RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right

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Politesub53 -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/19/2009 3:29:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY If only ... let's say ... 30% of "whites" are victims of racism, but 100% of blacks are ... do the math. It's close to the same number of people, depending on how you want to define the races and racism. Why give any cover to any racism at all? Firm Do the maths indeed Firm, if 30% of Whites are victims of racism, thats just under a third. If 100% of Blacks are victims of racism, that would be..........all of them. How the hell you make that the same is beyond me.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/19/2009 3:34:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire Okay, so... Sanity and Firm are both against racisim against whites.... but they are in favor of the more traditional types of racisim against minorities. Right. Got it. Not surprised, but I do indeed "get it." No, we are against racism of any kind. We believe, as Martin Luther King said, that people should be judged on the quality of their character, not on the color of their skin. Some wish to rail against white on black racism. Bravo. Some wish to excuse black on white racism because white on black racism is "more prevalent" or "has been around longer" or is somehow or the other "more real". It's still racism. The only difference is you excuse it for one group, and not the other. Even taking Spinner at his word (and I do), what he is saying - in effect - is that whites have little or no room to complain, and certainly we should spend more time addressing white racism against all other races before we worry about the converse. I thought an injustice against one, was an injustice against all? When we start minimizing anyone's injustice simply because they aren't in the "right group", that, in itself is racism. Why should I excuse or allow my 1 year old white male grandson to be discriminated against? What's he done? Has he done something more or less than the 1 year old black male of my next door neighbor? Of the 1 year old Muslim Arab across the street? No. Firm

FirmhandKY -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/19/2009 3:35:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY If only ... let's say ... 30% of "whites" are victims of racism, but 100% of blacks are ... do the math. It's close to the same number of people, depending on how you want to define the races and racism. Why give any cover to any racism at all? Firm Do the maths indeed Firm, if 30% of Whites are victims of racism, thats just under a third. If 100% of Blacks are victims of racism, that would be..........all of them. How the hell you make that the same is beyond me. I'm an individualist. Try looking at the absolute numbers. Otherwise, you rank the human worth and dignity of one group over another group. That's a form of racism to me. Firm

Politesub53 -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/19/2009 3:39:27 PM)
That wont wash Firm. You cant claim that one in three being victimised is ever equal to one out of one, no matter how you spin it. Sure the totals may be the same but no statistician will back your claim, individualist or otherwise.

SpinnerofTales -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/19/2009 4:00:06 PM)
quote: Even taking Spinner at his word (and I do), what he is saying - in effect - is that whites have little or no room to complain, and certainly we should spend more time addressing white racism against all other races before we worry about the converse. I thought an injustice against one, was an injustice against all? When we start minimizing anyone's injustice simply because they aren't in the "right group", that, in itself is racism ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY First, I would like you to explain how a study that shows that a name that is meant to convey the image of a white person is 50% more likely to produce a positive result than one meant to convey the image of a black person not racism but "culture". Second, you and others continue, and I suggest will continue, to miss the glaring point that until there was some hint of racial inequity pointed at them, had nothing at all to say about the "injustice to one is injustice to all" principal. Did I miss all outrage over the systemic racism that exists in this country against people of color from the conservative right? Did I some how skip past them in the posting on this very board? If I have, I would love for someone to point them out to me. What I see now is this incredible sense of outrage at the slightest hint that there may be a racially based inequality aimed at white males coupled with a complete denial that far more egregious racism towards people of color are business as usual in this country. What I have seen is a total lack of the simple understanding of "I see how angry I am when racism is pointed my way I can better understand the anger of people who have had far more damage done to them because of racism". What I haven't seen is any sign of a sense of proportion in solving a problem. I have seen no sign of "Let's take action to end all racism against everyone.". That has been replaced with "Let's all get together to take care of MY stubbed to and THEN maybe we can discuss your broken leg." Turn it anyway you like. This whole "Look at how we're the victim of racial oppression" attitude is just another sign of how the conservative right is milking the "we're such poor, innocent victims" cow on all four tits.

Sanity -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/19/2009 4:05:40 PM)
He's just a man, nothing more, so of course he can be a racist. And he has established that he is a racist without any of my help at all. I also know in my heart that you would direct your manufactured "dismay" towards any conservative acting half the part of a racist that Barack Obama does. quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Obama racist ?....... Shakes head in dismay. Your claim borders on hysteria/paranoia, sadly it doesnt suprise me that you made it.

