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RE: Dems: GOP rooting against America - 10/6/2009 7:23:33 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

So, in other words you're just going to ignore everything I said and continue on with saying the same things I just pointed out to you were wrong.
Wrong? They aren't shutting down Saturn? There won't be people laid off and affected? There is a merger partner? Obama didn't nationalize the failed auto manufacturers? He isn't, as the primary lien holder, responsible for what happens with the company? That instead of trying to do anything about saving an existing company didn't take priority over shilling for Chicago?

The fact that some are still working on SUV's changes any of that?

Sure, they are making SUV's. What's incorrect about what I said?

Keep up the "all is well!" representation - how's that working for you?

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RE: Dems: GOP rooting against America - 10/6/2009 7:26:05 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Let me tell you how it looks from where I sit on one of the worst days I've had in a long time.

Whether the Olympics in Chicago would have made money or not is irrelevant, money would have been spent now. Jobs would have been saved and created now.

Anyone cheering that those jobs weren't saved or created has some explaining to do.

My company has been struggling along for some time. We hadn't laid anyone off but we weren't filling jobs if someone left. We had several preliminary deals for computer work with the Chicago Olympic Committee. We weren't going to get rich and these were deals where we competed hard for the deals and our profit margins would have been very tight but they would have been work for at least the next 2 years. Now we don't have them so I spent the morning laying off the 6 people on my team while the other 2 team leaders did the same to their teams. So 15 people lost their jobs today because of something right wingers celebrated on Friday.

I had never fired or laid anyone off except for cause before today.



So your saying if Chicago had gotten the bid, those 15 people would still have jobs?  Did the decision made on friday really impact you that hard that only 3 days later you had to lay people off because of it? Wow that is incredible.


I'm saying that the only reason those people were still employed was we had those deals signed. How is that incredible?

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RE: Dems: GOP rooting against America - 10/6/2009 7:30:23 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		What makes right-wing mobs tick?

"Those raising the specter of government ordered euthanasia are defending the innocence of others because they are so terribly conflicted about giving voice to their own. They feel terribly guilty and ashamed of their own legitimate dependency needs. Unable to accept them, they project them onto others, locating them-in a sense, the vulnerable and innocent parts of themselves--in others who are indisputably dependent to whose defense they can safely come. My view is that they can't experience fully that dimension of their own lives in which they are innocent and helpless, for example, in their families, communities, school systems, workplaces, and health care system. Their militancy on behalf of grandma is a disguised once-removed militancy on behalf of themselves."

Psychology Today . This in response of the silly opinion that one side of the political equation is more prone to feelings of victimization than the other, when it's evident that victimhood is a human emotion that affects everybody, left and right.

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RE: Dems: GOP rooting against America - 10/6/2009 7:31:05 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Who is claiming they never had gone before. I know for a fact it was done for LA and Atlanta

A sitting President traveled half way around the world for a 5 minute speech in the middle of an economic meltdown. I don't remember that, and couldn't find any reference. Please point me in the right direction.

Merc, this is unbecoming of you.

This is what you had written that I responded to and that you deleted from your reply:
quote:

If the US never previously sent a "head of State" how could it have happened before?

There was nothing about the economic situation. You were just claiming erroneously that no President had ever gone to one of these IOC votes before despite the fact that they had.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Dems: GOP rooting against America - 10/6/2009 7:45:17 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

There was nothing about the economic situation. You were just claiming erroneously that no President had ever gone to one of these IOC votes before despite the fact that they had.

DK,
Seriously, which sitting US President went and presented for an IOC vote before Obama; good economy or bad?

Am I confusing your representation that they have?

You know what's been silent on this matter and is also relevant on other issues like Health Care? While traveling I encountered many who challenged me, as an American, wondering why with all our resources we couldn't mobilize and put some kind of health care net for our citizens. At first glance it does seem incongruous. Maybe it doesn't make economic sense now, but there were times when it would have been practical. However, there is a major distinction that is rarely address when we are pointed to European countries and asked "Why can't you do that?"

I can see more people looking down at the South Bay and LA from my front deck than the populations of most European countries. The numbers involved and the complexity of a nation with 51 distinct State bureaucracies having their own agenda. The US better compares to the European Union.

If you are comparing Obama's trip with a foreign leader there still is a major distinction. When the King or President of a European country goes to shill, he's shilling because tourism ranks in the top 3 industries for these nations. You can buy a tourist pass to meet the president, king, queen of these places; just like seeing Mickey Mouse.

