RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/10/2009 12:52:09 PM)

You can express your anger, certainly, Master.

At what point does the threat of physical violence no longer become an illegal act? Sorry, i just cant see the two on the same level. Expressing a dislike for someone being from the same state as you are in no way is a threat.... on any level. Threatening someone with physical violence because they are expressing a "freedom" is, in my opinion, and in the courts eyes, an act of violence.

Unless communicating threats and exciting others to violence are somehow now allowed and i missed that change in the laws.



thornhappy -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/10/2009 1:01:27 PM)

Meanwhile...back at the OP...

One of my favorite blogs (stonekettle station, damn does he do great woodworking) is written by a retired Navy chief.  He lives in Palin territory, and I first read his blog while looking for local views of Palin.

He's currently working as a contractor at a local AFB, and recently followed a guy into the gates that had "Obamanation" and "Fuck Obama" bumper stickers.  He wanted to see who was driving (if the guy was military, it'd be a violation of Article 88 ), and found the man to be another contractor.  Looks like owner was in the "revolutionary" camp, judging by the conversation.  Working at an Air Force Base.  That gives me the willies.

Now, as to radio, I'd bet they're on shortwave.  Some squirelly folks can be found there.

thornhappy



Thadius -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/10/2009 1:13:32 PM)

Hiya again tazzy,

Indeed there is a point at which the threat of physical violence is no longer simply just free expression. At that point it does indeed become illegal. This is part of the reason I used the example I did.

Some folks see 'Old Glory as a physical representation of themselves, even consider it a part of who and what they are. Some of those folks feel that the blood they shed defending or serving their country is what makes up that flag. (I do realize that I am belaboring the point and perhaps making some generalizations) Perhaps, it is time to review the subjective judgement of the court that flag burning is simply speech, or perhaps a new case could be made that such an act is actually an assault on the folks that feel the way I described.

I only believe in using violence or physical force, when and if it is necessary. Nowadays, I would be more likely to grab a fire extinguisher and put out the flag and possibly "accidently" put out the flagburner, you know for safety reasons.

As far as I know it is still against the law in most (if not all) places, to threaten or encourage violence. ;)

The political speeches and adverts the last few years, make wonder if that line isn't getting fuzzier though. I have heard interviews in which they say things like "If candidate A is not elected there will be riots in the streets" or "If candidate B is elected there will be more church burnings, lynchings, and people dragged through the streets". It doesn't matter which party those are from, as both parties have used such tactics. It still comes close to recommending certain actions, or the fear of certain actions. Where do those types of statements fall when it comes to that line?

I thank you for the stimulating conversation, and look forward to your remarks.

I wish you well,
Thadius



tazzygirl -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/10/2009 2:02:50 PM)

Hi again Master

I truly cannot find any points of yours that differ from my own. Violence solves very little, and ends up getting us into more trouble than its worth.

The last 12 years or so have been an eye opening experience when it comes to the media. News networks allowed to lie, Political statements encouraging anarchy promoted by those who insist they have no political ties, what used to be said behyind close doors, only to our closest friends and families now on twitter like we have the right, suddenly, to be extremely racist, violent, angry, regardless at who it is aimed.

Its almost... almost.. seeming to me that if its in the realm of politics it is no longer is off limits to express any view, thought or idea, regardless of others rights. a look at the recent discussion about threats towards the President certainly makes that point.

For me, any time a threat is made in the physical sense, thats over the line. My dad says.. "if your gonna threaten, you should have already did it. Why warn them?"

Or is it a case of.... one is scared and the other is glad of it... so both will say what they want, knowing neither have the guts to do anything about it? Even that is a scary thought. Men that i know will, eventually, do something.

To express a threat seems like a futile attempt to "win". Yet there are those times when its not an empty threat. So do we allow them to continue? or do we call each and every one of them out on the carpet?

My last thought... and this is not aimed at you, Master.

Is what a young woman expressed on a stage so harmful, is her ability to hurt with words so devastating, that a male feels his manhood has been that exploited that he has to reort to threats of death in order to silence her?

Sticks and Stones.... but.. if the words can affect anyone to that level... i feel they have far deeper issues.

tazzy



Moonhead -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/10/2009 2:08:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Is what a young woman expressed on a stage so harmful, is her ability to hurt with words so devastating, that a male feels his manhood has been that exploited that he has to reort to threats of death in order to silence her?

These are country fans you're talking about, tazzy. Just look at the horribly jingoistic nonsense people like Tobey Keith were putting out at the time...



tazzygirl -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/10/2009 2:11:40 PM)

I happen to enjoy country music. I also happen to come from a family that has always adored country music.

