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RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/23/2009 1:57:52 PM

heartfeltsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: looking4princess

quote:

We are absolutely equal before God. In the Bible, it states that slave owners should treat their slaves with kindness and never forget that they are all equal in the eyes of the Lord. To be more practical, the Bible states many times that, even in traditional relationships, people will have different, seemingly unequal roles...this does not mean that they lose their equality in the eyes of God, however.

I hope that answers your question.

Ah, so are you saying the bible justifies slavery, even consensual slavery in the contemporary world? I mean, that's okay with me ... the consensual part...if that is what you are saying.

There are a couple of Old Testament references to consensual slavery. Where a person sells themselves into servitude for a period of 7 years and when they would be freed by Jewish law, ask to be made a permanent slave by having their ear pierced to signify permanent ownership to their Master.

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Post #: 41

RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/23/2009 2:02:05 PM

porcelaine

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there was a lot talked about in the bible and very few know what the heck was written. without some proficiency in koine greek, hebrew, and aramaic you are basing your beliefs on translations instead. paul's writings on how slaves should be treated is in response to the Jewish laws in the old testament. while the israelites were enslaved, they also had slaves as well and were given specific rules during the exodus on how the slaves should be treated. however, the concept of voluntary servitude is not promoted in Jewish text.

each slave served for a specific period of time and was then released. there are some who elected to remain with their owner. in these cases a specific ritual was undertaken to symbolize those relationships. the overall consensus was one that supported freedom when the opportunity arose. as for paul's comments, most were given to the gentiles, a group of people that would have had no knowledge of Jewish customs and laws, and to provide a link between the old and new for Jews to substantiate that Yeshua was the christ. a much clearer picture of the woman's role in scripture can be gained through apochryphal texts.

porcelaine

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RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/23/2009 2:11:36 PM

mnottertail

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well, p----------seems that period was variable (not just the 7 year thing) think Jacob and Rachel and Sara or the goats with stripes, easily extensible on some small pretext, and could be for life, even after the exodus and the reasoning for the law, because the jews were non-consentual slaves without hope of release (far as they knew) under hard masters. So, additional laws popped up (the jubilee....which was a failure) where everything reverted to its original owner after a 50 year cycle, which caused problems for the guy who got his pleasure slave at 49 years 364 days in the jubilee cycle. And no self-respecting jew I ever met, dirt poor or not, naked poor old country slave its calling, could survive life without what it called 'staff' (lol dhf (and old friend of mine who I talked about several times on this forum))

Ron

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 9/23/2009 2:14:00 PM >

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RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/23/2009 2:14:22 PM

VampiresLair

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quote:

ORIGINAL: looking4princess

quote:

We are absolutely equal before God. In the Bible, it states that slave owners should treat their slaves with kindness and never forget that they are all equal in the eyes of the Lord. To be more practical, the Bible states many times that, even in traditional relationships, people will have different, seemingly unequal roles...this does not mean that they lose their equality in the eyes of God, however.

I hope that answers your question.

Ah, so are you saying the bible justifies slavery, even consensual slavery in the contemporary world? I mean, that's okay with me ... the consensual part...if that is what you are saying.

The Bible was written in a world where slavery was a fact of life. As such, it handled how one should be a righteous and moral slave holder. Do I think the Bible justifies actual slavery in today's world? No. Slavery is no longer a deep seated institution in our society, though it does regretfully occur. I also think that the Bible can be interpreted as beginning the road to the end of slavery(though many have used it as justification), because it urges slaves to be treated as brothers and sisters in Christ moreso than thoughtless, sub-human property. It may seem like much of a difference to us today, but I believe that sort of thought helped lead to the eventual end of widespread slavery.

Does the Bible support my relationship with my Owner? Yes. We are a two loving souls about to be made one by marriage. We will love each other deeply and faithfully, with a deep respect for one another and a love for God.

DV's Fox

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RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/23/2009 2:17:32 PM

porcelaine

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of course they couldn't because the land needed to be tended to. but even then the concept of slavery as was customarily practiced and what we're aware of during the modern day are world's apart.

you are right about needing staff. just saying. *smirks*

porcelaine

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RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/23/2009 2:26:37 PM

mnottertail

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well, ok, so we sort of agree, it is necessary in the grind, the treadmill, the walking the stairs, you know, the upstairs, downstairs the ------------- oh, where did that come from, when did that happen?

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RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/23/2009 2:30:53 PM

porcelaine

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i'm chattel. i just sit and watch. you have all the answers remember? i'll focus on sitting pretty instead. i'm a natural. you wouldn't want to hand me the reins. *laughs*

porcelaine

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RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/23/2009 2:58:42 PM

AlexandraLynch

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Well, I'm pagan. So it's all sacred, and it's not a problem, as long as everyone is expressing their inner truth with respect for the inner truth of their partner. (Part of this is consent, needless to say.)

