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RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/23/2009 8:47:52 PM   
looking4princess


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quote:

would like to answer your question with the question what makes you think Christians/Jews/Muslims would wrestle with conflicts concerning bdsm and why you limit to these three.


They are the most common religions active in Western Civilization today, although i left out Mormons. So, the limiting was just a matter of economy of writing.

As to the first part of your question i think the many answers and some controversy in this thread justify the Question being asked. But to go into it a bit more specifically let me point out that these Religions have not been shy in rigorously setting standards of conduct and morality in our society. They hear Confessions and claim to have the authority to absolve us from our misbehaviors. They hold the threat of everlasting damnation over our heads.

So, why wouldn't i think growing up deviant in one of the established religions would create internal conflict? You see, i even had to use the word deviant. I'm afraid i find your question as answer an empty dodge... no more than a lawyer's trick. But, if i am wrong in this assessment i would welcome a response from you as to why my original question was misguided. Thanks.


_____________________________

vincent....

Where would we be without the agitators of the world attaching the electrodes of knowledge to the nipples of ignorance? I ask you.

(in reply to Eigenaar)
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RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/23/2009 9:09:00 PM   
GoDolphins


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quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoDolphins

No I can't assess her relationship with God, which is why I said there was more than one possibility.  I even explicitly wrote out more than one and stopped there because I could go on for a while with others.  Yes I did say that I did believe that one was probably true, which might have been a bit hasty for me to just blurt out here but it is what I would guess if I had to, but I didn't say it was for a fact then and I'm not now. 


which was the point i was getting at. it wasn't personal. we can't know why she wrote it. at best we're guessing. but to judge her spirituality based on a statement that could be a complete farce as you've noted seemed a wee bit harsh. especially since the same would be levied on to you if you shared your truth with others from a similar background. which is just as wrong in my opinion, but justifiable in some minds because their views are "dogmatically" inspired.

life is hard enough without sexual hangups. oftentimes the very people judging are into far worse and probably doing it as well. they just hide it and spin the bs better.

porcelaine



If it looked like I was judging her lifestyle then I didn't make myself clear.  I probably shouldn't have said it the way I said it, which I wondered about after posting it, but I decided to leave it up because I thought it was clear what I meant.  But maybe it wasn't, I've been known to not explain myself well in the past on these types of forums.

I do stand by what I said about her attitude though.  I think I can safely say she's got an attitude problem without being too judgmental. 

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/23/2009 9:26:55 PM   
Lessthancharmed


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Anyone can ultimately be influenced by the crowd they hang around with, which is why the proverb says, "He that walketh with wise men shall be wise, but a companion of fools shall be destroyed."  The fact is your friends can really destroy you spiritually.  The Christian call to be out on the highways and byways is, in the context of the parable you're quoting from, in order to "compel them to come in, that my house may be filled."  Are you suggesting going to fetish parties and trying to proselytize, then?  It's something I hadn't considered doing myself.

The reason many claim the wife is to be obedient to her husband is because this is so well borne out in scripture, without a single word to the contrary.  It's also true that husbands are commanded to love their wives and not be bitter against them, as well to be "giving honor unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel."  Female leaders in churches are a very recent phenomenon and not all churches have yet embraced it (notably the Catholics).  There were certainly no female church leaders in the NT at all, nor do they appear in the post-biblical writings of the apostolic church fathers.  In fact, the NT says "but I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man" and "let the women keep silence in the churches."  There are few examples of any female leaders or rulers existing anywhere in the bible.  One of the only instances that may be adduced is that of Jezebel, who was prophesied against for her wickedness and later fell out of a window and was eaten by dogs in fulfillment of the prophecy.

As far as saying that some of what was written was society and the time, wow, that must put you in the uncomfortable position of saying that you sort of believe there's a God and you sort of believe he has a message for us, but you're not really sure what it is and how much of it is just the figment of men's imagination.  Doesn't sound like much of a "creed" to me.  It seems much more likely that some of what you are writing is society and the time, because your position has only recently (in the scope of history) gained any popularity, whereas for thousands of years the natural role of women being submissive to men was well understood and accepted the world over.  If one believes the bible to be the word of God, as I do, then it is an unlikely assumption that God lately changed his mind due to the lobbying of some turn-of-the-century suffragettes or their progressive daughters or their feminist granddaughters or their post-modernist great granddaughters, just as it is equally unsound to assume that God was shy about telling the bulk of humankind what he thought initially because he didn't want to offend any patriarchal religious leaders of the day.

