on national defence and we get hit again, his administration is done.

That was my first thought as well. But then I realized that if Obama were seen as taking decisive action against the instigators (and believe me that this scenario is now well planned for), any critics could easily be called out as troublemakers in the time of national crisis. I think it would actually strengthen Obama.

If 9/11 had not happened, what would Bush be remembered for, his tax cuts? 9/11 and Katrina are the events that defined Bush's presidency. Right now, the financial meltdown and the health care bill are defining Obama - shame that his actions against the Somalian pirates have been forgotten already.

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RE: 9/11...What if it happens again - 9/18/2009 12:20:37 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Yeah, but history is made by the ones with the force, even if they don't have "wisdom".

Firm

Not quite true there Firm, but nice try. There's such a thing known as diplomacy. and whichever way you look at it history shows that nobody does it quite like the Brits.

Not sure what you mean exactly, Stella.

Diplomacy only works when a nation is willing and able to back up their position with force.

Seems, from my reading of history, that the Brits were rarely shy about using force.

Firm

What a farce the notion that negotiations between hostile nations with opposing wants and needs can solve problems equitably.. That never has worked in the history of mankind and never will unless one nation has an overwhelming military advantage with the will to back it up.

Negotiations or just one nation telling another they are too weak to take what they want or are too weak to stop the other from taking what they need.

We would be much better off to lay out demands then back them up. We would only need to do it once…we could not get clearer than that. There would be a whole lot less bloodshed in the end.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 9/18/2009 12:25:31 PM >

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Post #: 82

RE: 9/11...What if it happens again - 9/18/2009 1:48:38 PM

stella41b

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Yeah, but history is made by the ones with the force, even if they don't have "wisdom".

Firm

Not quite true there Firm, but nice try. There's such a thing known as diplomacy. and whichever way you look at it history shows that nobody does it quite like the Brits.

Not sure what you mean exactly, Stella.

Diplomacy only works when a nation is willing and able to back up their position with force.

Seems, from my reading of history, that the Brits were rarely shy about using force.

Firm

What a farce the notion that negotiations between hostile nations with opposing wants and needs can solve problems equitably.. That never has worked in the history of mankind and never will unless one nation has an overwhelming military advantage with the will to back it up.

Negotiations or just one nation telling another they are too weak to take what they want or are too weak to stop the other from taking what they need.

We would be much better off to lay out demands then back them up. We would only need to do it once…we could not get clearer than that. There would be a whole lot less bloodshed in the end.

Butch

So what were Truman, Churchill and Stalin doing after the Second World War?

Or does farce here refer to Obama's recent handling of Libya?

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Post #: 83

RE: 9/11...What if it happens again - 9/18/2009 2:18:15 PM

Slavehandsome

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If it happens again, we should ask for a refund of all the money, liberties and power thrown into the sinkhole. That, and perhaps we should revisit our foreign policy and manner in which we swing our dick in everybody's face.

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Post #: 84

RE: 9/11...What if it happens again - 9/18/2009 5:17:13 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
As for Sadat, I'll assume you mean how he made peace with Israel? Yeah, he did that. He also proved that he was willing and able to use force on them. Remember the 73 war?

Firm

`73 has nothing to do with the fact he later negotiated with Israel, at great cost to himself, as we know.

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Post #: 85

RE: 9/11...What if it happens again - 9/18/2009 5:24:20 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

What a farce the notion that negotiations between hostile nations with opposing wants and needs can solve problems equitably.. That never has worked in the history of mankind and never will unless one nation has an overwhelming military advantage with the will to back it up.

Negotiations or just one nation telling another they are too weak to take what they want or are too weak to stop the other from taking what they need.

We would be much better off to lay out demands then back them up. We would only need to do it once…we could not get clearer than that. There would be a whole lot less bloodshed in the end.

Butch

History proves you wrong Butch. Have you forgotten the first Iraq war, it hardly stopped the second one did it, even though Saddam new he could never defeat the West.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 86

RE: 9/11...What if it happens again - 9/18/2009 5:29:52 PM

DomImus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
That was my first thought as well. But then I realized that if Obama were seen as taking decisive action against the instigators (and believe me that this scenario is now well planned for), any critics could easily be called out as troublemakers in the time of national crisis. I think it would actually strengthen Obama.

Jimmy Carter and Bill Cosby are at the ready.

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Post #: 87

RE: 9/11...What if it happens again - 9/18/2009 6:12:24 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

What a farce the notion that negotiations between hostile nations with opposing wants and needs can solve problems equitably.. That never has worked in the history of mankind and never will unless one nation has an overwhelming military advantage with the will to back it up.

Negotiations or just one nation telling another they are too weak to take what they want or are too weak to stop the other from taking what they need.

We would be much better off to lay out demands then back them up. We would only need to do it once…we could not get clearer than that. There would be a whole lot less bloodshed in the end.

Butch

History proves you wrong Butch. Have you forgotten the first Iraq war, it hardly stopped the second one did it, even though Saddam new he could never defeat the West.