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RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/23/2009 3:17:09 PM

SomethingCatchy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lessthancharmed

As a Christian I don't really find there to be any religious conflict with marital, Bible-based, M/f relationships. In fact, the Bible is very clear that women should be obedient to their husbands in the same way the church should be obedient to Christ, and points out how Sarah obeyed Abraham and called him "Lord." There are no specific prohibitions placed on sex acts between a man and his wife in the Bible itself, however many conservative churchy types will forbid oral sex with rationales like "I wasn't born standing on my head," and I'm sure they'd have plenty to say against many BDSM activities. For those trying to be a part of a specific church, it could be awkward if they were open about the nature of their relationship, but for those who simply believe in the Bible without trying to conform to the views of any particular denomination, I think it can be a valid lifestyle for both Jews and Christians. It would be easy to cross the line into the forbidden, though, if you were hanging around a lifestyle-oriented crowd.

The bible also says to beat your children in order to teach them a lesson, even though 'constructive child rearing' has shown that it isn't necessary to ever hit your child.

I also remember the bible saying somewhere that men need to be subservient to their wives like he is to Christ. So, to me, what the bible is really saying is 'Treat one another with respect and give equally'

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RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/23/2009 3:22:00 PM

Lockit

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The bible does not say to beat your children. It says not to spare the rod. A spanking is not the same as a beating. The term of the day may have been rod... but it isn't exactly how we might perceive it. The bible also says for parents not to anger their children. Beating them would anger them! Treating them fairly would be the way to go... along with the love that the rest of scripture talks about as well as other things.

There are some people who do not learn unless they have been spanked. I had one that would not learn any other way... amoungst lots that didn't need spanking. It depends on the kid. The bible isn't encouraging spanking alone or beating. Basically is stating that a parent should not be afraid to correct in a physical manner if needed. By not doing so, some will not learn.

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RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/23/2009 3:27:36 PM

GoDolphins

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This thread caught my attention because to some extent I have dealt with this issue. I am a Christian but also interested in some BDSM activities. Much of my interest comes from psychological aspects of it and I could probably enjoy it without a single bit of sexual activity involved. However, I won't lie, as I've gotten older I have also become interested in some of the sexual aspects involved as well. My interests still lie more in psychological aspects of a few key areas, notably bondage and light d/s aspects though. I realize this makes me very much different than most people on here. I have turned a few people away because they wanted to do things I wasn't ready to do. For the most part I don't have any conflicts between this and Christianity, as I don't see them as mutually exclusive (a few activities yes, but I won't get into that), except for the fact that I'm not married. But I haven't yet done anything explicitly sexual so nothing I've done so far makes me feel too guilty, apart from some fantasies I've had. I'll address my feelings on fantasies a bit later.

There are a few explanations I could think of. My guess is that she's probably a "non-practicing" Christian. In other words, she believes in God, believes in Jesus, but it's not really a real part of her life. In other words, she's a Christian by name only (trying not to sound judgmental here as we all struggle with this at one time or another, and I myself have and unfortunately still do to some extent, so I definitely can't condemn her for it, but it's the truth). I would say a lot of Christians fit this level. Another explanation I can think of is that she's a new Christian. There are a number of things I could think of.

Or she could be lying. I've come across enough people who despise Christians and enough trolls and fakes on here where I wouldn't put it past someone to do that specifically to try to make Christians look bad and/or like hypocrites. I'd take her at her word until I have reason to doubt her, but I wouldn't completely rule it out either. The wording sounds an awful lot like some of the fakes I've come across on here.

Most people, Christian or otherwise, have fantasies and sometimes they aren't exactly healthy or moral. Except for the very small percentage of people who truly do not have sexual feelings I would imagine we all have had them before and probably still do. It doesn't just disappear just because you become a Christian. But, having a fantasy and actually doing it are two entirely different things.

(in reply to looking4princess)

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RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/23/2009 3:28:01 PM

mnottertail

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thy rod AND thy staff;
they comfort me.......

the rod is a 'switch' (in the tree sense, rather than in the fuckandsuck sense) to goad sheep and tan their fannies (think birchrod, but they dont have birch native) on your ass, and the staff is the good ol' sheep crook.

So don't cane them, stripe their ass.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 9/23/2009 3:29:11 PM >

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Post #: 52

RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/23/2009 3:29:24 PM

GoddessImaginos

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlexandraLynch

Well, I'm pagan. So it's all sacred, and it's not a problem, as long as everyone is expressing their inner truth with respect for the inner truth of their partner. (Part of this is consent, needless to say.)