Has the US and its President been reduced to this same level in your eyes?

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 10/6/2009 8:00:54 AM >

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Dems: GOP rooting against America - 10/6/2009 7:58:36 AM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


People were...you're right about that...but they certainly had no problem cheering for Bush's failures.  And the left had no scarcity of critics cheering for Bush's failures.  I've yet to see people...me, Merc, anyone else on the conservative side cheering on our neighbor's job loss.  I have heard us state that it is a result of Obama's misguided policies and yes, just like the left with Bush, there are critics on the right who cheer for Obama's failures.  If you don't remember those such as Bill Maher or any of the PMSNBC crew cheering, then you must not have been paying attention.




Can you show me one example of this?

I mean an actual source and a link that shows anyone on the left cheering a failure of Bush that was detrimental to the country.

Sure...check out any of the archived HBO series starring Bill Maher during Bush's time in office.

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RE: Dems: GOP rooting against America - 10/6/2009 7:59:37 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Wrong? They aren't shutting down Saturn? There won't be people laid off and affected? There is a merger partner? Obama didn't nationalize the failed auto manufacturers? He isn't, as the primary lien holder, responsible for what happens with the company? That instead of trying to do anything about saving an existing company didn't take priority over shilling for Chicago?

The fact that some are still working on SUV's changes any of that?

Sure, they are making SUV's. What's incorrect about what I said?



Uhhhhhhh.....................just about everything.

You've made a disingenuous attempt to say Spring Hill is going to be a ghost town (your own words) when the plant started to be converted to Chevy production long before Obama even became a viable candidate.

You then continue by trying to imply he has some authority over day-to-day managerial decisions. 

Which, even if that were true, the sale of Saturn to Penske failed due to Penske's own mismanagement.

A consensus opinion you will find in any business publication you care to look at.

But now you're trying to backpedal and move the goalposts.  Do I really need to re-post your original comments to refresh your memory?

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RE: Dems: GOP rooting against America - 10/6/2009 8:06:03 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


People were...you're right about that...but they certainly had no problem cheering for Bush's failures.  And the left had no scarcity of critics cheering for Bush's failures.  I've yet to see people...me, Merc, anyone else on the conservative side cheering on our neighbor's job loss.  I have heard us state that it is a result of Obama's misguided policies and yes, just like the left with Bush, there are critics on the right who cheer for Obama's failures.  If you don't remember those such as Bill Maher or any of the PMSNBC crew cheering, then you must not have been paying attention.




Can you show me one example of this?

I mean an actual source and a link that shows anyone on the left cheering a failure of Bush that was detrimental to the country.


quote:

Sure...check out any of the archived HBO series starring Bill Maher during Bush's time in office.


So, I guess the answer is no.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 10/6/2009 8:07:37 AM >

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RE: Dems: GOP rooting against America - 10/6/2009 8:10:15 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Wrong? They aren't shutting down Saturn? There won't be people laid off and affected? There is a merger partner? Obama didn't nationalize the failed auto manufacturers? He isn't, as the primary lien holder, responsible for what happens with the company? That instead of trying to do anything about saving an existing company didn't take priority over shilling for Chicago?

The fact that some are still working on SUV's changes any of that?

Sure, they are making SUV's. What's incorrect about what I said?


Uhhhhhhh.....................just about everything.

You've made a disingenuous attempt to say Spring Hill is going to be a ghost town (your own words) when the plant started to be converted to Chevy production long before Obama even became a viable candidate.

You then continue by trying to imply he has some authority over day-to-day managerial decisions. 

Which, even if that were true, the sale of Saturn to Penske failed due to Penske's own mismanagement.

A consensus opinion you will find in any business publication you care to look at.

But now you're trying to backpedal and move the goalposts.  Do I really need to re-post your original comments to refresh your memory?


Wrong on all counts, but keep trying.

What a tactic "everything" without specifics - Very similar to Congress and the Administration's position on many things. I see where you need to be so obtuse when the specifics don't provide any support. Let's look at "everything" and perhaps this time you will be responsive in specific. Doubt it - but we'll see.

Closing Saturn is a good thing and will not affect the economy of Spring Hill nor the workers there of at the Saturn dealership thoughout the nation ? That's really your position?

Obama's responsibility began and ended with paying out millions to GM, (bonus money?) but he's relinquished, and you think its okay, all accountability and responsibility once the money was given to them. That's really your position?