SpinnerofTales -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/19/2009 4:09:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales Even taking Spinner at his word (and I do), what he is saying - in effect - is that whites have little or no room to complain, and certainly we should spend more time addressing white racism against all other races before we worry about the converse. I thought an injustice against one, was an injustice against all? When we start minimizing anyone's injustice simply because they aren't in the "right group", that, in itself is racism ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY First, I would like you to explain how a study that shows that a name that is meant to convey the image of a white person is 50% more likely to produce a positive result than one meant to convey the image of a black person not racism but "culture". Second, your "30%, 100%" analogy is made of straw. A far better and more accurate analogy is "If 30% of white people are referred to as racists when it isn't true or have to endure the indignity of having an unfairly harsh criticism of their racial groups during a speech and 100% of blacks will at some point in their lives be denied a job or a promotion, be given a substandard education and be subject to police harassment and/or violence because of the color of their skin, then it evens out." What these "reverse racism" posts have in common is that they are complaining about things that don't really affect the quality of their lives on a day to day basis. These are not equivalent matters just as a person not associating with blacks (or whites for that matter) because he "doesn't like that kind of people" is equivalent to a KKK lynching. (I am NOT calling anyone here a KKK member or equivalent, just using an example that illustrates my point). Lastly, you and others continue, and I suggest will continue, to miss the glaring point that until there was some hint of racial inequity pointed at them, had nothing at all to say about the "injustice to one is injustice to all" principal. Did I miss all outrage over the systemic racism that exists in this country against people of color from the conservative right? Did I some how skip past them in the posting on this very board? If I have, I would love for someone to point them out to me. What I see now is this incredible sense of outrage at the slightest hint that there may be a racially based inequality aimed at white males coupled with a complete denial that far more egregious racism towards people of color are business as usual in this country. What I have seen is a total lack of the simple understanding of "I see how angry I am when racism is pointed my way I can better understand the anger of people who have had far more damage done to them because of racism". What I haven't seen is any sign of a sense of proportion in solving a problem. I have seen no sign of "Let's take action to end all racism against everyone.". That has been replaced with "Let's all get together to take care of MY stubbed to and THEN maybe we can discuss your broken leg." Turn it anyway you like. This whole "Look at how we're the victim of racial oppression" attitude is just another sign of how the conservative right is milking the "we're such poor, innocent victims" cow on all four tits. Please address these points before bringing up the conveniently discovered principal "An injustice against one is an injustice to all".

Politesub53 -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/19/2009 4:16:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity He's just a man, nothing more, so of course he can be a racist. And he has established that he is a racist without any of my help at all. I also know in my heart that you would direct your manufactured "dismay" towards any conservative acting half the part of a racist that Barack Obama does. Manufactured dismay ? Dont flatter yourself Sanity. It saddens me that anyone of your intelligence could call Obama racist based on so little.

Sanity -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/19/2009 4:33:20 PM)
What is sad is that someone in such a position can be so blatantly racist and yet there are so many who eagerly step up to defend him, and probably just for political reasons.

Brain -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/19/2009 5:03:04 PM)
I would seriously consider nominating Mario Cuomo the former governor of the Empire state and the great state of New York, and I am quite sure President Obama would if he were interested. He may be getting too old however, and may just want to enjoy his retirement. Spitzer is brilliant and younger and if Mark Warner can be governor of South Carolina I don’t have a problem with Elliott Spitzer on the the Supreme Court. What a hypocrite and a scumbag that Mr. Warner will not resign after demanding Bill Clinton resign or be impeached. quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Obama will never nominate a white male for the supreme court, why should we go on pretending here.

MarsBonfire -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/19/2009 6:22:02 PM)
I wouldn't worry about your Grandson, Firm. As things stand, he still has an overwhealming advantage over people of other races, at least in America. He's still loaded with "white privlidge" and I'm sure he will do just fine with whatever school he applies to, whatever jobs he may apply for, and if he gets in front of a judge for some reason, I'm sure he'll get more than a fair shake. So keep telling yourself you're being discriminated against. Deep down, you know it's all bullshit. All of this posturing is just so guys like you and Sanity (and most of the right) can whine about the US actually BECOMING the land of equal opportunity. Because that's sure as hell NOT what you stand for. "We believe in no racisim at all." ...nice sentiment, but when the GOP votes consistently to make sure minorities, women and GLBT folk stay down, the lie is exposed. As I've mentioned before, try playing a great drinking game when watching republican events. Play, "spot the minority": when you see a black, hispanic or asian face in the crowd, you take a shot of beer. If one of them is in the foreground, or the camera actually bothers to get a close up, then you get a shot of whiskey. (But don't worry... you don't get very drunk when playing this game... ever.)