I have been actively Pagan all My adult life, right on. *Agrees With This Post and, currently dispreferring rampant arguements that ruin My equilibrium and good cheer, stays carefully to the sidelines of the rest*
"All acts of Love and Pleasure are My rituals.." ~ The Charge of the Goddess

< Message edited by GoddessImaginos -- 9/23/2009 3:32:12 PM >

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RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/23/2009 3:40:37 PM

kamatzlakkotah

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Is it ok for Femdoms to rule over men? Because the Bible says that woman should not rule over man. I'm a submissive male myself, and i've been struggling with this issue for a long time.

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Post #: 54

RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/23/2009 3:42:31 PM

porcelaine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoDolphins

There are a few explanations I could think of. My guess is that she's probably a "non-practicing" Christian. In other words, she believes in God, believes in Jesus, but it's not really a real part of her life. In other words, she's a Christian by name only (trying not to sound judgmental here as we all struggle with this at one time or another, and I myself have and unfortunately still do to some extent, so I definitely can't condemn her for it, but it's the truth). I would say a lot of Christians fit this level. Another explanation I can think of is that she's a new Christian. There are a number of things I could think of.

so she's a lapsed christian because she promotes financial dominance and openly states she will take their money, which they must be willing to give but that's another argument. but you see no contradiction with your presence on this site, something i'm willing to bet you couldn't go back to your local church group and discuss. single or not. so if she's lapsed, where does that leave you and others like you? cause i'm just trying to understand how one can be a spade and the other isn't.

porcelaine

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RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/23/2009 3:42:46 PM

kiwisub12

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Shoot - i don't have any religious conflict with what i do, mainly because i don't consider the bible the literal word of god. Unless the writers were channeling God, they interperated their theology based on their life experiences and the current day culture - where camels were more valuable than women. In other words, it is a valuable tool but not word for word from God.

I don't think any man can declare that he has a clear line to God - mainly because God is on a level so far above us as to be incomprehensible to us. This would be why i giggle when people declare they know what God wants. How could they? That would be like an ant declaring he knows what a human is doing and why. Not going to happen!

I also don't think we can say who is going to hell, and in the next sentence declare that God loves us like a parent (who decided God was male anyway - oh , yeah - the writers of the bible!

). I'm a parent and i can't think of a crime that would make me turn my face from my child - and am i better than God. Not.

To sum up - i don't think that God gives a flying flip what we do - as long as we don't consciously hurt others. And i don't mean with a cane.

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Post #: 56

RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/23/2009 3:46:14 PM

GoddessImaginos

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kamatzlakkotah

Is it ok for Femdoms to rule over men? Because the Bible says that woman should not rule over man. I'm a submissive male myself, and i've been struggling with this issue for a long time.

The Bible was written by human men from a long time ago. Yes, it's ok. Trust your instinct in all things, for it will never lie to you. Blessings.

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RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/23/2009 3:48:17 PM

Lockit

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This is the trouble of taking one scripture and condensing the whole of the bible to fit that scripture. There were female leaders in the bible. They led men. There is scripture that states a man is the head of household basically, but there are men who do not act as head of household, even back then. Men were influenced by women then just as they are today, but society at that time placed men over women for the most part of the world, whether it was like what the christian leaders of the day taught. Keep in mind that many of the follower's of Christ argued about many things. They were allowed a difference of opinion I believe to teach us not to aruge personal belief's as if the people would be sent to hell if they didn't do things exactly as a certain follower might say they must be. There were sin's that brought death... spiritual death... and sin's that did not.

Keep in mind... that there were male slaves under the female slave owners. There were women who had dreams, visions and gave prophesy... and who started churches.

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RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/23/2009 3:49:24 PM

porcelaine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

thy rod AND thy staff;
they comfort me.......

the rod is a 'switch' (in the tree sense, rather than in the fuckandsuck sense) to goad sheep and tan their fannies (think birchrod, but they dont have birch native) on your ass, and the staff is the good ol' sheep crook.

So don't cane them, stripe their ass.

you are NUTS. *lol* and you're no david either. both speak of divine power.

porcelaine

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Post #: 59

RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/23/2009 3:51:18 PM

GoddessImaginos

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

This is the trouble of taking one scripture and condensing the whole of the bible to fit that scripture. There were female leaders in the bible. They led men. There is scripture that states a man is the head of household basically, but there are men who do not act as head of household, even back then. Men were influenced by women then just as they are today, but society at that time placed men over women for the most part of the world, whether it was like what the christian leaders of the day taught. Keep in mind that many of the follower's of Christ argued about many things. They were allowed a difference of opinion I believe to teach us not to aruge personal belief's as if the people would be sent to hell if they didn't do things exactly as a certain follower might say they must be. There were sin's that brought death... spiritual death... and sin's that did not.

Keep in mind... that there were male slaves under the female slave owners. There were women who had dreams, visions and gave prophesy... and who started churches.

Accurate and well said, way to go Lockit..

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Post #: 60

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