Penske was the ONLY saviour and no other merger partner was possible to consider, even Ford, or the other US subsidiary, Chrysler didn't want this product. Yet the Administration felt it essential to put millions into investing in GM for a poor product. That's really your position?

Bail out of GM a GREAT move by this Administration. Managing their investment isn't part of their responsibility. That's really your position?

Let's peddle forward on reality not your version of it.

PS - 'Tombstone' is technically NOT a ghost town ether - they just don't have a silver industry anymore; but people still go there to see what they 'used to' do. Are smilier plans in the works for a 'Saturn' themed amusement park? "Hey kids-they used to make cars here!"

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 10/6/2009 8:13:49 AM >

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RE: Dems: GOP rooting against America - 10/6/2009 8:10:35 AM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Actually, tis not victimology to call someone on their own B. S.. And besides, victimology is the purview of the left, not the right. That's why you need all the tax money you can lay your hands on...for your endless list of "victims". And you folks can keep it.


Justifying the actions of one’s group by shouting “you started it” is victim schtick. Saying things like “We don’t play the victim card, that’s what you lefties do” is playing the “I know you are but what am I” card, a classic strategy among six year olds throwing temper tantrums.

But I still have yet to see anyone address the fact that, whether it is the case or not, the GOP is viewed as being obstructionist past the point of acceptability. Let’s look at the numbers in this poll, for example:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/25/us/politics/25poll.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&ref=politics

Take a look at some of the numbers concerning republicans. 76% of those polled do not believe the GOP has even advanced a clear health care plan. While Over half of those surveyed believe that democratic support for the health care proposal is based on party politics, nearly two thirds believe that republican opposition is based on party politics. In general polls are showing that more people believe that Obama is trying to work with the republicans than think the republicans are trying to work with Obama. General approval of GOP members of congress sits at about 30% and has languished there for months. In short, while Obama is falling in the polls, the republicans are not rising in them.

So rather than going back over the instances of left wing individuals who have done poor ole’ Bush wrong, when is some conservative going to speak of a way that they are going to change this perception? Or is it just the plan of the right to try to make Obama look worse, at any cost, rather than make themselves look better?


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RE: Dems: GOP rooting against America - 10/6/2009 8:17:09 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales
In general polls are showing that more people believe that Obama is trying to work with the republicans than think the republicans are trying to work with Obama.

I find it very depressing that he's even trying to reach an accommodation with them at this point. Surely the fuss over the stimulus package should have shown him he was pissing into the wind with that approach?

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 131
RE: Dems: GOP rooting against America - 10/6/2009 8:45:38 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Take a look at some of the numbers concerning republicans. 76% of those polled do not believe the GOP has even advanced a clear health care plan.

Pragmatically how could they get one out of committee?

However, the poll shows how many people really have been left behind by the US educational system.

What is the Democratic health care plan? Or would you prefer which version? The one coming out of the Senate committee without a government pay option that Nancy Pelosi swears she'll kill? Or the one coming out of the House which has as much Democratic opposition as Republican?

There is no 'plan' to poll about or discuss. Were there, the Republicans are still out of the loop. It doesn't take one to pass and sign any bill. I keep challenging them to do so. Conceptually I bet 100% would say there should be 'something' done. Would a unanimous response of that nature be meaningful?

Appreciating your constant reference to 'cat herding'; maybe those independent, high thinkers, on the Democratic side currently against any version being proposed are right. Maybe they just don't have their campaign PAC money at stake.

Other than that, I'm happy not to see the Republican party rise at the same rate of fall by the Democrats and Obama. Better served is my 'anybody but an incumbent' party.

The Administration apologists put Party ahead of pragmatism. Until that changes there can be no consensus and progress on the issues. Spending time worrying about, or worse documenting, who's rooting for or against based upon party affiliation serves to keep the status quo in place.

Point to results to date - what's good? What success is there to cheer for on either side?

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 10/6/2009 9:21:45 AM >

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RE: Dems: GOP rooting against America - 10/6/2009 9:59:29 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Uhhhhhhh.....................just about everything.

You've made a disingenuous attempt to say Spring Hill is going to be a ghost town (your own words) when the plant started to be converted to Chevy production long before Obama even became a viable candidate.

You then continue by trying to imply he has some authority over day-to-day managerial decisions. 