FirmhandKY -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/19/2009 7:47:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire I wouldn't worry about your Grandson, Firm. As things stand, he still has an overwhealming advantage over people of other races, at least in America. He's still loaded with "white privlidge" and I'm sure he will do just fine with whatever school he applies to, whatever jobs he may apply for, and if he gets in front of a judge for some reason, I'm sure he'll get more than a fair shake. So keep telling yourself you're being discriminated against. Deep down, you know it's all bullshit. All of this posturing is just so guys like you and Sanity (and most of the right) can whine about the US actually BECOMING the land of equal opportunity. Because that's sure as hell NOT what you stand for. "We believe in no racisim at all." ...nice sentiment, but when the GOP votes consistently to make sure minorities, women and GLBT folk stay down, the lie is exposed. As I've mentioned before, try playing a great drinking game when watching republican events. Play, "spot the minority": when you see a black, hispanic or asian face in the crowd, you take a shot of beer. If one of them is in the foreground, or the camera actually bothers to get a close up, then you get a shot of whiskey. (But don't worry... you don't get very drunk when playing this game... ever.) History test. List of African-American Republicans Firm

SpinnerofTales -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/19/2009 7:47:35 PM)
quote: Some wish to excuse black on white racism because white on black racism is "more prevalent" or "has been around longer" or is somehow or the other "more real". It's still racism. The only difference is you excuse it for one group, and not the other. [ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Firm, I think I have finally, in part due to considering your posts, come up with a clearer way to express my point in this matter. I agree with you that all racism is wrong. I do not feel, however, that all racism is equal. Let me use an extreme example for purposes of illustration. If I do not invite you to my diner party because you are of a certain racial or ethnic group, that is racism. If I shoot you because you are of a certain racial or ethnic group that is also racism. Both acts are absolutely wrong. This does not make them have an equal impact, nor is the importance of addressing them equal. I think that you would agree that it is a far more pressing problem to stop those who are shooting people based on race than to stop those who are not inviting people to dinner for the same reasons. So while I am in no way condoning racism from any group towards any group, I still maintain that the attempts of some to elevate their not being invited to dinner to the same level of suffering as those who are being shot, to continue the extreme example detailed above, are missing a rather crucial differentiation.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/19/2009 7:57:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales Even taking Spinner at his word (and I do), what he is saying - in effect - is that whites have little or no room to complain, and certainly we should spend more time addressing white racism against all other races before we worry about the converse. I thought an injustice against one, was an injustice against all? When we start minimizing anyone's injustice simply because they aren't in the "right group", that, in itself is racism ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Second, your "30%, 100%" analogy is made of straw. A far better and more accurate analogy is "If 30% of white people are referred to as racists when it isn't true or have to endure the indignity of having an unfairly harsh criticism of their racial groups during a speech and 100% of blacks will at some point in their lives be denied a job or a promotion, be given a substandard education and be subject to police harassment and/or violence because of the color of their skin, then it evens out." No. It never "evens out". "Evening out" racism is a dysfunctional, counterproductive and morally reprehensible concept. If you don't get this, then regardless of what good thoughts and feelings you may engender with me, or anyone else, we are at basic philosophical loggerheads. One of the biggest differences between conservatives and liberals is the concept of individualism and personal responsibility. You seem to be firmly on the side of "anti-individualism" and on the side of "group rights". I could be no more against and opposed to them then anything you could imagine. More, later, on your other points. Firm

FirmhandKY -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/19/2009 8:01:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales quote: Some wish to excuse black on white racism because white on black racism is "more prevalent" or "has been around longer" or is somehow or the other "more real". It's still racism. The only difference is you excuse it for one group, and not the other. [ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Firm, I think I have finally, in part due to considering your posts, come up with a clearer way to express my point in this matter. I agree with you that all racism is wrong. I do not feel, however, that all racism is equal. Let me use an extreme example for purposes of illustration. If I do not invite you to my diner party because you are of a certain racial or ethnic group, that is racism. If I shoot you because you are of a certain racial or ethnic group that is also racism. Both acts are absolutely wrong. This does not make them have an equal impact, nor is the importance of addressing them equal. I think that you would agree that it is a far more pressing problem to stop those who are shooting people based on race than to stop those who are not inviting people to dinner for the same reasons. So while I am in no way condoning racism from any group towards any group, I still maintain that the attempts of some to elevate their not being invited to dinner to the same level of suffering as those who are being shot, to continue the extreme example detailed above, are missing a rather crucial differentiation. We are part way there, then. I do not consider "not inviting someone to dinner" racism. I do consider not giving someone a job that they are otherwise best qualified for racism. I do consider shooting or hanging or lynching someone purely based on their race "racism". Firm