"I don't even know the Dixie chicks, but I find it an insult for all the men and women who fought and died in past wars when almost the majority of America jumped down their throats for voicing an opinion. It was like a verbal witch-hunt and lynching."

Merle Haggard

Toby and the Chicks had their own issues at the time.



MstrssScarlet -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/10/2009 2:41:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

**Fast Reply**

Speakin of attempts to control, monitor, and possibly infringe on free political speech... Isn't the current White House the one that had setup a program to have citizens report other citizens for "fishy" statements? Prolly not.

quote:

(emphasis mine)
The White House

There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to [email protected].



I won't even get into the cute photo-op last week with all the doctors in "their" white coats.....[8|] ; except to say: what some would call free speech, others would call pure political propaganda (and there is nothing wrong with that either).


You are dead on! THIS is one of the things that scares people about the current administration. They're not kept away from Obama when they protest like they were with Bush? Says who?! I haven't seen one shot in the media yet that showed protesters or those "crazy teabaggers" as you like to refer to them anywhere close to the Whitehouse. The mainstream media constantly underestimates their numbers (oops!) in an attempt to sweep them under the rug. They're simply protesting in a quiet, organized manner because they're fed up with an administration that's determined to do what they want no matter how much the public objects. Would they be more credible if they were out there with signs marching in front of the White House?
Bush may not have been a great speaker, but he didn't have to stop in the middle of a speech to instruct the person operating the teleprompter that he needed to speed up. Obama can give a great speech, I'll give him that. He's a slick talker as long as he's got something to read from. Bush may not have been perfect, but he's not the idiot the mainstream media made him out to be either. And just how long do you keep blaming Bush for everything that goes wrong?
And the things Obama has done just haven't gone wrong yet? OMG You're kidding, right? He's put us into more debt in the short time he's been in office than Bush did in eight years. He did that bailing out companies that should have been left to sink or swim. That's called capitalism and that's another thing that scares people. Everything he's done since he's gotten into office stinks of socialism. There are lots of plans out there to improve healthcare and reduce the costs, but he's determined to convert the system to socialized medicine. We can already tell that doesn't work just by looking at England and Canada, yet he keeps insisting that's the answer. With the latest add-on, your "free" healthcare will cost you 10% of your annual salary. The government is taking over banks and private companies. That doesn't sound like socialism to you?
Maher didn't get in trouble because he said the terrorists weren't pussies. He called them downright heroes! He deserved everything that got thrown at him. Personally, I don't consider the people that ran those planes into buildings full of innocent people heroes and losing his show was just good business. People were infuriated with his remark and the show would have been boycotted if they had kept him anyway.
For all of you who are afraid of a coming coup, I have news for you. You're already in the middle of one. I only hope we find some people worth voting into office next year to turn things around.
Mistress Scarlet



tazzygirl -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/10/2009 2:51:07 PM)

Those who live in Canada and post here have already voiced their opinions on the efficiency of their health care.... point blank.. for them.. it works a hell of alot better than ours does here. And part of the problem with our health care isnt the care we receive.. its the denial of access! Or are you so caught up in the politics that you cant see that?

quote:

He's put us into more debt in the short time he's been in office than Bush did in eight years. He did that bailing out companies that should have been left to sink or swim.


I have posted on this as well. In the 8 years of Bush, between stimulus and Tarp, he costs the country over 1 trillion. Bush started some of the "capitalism" you are complaining about. I dont blame him, its just what had to happen to prevent our contry from financially going under. But, if you are going to complain that Obama was the cause, the one who implemented alot of that, then i have to call you on your bs.



ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/10/2009 2:57:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssScarlet





You are dead on! THIS is one of the things that scares people about the current administration. They're not kept away from Obama when they protest like they were with Bush? Says who?!



Says me, unless you can provide some evidence otherwise. The fact that you don't see people marching in front of the White House doesn't mean they're being prevented from doing so. You're simply making an assumption. You seem to make a lot of them , in fact.



quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssScarlet
And the things Obama has done just haven't gone wrong yet? OMG You're kidding, right? He's put us into more debt in the short time he's been in office than Bush did in eight years. He did that bailing out companies that should have been left to sink or swim. That's called capitalism and that's another thing that scares people. Everything he's done since he's gotten into office stinks of socialism.


So can you explain to us what the negative results have been of these policies? So far, all you've done is explain why you don't like them, and what you think might go wrong in the future. You haven't yet said a word about what has actually gone wrong with these economic policies as of yet.


quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssScarlet
There are lots of plans out there to improve healthcare and reduce the costs, but he's determined to convert the system to socialized medicine. We can already tell that doesn't work just by looking at England and Canada, yet he keeps insisting that's the answer.


Not this again.