Which, even if that were true, the sale of Saturn to Penske failed due to Penske's own mismanagement.

A consensus opinion you will find in any business publication you care to look at.

But now you're trying to backpedal and move the goalposts.  Do I really need to re-post your original comments to refresh your memory?


Wrong on all counts, but keep trying.

What a tactic "everything" without specifics - Very similar to Congress and the Administration's position on many things. I see where you need to be so obtuse when the specifics don't provide any support. Let's look at "everything" and perhaps this time you will be responsive in specific. Doubt it - but we'll see.
 

I'm being obtuse?  As opposed to you being totally wrong? 

You claimed Spring Hill was going to become a "ghost town", apparently not aware they had re-tooled for Chevy production.

You then tried, and are still trying, to back your factually inaccurate point by still saying it is Obama's fault.

What specifics would you like?  There are loads of links to back what I said earlier regarding GM, Saturn, and Penske.
What precisely would you like me to prove?

quote:


Closing Saturn is a good thing and will not affect the economy of Spring Hill nor the workers there of at the Saturn dealership thoughout the nation ? That's really your position?


No, it will affect the dealerships, but again you are moving the goalposts.

Originally you claimed to be heartbroken over the workers at Spring Hill who had lost their jobs..............only they didn't.

Now you are in distress about the dealers and their employees.

Someone once mentioned on these boards that we shouldn't reward failure.  Any idea who that guy was?


quote:



Obama's responsibility began and ended with paying out millions to GM, (bonus money?) but he's relinquished, and you think its okay, all accountability and responsibility once the money was given to them. That's really your position?


Yes, unless you believe that the President is now the CEO of AIG, Bank of America, JP Chase, etc..

quote:


Penske was the ONLY saviour and no other merger partner was possible to consider, even Ford, or the other US subsidiary, Chrysler didn't want this product. Yet the Administration felt it essential to put millions into investing in GM for a poor product. That's really your position?


It was NOT the administrations responsibility.

GM is an independent corporation, regardless of the government's financial stake. 

The government has no more voice than any other shareholder so let's stop trying to pretend that the government has "nationalized" GM.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Dems: GOP rooting against America - 10/6/2009 10:27:51 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

You claimed Spring Hill was going to become a "ghost town", apparently not aware they had re-tooled for Chevy production.


I'm trying hard not to make you look, at minimum, misinformed. I was really hoping you'd actually look up what's going on in Spring Hill. But no - like your support of the Administration - you are blind to reality.

For 'Sping Hill' - THIS is reality:
Eventually, GM decided to move production elsewhere. The last Saturn made in Tennessee rolled off the line in 2007. After retooling, GM started building the Chevrolet Traverse in Spring Hill, but that production is now on its way out too.
In November, it will be moved to a plant in Michigan, leaving Spring Hill's plant idle.

I'll be happy to accept your apology, and admission that you didn't know accurate information.

You want an example of 'disenfranchisement'? "Resident Joyce Avello puts the blame squarely on the federal government. It's an abomination what the government is doing to the automotive industry ... Get it out of the government's hands. They don't know how to do cars. They can hardly do the government ." IBID

However at least one resident agrees with you and doesn't think it's the end of 'Spring Hill'; With Saturn gone and the local plant preparing to idle, at 94, G.W. Bowman said, "Of course, it's going to hurt, but it's not going to kill Spring Hill." IBID

BTW - READING sources come in many flavors - this one is from CNN. (I don't watch CNN either.)

Now I don't run GM or have anywhere near the employees of the closing Saturn plant; however, were I the major investor in it, I'd be looking for alternatives to Penske. Even if I didn't give a damn about the people of Spring Hill I'd try to recoup my investment. However, I don't think this Administration considers tax money spent as investment.

But that's just me -
quote:

Dinwiddie said he has been working with General Motors on a daily basis, and has invited President Obama and the auto recovery czar to come and tour the plant.
IBID
I appreciate the President having more important obligations to his money people in Chicago and had to instead go to Copenhagen. Nice place BTW - I hope he saw 'The Little Mermaid'. A bit anti-climatic, when you see it, but its still a 'must see' when in town.

Now - lets move on...

quote:

Yes, unless you believe that the President is now the CEO of AIG, Bank of America, JP Chase, etc
Your position is that the Administration provided money with no accountability? As the primary shareholder of those companies Obama IS the de facto CEO of all of them. Although I don't think he has set up BoA at that level; the other references you gave do qualify for majority shareholder status.