SpinnerofTales -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/19/2009 8:09:11 PM)
quote: It never "evens out". ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY As I have stated in a previous post, I expressed that thought badly. No, racism never evens out and the oppression of one never makes up for the oppression of another. There is, though, a hierarchy of importance in all manner. Catching murderers is a more important matter than catching double parkers. Getting an innocent man off death row is more important than making sure an innocent man is not fined for using his cell phone while driving. That has nothing to do with individual rights versus group rights. It has to do with simple common sense.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/19/2009 8:11:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 That wont wash Firm. You cant claim that one in three being victimised is ever equal to one out of one, no matter how you spin it. Sure the totals may be the same but no statistician will back your claim, individualist or otherwise. According to wikipedia: White alone 74% 221.3 million Black or African American alone 13.4% 40.9 million 30% of 221.3 million = 66.39 million 100% of 40.9 million = 40.9 million So, according to you, it is better to discriminate against 66 million, than 41 million? How about discriminating against none? Firm

FirmhandKY -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/19/2009 8:24:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales quote: It never "evens out". ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY As I have stated in a previous post, I expressed that thought badly. No, racism never evens out and the oppression of one never makes up for the oppression of another. There is, though, a hierarchy of importance in all manner. Catching murderers is a more important matter than catching double parkers. Getting an innocent man off death row is more important than making sure an innocent man is not fined for using his cell phone while driving. That has nothing to do with individual rights versus group rights. It has to do with simple common sense. Spinner, Ok, I accept that you expressed it badly. I do not wish to simply alienate you. But, even so, you are assuming that somehow "racism" against white's is somehow less reprehensible than "racism" against blacks. What are your sources? The fact that - in the past - blacks were regularly lynched, or kept as slaves? How about the present? If we live our lives in the past, then we can never overcome any injustice. Several issues: Just because "black against white" racism figures aren't tracked and kept (and generally they are not), how can you even start to justify your position? Most "whites" fully realize that it's a losing proposition to even attempt to complain or raise any kind of flag when they believe that they are victims of "counter-racism", therefore any figures that may have been collected are suspect. What is the system(s) in place to track and correct "racism" that is perpetrated against non-black members and citizens of these United States? What is the difference between "racism" and simply personal dislike of an individual and his (her) values and behavior, especially when they arise out of the culture membership of an individual? More, later. This is just the start, but I'll admit that I've "had a few" tonight, and may not be fully able to express myself clearly. Firm

cuckoldmepls -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/19/2009 8:40:32 PM)
Oh get real. More people are discriminated against for being fat, stupid, and ugly than for the color of their skin. Reverse discrimination is more dominant in America now, since the majority are white. In fact, it's so bad now that English speaking Americans are beginning to be persecuted by lawyers and the courts. We also now have a racist on the Supreme Court as evidence by her ruling in the New Haven Fire Fire Department case that was overturned by the Supreme Court. By the way, the majority of her cases that were appealed to the Supreme Court were overturned. The truth is, that the only way to eliminate racism is to eliminate affirmative action and finally have everyone promoted on their intelligence, problem solving skills, and people skills. Promoting people based on color of their skin or ethnic heritage is about as racist as it gets.

DomKen -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/19/2009 8:45:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 That wont wash Firm. You cant claim that one in three being victimised is ever equal to one out of one, no matter how you spin it. Sure the totals may be the same but no statistician will back your claim, individualist or otherwise. According to wikipedia: White alone 74% 221.3 million Black or African American alone 13.4% 40.9 million 30% of 221.3 million = 66.39 million 100% of 40.9 million = 40.9 million So, according to you, it is better to discriminate against 66 million, than 41 million? How about discriminating against none? Firm Based on false assumption. The number of whites affected, really affected not outraged that AA exists etc., is no where near 30%. Charitably I'll concede 0.1%. I think it's likely closer to 1 in 1 million than 1 in 1000 though.

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