As far as Greek and Hebrew go, I have been reading the bible in its original languages for more than ten years and have found many wonderful insights by interpreting words differently, but nothing that changes any biblical doctrine.  The Greek word for edification is oikodome which has the same meaning as the English word edification, literally, "building up" (just as an edifice is a building, and just as an oikodome in Greek is also sometimes a building).

(in reply to Lockit)
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RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/23/2009 9:27:11 PM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: looking4princess

They hear Confessions and claim to have the authority to absolve us from our misbehaviors. They hold the threat of everlasting damnation over our heads.


these are not Jewish tenets. perhaps you should have stated you were referencing other doctrines and practices. the wide generalization is not applicable across all three. confession is a staple of catholicism. protestants don't do that. the threat of damnation is a Christian concept. which is largely mitigated if you believe the pauline teachings on predestination (romans 8:29). if you're going to take the bible at it's word, then this would seem more logical than the other option. or at the very least less stressful. it all goes back to your beliefs about free will and your willingness to see the doctrines from different viewpoints.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoDolphins

I do stand by what I said about her attitude though.  I think I can safely say she's got an attitude problem without being too judgmental. 


or she likes getting a rise out of people and if that is the case it seems she's successful. thanks for explaining.

porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

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RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/23/2009 9:36:46 PM   
DarkSteven


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I'm Jewish and know of no conflict whatsoever. 




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"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to porcelaine)
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RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/23/2009 11:04:10 PM   
LordDarkPleasure


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With religion you can find stuff that conflicts and stuff that supports anything you want.  just find a something related to quote, even if its remotely related, then plug in your desired interpretation.

Cynicism aside, the main impact of religion on BDSM is actually promoting it a LOT.  Not directly because of religion, but because of what came off religion:

-Puritanism promoted S&M enormously, by seeking to punish anything that was pleasurable, some people became sadists.  Other that would feel guilty from feeling pleasure would seek to punish themselves, promoting masochism.

-No sex before marriage and general guilt about sex:  The best way to promote rape fantasies everywhere!  Girl can't have sex, girl wants sex, girl imagines scenario where she can have sex without feeling guilty. Rape fantasy pops up!  Back in the 1930's the harlequin books the female protagonists would systematically be raped by the male protagonist for this specific reason.  Also its very popular in modern in modern japan for that exact reason also, so one could argue that its more the culture than the religion, but in the case of puritanism the culture was caused by religion.

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/24/2009 12:13:36 AM   
Lockit


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Lessthancharmed... You are correct on the meaning of edification in greek meaning building up. I was wrong in the exact context of the word due to a study we did on it and a couple words and scripture and today I got them confused. I don't have the study any longer but it brought all the words together in context of scripture and there was correction used as building up or edification. So as I said it, I was wrong.

As for the rest... I am too tired to get into that and not sure that I would when not tired. I don't believe in it enough to aruge it to that point. We will have to disagree.

I do not claim christianity as my creed. I once did... but no longer. I said my creed is love.



_____________________________

No matter how old a woman gets, some men will think she was born yesterday! ROFL... I love this place!


(in reply to LordDarkPleasure)
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RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/24/2009 2:06:25 AM   
liks2plzlf


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I do not belive God will punish me for being submissive to a woman. I can still serve the Lord and please a woman, as long as Christ is before all others. The bible does teach a slave should be loyal and obedient to their owner, as long as they are permitted to worship Christ

(in reply to Lockit)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/24/2009 3:25:29 AM   
Eigenaar


Posts: 352
Joined: 5/3/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: looking4princess

quote:

would like to answer your question with the question what makes you think Christians/Jews/Muslims would wrestle with conflicts concerning bdsm and why you limit to these three.