Not only do I stand behind that representation, but I'll point to is as a reason for the moribund economy. There is no leadership. The failure of these companies continues. However, when their survival is based upon ongoing cash going down the same drain, I doubt they will complain or do anything about it.

Why were the car companies left off this list? As the CEO you can make an argument that the federal rebate program, 'cash for clunkers' was a good move. However in the void of that program ending it seems "now what?", doesn't have an answer.

quote:

GM is an independent corporation, regardless of the government's financial stake. let's stop trying to pretend that the government has "nationalized" GM
What would you call it?

If it were an "independent corporation" it wouldn't have needed a bail out and bankruptcy protection. Its viability is directly in the hands of this Administration's decision to provide them operating capital. Allegedly it was to save jobs. Based upon the abandonment of the employees at the Spring Hill Saturn plant there must be some other agenda served.

Or was the Bush II, Congress approved, Obama signed, stimulus just a waste of tax money?

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 10/6/2009 10:37:49 AM >

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RE: Dems: GOP rooting against America - 10/6/2009 10:36:17 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


You want an example of 'disenfranchisement'? "Resident Joyce Avello puts the blame squarely on the federal government. It's an abomination what the government is doing to the automotive industry ... Get it out of the government's hands. They don't know how to do cars. They can hardly do the government ." IBID




But in defense of only one thing, our auto industry does not know how to do cars, either; Merc.

Ron

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Dems: GOP rooting against America - 10/6/2009 11:19:40 AM   
Moonhead


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Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		It does seem a bit strange that people who had no issue with the Government doing cars through forty odd years of bizarre protectionist economic measures suddenly started shitting bricks when GM got a handout.

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Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Dems: GOP rooting against America - 10/6/2009 11:32:28 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
It does seem a bit strange that people who had no issue with the Government doing cars through forty odd years of bizarre protectionist economic measures suddenly started shitting bricks when GM got a handout.

Forget about 40 years, although I don't know what "bizarre protectionist economic measures" you are referencing. If there really was some, why would GM need a bail out in the first place?

However, I wonder why more people aren't "shitting brinks" when they see their bail-out, stimulus tax money, allegedly represented to prevent situations like the Saturn plant closing, wasted.

Obvious at any red light stop in the US, GM doesn't inspire consumer confidence evidenced by the brand names of the cars around you. There was choice involved, and no reason to be "shitting bricks" when GM management made their decisions. However, when tax money is used, seeing it wasted should generate much more shit than it has to date considering the results to date.

"Forty odd years" takes us back to 1969. What protectionist economic measure was implemented back then, or since then, on behalf of the US auto industry? Whatever it was, again based upon the red light survey - it sucked!

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RE: Dems: GOP rooting against America - 10/6/2009 11:47:14 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		It sucked, and it achieved very little (protectionist measures are rarely successful) but it did put the big three into the isolationist, non competitive position that's now pretty much destroyed them as businesses.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Dems: GOP rooting against America - 10/6/2009 12:18:19 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
It sucked, and it achieved very little (protectionist measures are rarely successful) but it did put the big three into the isolationist, non competitive position that's now pretty much destroyed them as businesses.
Stipulated, the "big three" are non competitive; at least two of them should have been allowed to reap the results of their failure. However the government stepped in preventing their earned failure, which generated a reaction that you refer to as "shitting bricks" when tax money is wasted when used to bail them out.

The question is WHAT "protectionist measures" were in place since 1969? A better question may be; what happened to them? Who eliminated them?

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RE: Dems: GOP rooting against America - 10/6/2009 12:21:54 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


People were...you're right about that...but they certainly had no problem cheering for Bush's failures.  And the left had no scarcity of critics cheering for Bush's failures.  I've yet to see people...me, Merc, anyone else on the conservative side cheering on our neighbor's job loss.  I have heard us state that it is a result of Obama's misguided policies and yes, just like the left with Bush, there are critics on the right who cheer for Obama's failures.  If you don't remember those such as Bill Maher or any of the PMSNBC crew cheering, then you must not have been paying attention.




Can you show me one example of this?

I mean an actual source and a link that shows anyone on the left cheering a failure of Bush that was detrimental to the country.


quote:

Sure...check out any of the archived HBO series starring Bill Maher during Bush's time in office.


So, I guess the answer is no.
No...the answer is right there in front of you.  Your choice as to whether or not to punch it in on your computer.

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