OK, go ahead - explain what doesn't work about the Britich and Canadian health care systems. Please leave out the usual myths about people waiting 12 years for cancer surgery, and no fair peeking at the radio while answering. Also, please explain how all these plans from the "health care" companies' lobbyists are supposed to improve health care and cut costs. For this one, go ahead and ask Glenn Beck all you like; see if he really has any details by now.


quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssScarlet
With the latest add-on, your "free" healthcare will cost you 10% of your annual salary.


Got a link? And for that matter, how much is it costing now?



SpinnerofTales -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/10/2009 3:19:07 PM)

quote:

Maher didn't get in trouble because he said the terrorists weren't pussies. He called them downright heroes! He deserved everything that got thrown at him. Personally, I don't consider the people that ran those planes into buildings full of innocent people heroes and losing his show was just good business. People were infuriated with his remark and the show would have been boycotted if they had kept him anyway. ORIGINAL: MstrssScarlet


Maher didn't say that the terrorists were heros. What he said was that it is not a cowardly act to take on a suicide mission. He also said it takes less courage to push a button 2,000 miles away from the target than it does to drive a plane your in into the side of a building.

I don't see anything wrong with an accurate assessment of one's enemies. I remember very clearly Bush promising that the Iraq invasion would be over in three months and that the Iraqui people would throw flowers at our soldier's feet when they entered Baghdad. I think this a very good example of how a lie underestimating one's enemy can result in a lot of people killed.



SpinnerofTales -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/10/2009 3:21:42 PM)

~FR~

Just a little "follow the money" comment about health care. Whenever the public option is taken off the table or the healthcare reform effort looks like it's taking a hit, the insurance company stocks go up. When the public option looks like it has a chance or healthcare reform moves forward, the insurance company stocks go down. Now what does that tell you about who Wall Street thinks is going to benefit from the lack of a public option?




tazzygirl -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/10/2009 3:33:45 PM)

quote:

What Maher said later in the show, however, is what made headlines. Panelist Dinesh D'Souza mentioned that he didn't think the terrorists were "cowards," as George Bush had described them. Maher replied: "We have been the cowards. Lobbing cruise missiles from two thousand miles away. That's cowardly. Staying in the airplane when it hits the building. Say what you want about it. Not cowardly. You're right."

The Los Angeles Times reported that the comment went unnoticed at ABC until a conservative talk show host in Houston hosted byDan Patrick urged listeners to complain to two of the show's advertisers, Sears and Federal Express, who subsequently dropped their ads. Several ABC affiliates temporarily dropped Maher, including what one would think a key market for the show - WJLA in Washington, D.C.


Maher's "coward" comments, misinterpreted as saying the U.S. military was "cowardly," also found its way to the ears of the White House. U.S. Press Secretary Ari Fleischer, responding to a question about the comments, said he had not read the show's transcript. He nevertheless urged Americans "to watch what they say."


"This is not a time for remarks like that," Fleischer said, adding, "There never is."


By admonishing Maher, said media critic Thompson, Fleischer tried to solidify the national consensus and control the press. "Bill Maher becomes this perfect example of what happens if you step outside that consensus," Thompson said. In at least one instance, that strategy paid off: WJLA dropped the show again after Fleischer's remarks, and hasn't brought it back since.


Again, a misquote that got caught up in someone elses political agenda.

http://thebigstory.org/ov/ov-politicallyincorrect.html





Lucylastic -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/10/2009 3:52:41 PM)

Yessssssssss, the terrible truth about canadian and UK healthcare is.........The death toll from terrible healthcare in the UK and Canada has reached pandemic proportions.
The waiting list for a doctors appointment is getting close to a terrifying 12 months, people are lining up around the block for thousands of miles for a prescription for rhoids.
In toronto the only medication has been air lifted to the CN tower to prevent people getting to necessary supplies and in the UK people are blocking the channel tunnel trying to get into an even more socialised medical system called france. The french are shooting anyone that makes it thru.




tazzygirl -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/10/2009 3:54:45 PM)

Its ok Lucy. We dont mind illegals... come on over!



Lucylastic -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/10/2009 4:00:05 PM)

LOL Tazzy:) thankyou hon..



ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/10/2009 5:24:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Yessssssssss, the terrible truth about canadian and UK healthcare is.........The death toll from terrible healthcare in the UK and Canada has reached pandemic proportions.
The waiting list for a doctors appointment is getting close to a terrifying 12 months, people are lining up around the block for thousands of miles for a prescription for rhoids.
In toronto the only medication has been air lifted to the CN tower to prevent people getting to necessary supplies and in the UK people are blocking the channel tunnel trying to get into an even more socialised medical system called france. The french are shooting anyone that makes it thru.