I'd like to know how it proved me wrong...in fact it is my very point. We negotiated with other nations at the behest of the UN… The final say about the war was with the resolutions. The UN was weak so we did not have the proper outcome… In fact the UN has been the CAUSE of more suffering then any other entity on earth because it is weak and ineffectual.

Our country had not been attacked and we did not have the will as a country to pursue the war to its ending… Another attack, the purpose of this thread, will push us to the serious business of war… We will dictate terms and destroy those that will not submit...simple as that. That is how we should negotiate and I believe that is how we will.

Butch

Ps Stella

They did not negotiate at the end of WWII… they divided the spoils of war according to military might.. and our weakness and the UK’s started the cold war.

Please give me an example where negotiation has resulted in an equitable settlement between nations…

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 9/18/2009 6:15:48 PM >

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Post #: 88

RE: 9/11...What if it happens again - 9/18/2009 7:22:08 PM

Leiren

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Joined: 8/16/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

How did knowing that he had a big ugly cowboy hat, thought two stepping was the cultural equivalent of ballet and set aside time every day to remember the Alamo help the situation?

(I apologize to all the Texans on this board...I couldn't resist.)

That is your problem. You never can resist provoking partisan politics in one way or another. You deny it over and over, and yet you continue to do it.

As far as the original question posed, I'll say that if another 9/11 occurs, (and it likely will) that the U.S. brought it on themselves by continually aligning themselves with Middle Eastern countries who put our own national security in jeopardy.

It won't play out any better for Obama than it did for Bush. Eventually, someone is going to start a war that won't stop in either Iraq or Afghanistan. Eventually, if U.S. politicians keep responding in ways that engender more hatred for the U.S., the ball won't stop rolling until WWIII starts and then I think most of you can guess the ultimate outcome.

It won't be pretty and no one will be left to report on it.

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Post #: 89

RE: 9/11...What if it happens again - 9/18/2009 7:46:42 PM

stella41b

Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Our country had not been attacked and we did not have the will as a country to pursue the war to its ending… Another attack, the purpose of this thread, will push us to the serious business of war… We will dictate terms and destroy those that will not submit...simple as that. That is how we should negotiate and I believe that is how we will.

Which pretty much explains why you're still in Iraq and Afghanistan, no weapons of mass destruction uncovered, nor the terrible crimes Saddam Hussein was supposedly guilty of, nor the destruction of the Taliban nor the capture of Osama Bin Laden nor the destruction of Al Qaeda..

Yes you have destroyed Iraq (Afghanistan was still pretty much destroyed after the Soviets when you started bombing there), without really solving any of the problems.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

They did not negotiate at the end of WWII… they divided the spoils of war according to military might.. and our weakness and the UK’s started the cold war.

So that means you preferred the solutions in Nagasaki and Hiroshima?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Please give me an example where negotiation has resulted in an equitable settlement between nations…

In keeping with the topic on the thread the UK Irish talks at Stormont and the Good Friday Agreement which brought about the IRA ceasefire.

Notice how that was brought about by Tony Blair.

Take a look at what's happening with Libya and how much Gaddafi has changed his stance over the years.

Take a look at what Tony Blair is doing and then take a look at what Obama is doing.

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Post #: 90

RE: 9/11...What if it happens again - 9/18/2009 7:58:06 PM

Irishknight

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UMMMM.... I'll give you one Stella. Libya's position actually changed when US fighters sent a missile into his tent when he provoked Reagan. That was the turning point for him, not any negotiations.

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Post #: 91

RE: 9/11...What if it happens again - 9/18/2009 8:15:15 PM

kdsub

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Give me a break stella...don't change the subject...we are talking about the usefulness of negotiating and the reaction of America to another mass killing.

Your triad just reinforces my points…If we had responded as I propose the first time and as I believe will be our next response to another mass killing, the war would be over…Even if provocateurs in the Middle East are destroyed.

Maybe then you can ride the subway without the fear of people with backpack bombs.

The world has been negotiating with the radicals of the Middle East for 50 years or more and sees what it has got us.

As I’ve said there is no such thing as negotiation… there is just the balancing of power and will.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to stella41b)

Post #: 92

RE: 9/11...What if it happens again - 9/18/2009 8:15:24 PM

stella41b

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

UMMMM.... I'll give you one Stella. Libya's position actually changed when US fighters sent a missile into his tent when he provoked Reagan. That was the turning point for him, not any negotiations.

Well you must have sent some pretty crappy bombers over then because they missed the tent and hit the hospitals and schools in Tripoli instead.

There is no tent, but you can overlook that statement and continue to believe your version.

My version differs somewhat, in that the changes came later, closer to the issue over Lockerbie and motivated not by fear of US bombs but more by international trade opportunities such as new trade with the European Union and the opportunities of exporting Libyan oil.