They are the most common religions active in Western Civilization today, although i left out Mormons. So, the limiting was just a matter of economy of writing.

As to the first part of your question i think the many answers and some controversy in this thread justify the Question being asked. But to go into it a bit more specifically let me point out that these Religions have not been shy in rigorously setting standards of conduct and morality in our society. They hear Confessions and claim to have the authority to absolve us from our misbehaviors. They hold the threat of everlasting damnation over our heads.

So, why wouldn't i think growing up deviant in one of the established religions would create internal conflict? You see, i even had to use the word deviant. I'm afraid i find your question as answer an empty dodge... no more than a lawyer's trick. But, if i am wrong in this assessment i would welcome a response from you as to why my original question was misguided. Thanks.

 A user in another thread wonders what his Christian friends would think of him if they found out he's involved in bdsm. I asked him the same ''dodgy'' question I asked you and he said it is obvious Christians would not approve of the lifestyle. I responded with that there was an item on Dutch tv not long ago saying more and more Christians openly advocate poly households and corporal punishment. An American couple spoke about the husband having the final say and owning his wife and that they were looking for another female to join their home. The woman said the husband also determined the sex and that this could be very rough since they decided to live like this and that they found accordance in the Bible.

I also exchanged thoughts with a Muslim user claiming the Qur'an condemned slavery and that Muslims treat females with respect. When I came with verses condoning slavery and others condoning rape and the slaughter of infidels and that the book talks of  men not interested in women and respecting this and that male Muslims will have virgin boys at their disposal in paradise, besides the famous female virgins, this user left the scene.

The Bible equally condones slavery, mass murder, rape and what we have more. I don't have to tell you Mary had an illegitimate child after being raped as a young girl. It is all about conception. Even in the seventies illegitimate children were buried under the path leading to Catholic churches so the believers would walk over them and by doing so dishounor Satan, whom these children blonged to according their faith. The American constitution used to say natives are animals because the Bible does not name them to justify the broken treaties and extinction.

In other words: the religions you mention always lived bdsm to an extent the average practitioner on this site will never reach.

< Message edited by Eigenaar -- 9/24/2009 3:40:40 AM >

(in reply to looking4princess)
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RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/24/2009 9:20:38 AM   
happylittlepet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

I said my creed is love.



Amen.

_____________________________

There are no rules, there is only compassion.

Simple religion:
There is no need for temples,
No need for complicated philosophies
My brain and my heart are my temples
My philosophy is kindness (DL)

'There's a fire burning in my heart'

(in reply to Lockit)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/24/2009 12:19:49 PM   
looking4princess


Posts: 165
Joined: 4/9/2008
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Interesting stuff you write .. thanks.

quote:

Even in the seventies illegitimate children were buried under the path leading to Catholic churches so the believers would walk over them and by doing so dishounor Satan, whom these children blonged to according their faith.

Umm... post mortem, i trust.


quote:

In other words: the religions you mention always lived bdsm to an extent the average practitioner on this site will never reach.


And your tongue is planted firmly in ..... your cheek, right?

_____________________________

vincent....

Where would we be without the agitators of the world attaching the electrodes of knowledge to the nipples of ignorance? I ask you.

(in reply to Eigenaar)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/24/2009 12:37:19 PM   
looking4princess


Posts: 165
Joined: 4/9/2008
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quote:

In fact, the NT says "but I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man" and "let the women keep silence in the churches." There are few examples of any female leaders or rulers existing anywhere in the bible. In fact, the NT says "but I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man" and "let the women keep silence in the churches." There are few examples of any female leaders or rulers existing anywhere in the bible. ......
<snip>
whereas for thousands of years the natural role of women being submissive to men was well understood and accepted the world over. If one believes the bible to be the word of God, as I do, then it is an unlikely assumption that God lately changed his mind due to the lobbying of some turn-of-the-century suffragettes or their progressive daughters or their feminist granddaughters or their post-modernist great granddaughters,


Are we to infer then and would you assert that Female Dominant/male submissive relationship is an abomination to the Lord? So, there at least is a quite sizable discord between what we do and what god commands?