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Post #: 93

RE: 9/11...What if it happens again - 9/18/2009 8:36:05 PM

Irishknight

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Libya got real quiet sfter the bombing. Yes, some civilian targets were hit. Several military targets were also hit. That is the very nature of bombs. The fact is that Gaddafi was sent running for his life for picking the wrong fight. He shut his mouth after that. If you don't think that paved the way for negotiations, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Punching a bully in the nose and knocking him on his ass is still sometimes the only way to make him listen.

I agree with you 100% on the IRA. The difference being that they were ready for peace. You can only negotiate peace with someone who is ready to accept it.

Hitler paved his road through Europe with peace treaties and negotiations. Make peace then attack. Make peace then attack. Both sides have to actually want peace before it works.

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Post #: 94

RE: 9/11...What if it happens again - 9/18/2009 8:49:10 PM

kdsub

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Stella if it were just me and you we could negotiate anything…But Nations are not individuals… The leaders must act in ways that keep them in power or benefit their nation. When adversarial countries negotiate their leaders must represent the power or the people of the country. What is right or wrong has nothing to do with it. To concede or compromise would be political suicide unless there is a real threat of immediate military action.

What you call negotiating is just political posturing trying to swing support and gain power…as with Iran and N. Korea…and the US and don’t forget the UK.

Nothing is ever settled outside of war…or government change…or loss of will. In which case one or the other wins… but it will not be a fair equitable settlement.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to stella41b)

Post #: 95

RE: 9/11...What if it happens again - 9/18/2009 8:56:56 PM

SpinnerofTales

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quote:

That is your problem. You never can resist provoking partisan politics in one way or another. You deny it over and over, and yet you continue to do it. ORIGINAL: Leiren
ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Making a joke about Texans is a partisan political matter? Making a joke about Texans is a purely bi-partisan matter. I would ask for an explanation why a joke about Texans having cowboy hats, revering the alamo and not being the most culturally eleite people in the country is a partisan matter, but I am still waiting for an response to my question about the incredibly racist and bigoted comments you made in another thread, so my expectations are low.

< Message edited by SpinnerofTales -- 9/18/2009 8:59:28 PM >

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Post #: 96

RE: 9/11...What if it happens again - 9/18/2009 9:13:20 PM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
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Who actually declared a war on whom again? The problem with treating terrorists as if they were nations is that their organisations shift, mutate and adapt much faster than nation states. Terrorists are crazy fuckers - and those nations that fund them should be penalised (*follow my gaze*, koff koff).

There won't be another 9/11 - there might be another attack (and in my heart, I pray there won't be), but that would only because of the folly of individuals armed to their teeth with hatred (there is no shortage of such people anywhere on the planet).

9/11 doesn't diminish the horror of "non-terroristic" attacks that apparently belong to the world of war... and so, alas, do most wars go: there won't be another Auschwitz. There won't be another Blitz. There won't be another Hiroshima. There won't be another Kosovo. There won't be another Rwanda.

None of these events prevent other terrible events from happening. Kant was wrong: humanity does not learn from history.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 9/18/2009 9:22:22 PM >

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Post #: 97

RE: 9/11...What if it happens again - 9/18/2009 9:38:46 PM

ElectraGlide

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The same thing will happen, we will support The President in a war because we want quick revenge, even if we have to bomb Canada or Mexico. If we don't win in a week, we will turn against The President. Then the next President will come along bad mouthing the current war, just like our current Prseident, then when he or she is elected, they will continue the so called really bad war that people thought they were going to end.

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Post #: 98

RE: 9/11...What if it happens again - 9/18/2009 9:40:52 PM

kittinSol

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It's so depressing, isn't it? No wonder my generation decided to slack this whole shit

.

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Post #: 99

RE: 9/11...What if it happens again - 9/18/2009 10:45:30 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Who actually declared a war on whom again? The problem with treating terrorists as if they were nations is that their organisations shift, mutate and adapt much faster than nation states. Terrorists are crazy fuckers - and those nations that fund them should be penalised (*follow my gaze*, koff koff).

There won't be another 9/11 - there might be another attack (and in my heart, I pray there won't be), but that would only because of the folly of individuals armed to their teeth with hatred (there is no shortage of such people anywhere on the planet).

9/11 doesn't diminish the horror of "non-terroristic" attacks that apparently belong to the world of war... and so, alas, do most wars go: there won't be another Auschwitz. There won't be another Blitz. There won't be another Hiroshima. There won't be another Kosovo. There won't be another Rwanda.

None of these events prevent other terrible events from happening. Kant was wrong: humanity does not learn from history.

Kitten what you say is true...except there can always be a bigger shock... like New York City uninhabitable for a few thousand years with a dirty bomb.

Terrorists have no factories to build weapons… they have few resources for training areas on their own…they have little money without industry…SO

We know who are supplying, training, and funding these terrorists and those are the countries that would be at risk in an all out war on terror.

It would be hard for terrorists to scare New York city with a few ak-47’s…so we don’t need to catch and kill all the terrorists just take away their weapons and ability to recruit, train, and arm.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 100

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