_____________________________

vincent....

Where would we be without the agitators of the world attaching the electrodes of knowledge to the nipples of ignorance? I ask you.

(in reply to Lessthancharmed)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/24/2009 1:47:11 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
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From: Nashville, TN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LordDarkPleasure

With religion you can find stuff that conflicts and stuff that supports anything you want.  just find a something related to quote, even if its remotely related, then plug in your desired interpretation.

20 points.



_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees


NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to LordDarkPleasure)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/24/2009 4:44:56 PM   
Eigenaar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: looking4princess

Interesting stuff you write .. thanks.

quote:

Even in the seventies illegitimate children were buried under the path leading to Catholic churches so the believers would walk over them and by doing so dishounor Satan, whom these children blonged to according their faith.

Umm... post mortem, i trust.


quote:

In other words: the religions you mention always lived bdsm to an extent the average practitioner on this site will never reach.


And your tongue is planted firmly in ..... your cheek, right?
Post mortem? I would not bet on that and I have a long tongue but it won't lick away facts.

< Message edited by Eigenaar -- 9/24/2009 4:46:18 PM >

(in reply to looking4princess)
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RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/25/2009 1:37:36 PM   
bliss4us09


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I see the Dom role as being in the service of the sub's being and therefore of Being Itself - not a contradiction with the basic tenets of most world religions. Having said that many religious people have their own kinds of "hard limits" on morality and for them, the conflict must be painful.

(in reply to looking4princess)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/25/2009 4:25:27 PM   
Elipsis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MeaganBlake

What a fascinating thread! I am a Christian and a Domme, and in the begining I did have a bit of a struggle justifying the two. However, my slave turned control of the relationship over to me at the very beginning, so in a way, I am submitting to his will by dominating him. If that makes any sense...


...people do all kinds of impressive mental gymnastics to try to make their lifestyles fit into the silly rules of religions.

(in reply to MeaganBlake)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/25/2009 6:56:28 PM   
looking4princess


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Joined: 4/9/2008
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quote:

The bible says not to take on the sin of another and also that if in your heart you believe it is a sin, then it is a sin. You have condemned yourself in a sense. Teaching grace would be a very good thing and allowing for grace without taking advantage of forgiveness would have amazing results in people's lives.


Excuse me, L, i thought Grace was a state of being, that is, a condition of being right with Jesus. I did not know it was something you could teach. Or are you referring to grace (small g) as compassion for yourself and for others. Do you mean forgiveness on a Humanistic level? If a person is in Grace (i.e. Christian, as in John 23 ...I am the light and the Way ... he that believeth in Me, etc) well then that person would not be in this lifestyle to begin with and would have no need for forgiveness.

Well, i probably screwed that up good, so please correct me if i am gone astray. i know you will. ~~smiles~~


_____________________________

vincent....

Where would we be without the agitators of the world attaching the electrodes of knowledge to the nipples of ignorance? I ask you.

(in reply to Lockit)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/25/2009 9:34:55 PM   
DavanKael


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It's interesting how knowing what is sacred to one's self without the need for a set dogma eradicates the quandries that so many seem to have in reconciling their beliefs to living true to themselves.
  Davan

_____________________________

May you live as long as you wish & love as long as you live
-Robert A Heinlein

It's about the person & the bond,not the bondage
-Me

Waiting is

170NZ (Aka:Sex God Du Jour) pts

Jesus,I've ALWAYS been a deviant
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(in reply to looking4princess)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/25/2009 11:11:30 PM   
Lockit


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Grace to me is unwarranted consideration and it can include many things... forgiveness is one and it doesn't have to come from above so to speak. Add a little grace with love... wowza!

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No matter how old a woman gets, some men will think she was born yesterday! ROFL... I love this place!


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RE: Religious conflict with bdsm relationships or fanta... - 9/26/2009 1:40:38 AM   
LPslittleclip


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i am trained to assist with many different religious activities. i my self don't have a problem with BDSM and religion i just don't follow the mainstream stuff and just be true and honest and helpful.

(in reply to MeaganBlake)
Profile   Post #: 100
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