See? I knew it!  [sm=whoa.gif]



Thadius -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/10/2009 6:16:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

~FR~

Just a little "follow the money" comment about health care. Whenever the public option is taken off the table or the healthcare reform effort looks like it's taking a hit, the insurance company stocks go up. When the public option looks like it has a chance or healthcare reform moves forward, the insurance company stocks go down. Now what does that tell you about who Wall Street thinks is going to benefit from the lack of a public option?




It tells me, that those that put their money on the line realize that if a public option comes into being, that private insurance companies are going to go the way of the dodo. Of course this is just my opinion. I just don't see how anybody can honestly say that private corporations will ever stand a chance in head to head competition with a "well run" goverment version of it. I put in the caveat about well run, because of the current US Postal Service comparisons that could or would be brought up. Let's just face facts, if the public option is run well, and the claims about cost savings are accurate, how could the private companies compete (especially since they would also be funding the well run public option)?

I am up in the air on the whole health care debate. I think something needs to be done, I just think it needs to be a little bit of everything that has been suggested, and before we start an entirely new health care program, we NEED to fix the 2 that we have now. Know what I mean?

I wish you well,
Thadius



Anarrus -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/10/2009 6:22:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssScarlet

We can already tell that doesn't work just by looking at England and Canada, yet he keeps insisting that's the answer.

Mistress Scarlet


Please refrain from including me in your "we"

....now on to the next regularly scheduled ranting of a lunatic.[:D]



MstrssScarlet -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/10/2009 6:22:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Those who live in Canada and post here have already voiced their opinions on the efficiency of their health care.... point blank.. for them.. it works a hell of alot better than ours does here. And part of the problem with our health care isnt the care we receive.. its the denial of access! Or are you so caught up in the politics that you cant see that?

quote:

He's put us into more debt in the short time he's been in office than Bush did in eight years. He did that bailing out companies that should have been left to sink or swim.


I have posted on this as well. In the 8 years of Bush, between stimulus and Tarp, he costs the country over 1 trillion. Bush started some of the "capitalism" you are complaining about. I dont blame him, its just what had to happen to prevent our contry from financially going under. But, if you are going to complain that Obama was the cause, the one who implemented alot of that, then i have to call you on your bs.


The Canadian Prime Minister himself was on national TV talking about how the Canadian healthcare system was imploding and they had to do something soon. They don't like our system, but they can't support their own anymore either. I guess you'll deny that because I don't have a link - I just pay attention to the news. Right now they send patients to the US on a regular basis that can't be handled there. Where are they going to send them when we're in the same boat? Sounds to me like THEY are the ones being denied access. Even when my daughter had no insurance at all, she was always able to receive healthcare at one of the local hospitals if she needed it. Access is not the problem in America, cost is. There are polls being taken all the time (watch the news once in a while!) where people say they are basically happy with what we have but just want help bringing the cost down.

In your rush to condemn me (no suprise there), you misunderstood what I said. What I actually said was that letting companies sink or swim was just capitalism. I then went on to say that was what scared people - that Obama would not allow this to happen. Poor wording on my part perhaps but correct in what I said.

There ARE extensive waits in the UK and Canada for health care. I don't know who's been posting here, but perhaps they don't know any better because that's all they know. No, they don't wait 12 months for cancer surgery, but their waits most defenitely are far longer than ours.

A link to prove what they're doing with the healthcare plan now? You people LOVE your links. Kinda like Obama - keeps you from having to think on your own. Just pull up a few links, post them, and scream to all who will listen that it's true, it's true! I'm not going to post any personal figures out here, but we pay a hell of a lot less than 10% of our annual salary for our insurance. You people really believe you're going to get totally FREE healthcare? How old are you? Nothing is free, especially if the government is involved. Medicaid will be broke in approximately 8 years and we haven't even fixed THAT yet. The money for startup of this new healthcare plan alone will be one hell of a tax.

What's gone wrong with Obama's policies? Where do I start? The first thing he did when he got in office was spend a trillion dollars to bail out companies who should never have been helped, but were big supporters during his campaign. His foreign policies are a bad joke. He snubbed the Queen of England while giving her an embarrassingly inappropriate gift. Then off to the Middle East where he bowed to one of their leaders.(Again, watch your news. It was right there for all to see.) He is going around the world apologizing for things we've done. Well, I don't feel like we need to apologize for anything and I resent him acting like we do. Unemployment rates are hanging around 8-10% with no end in sight. The current administration has actually said that we need to spend our way out of this situation! When you're out of money, the last thing you do is go out and spend. It's just common sense. On the personal side, you may think it's sweet that he takes his family everywhere he goes, but I don't happen to enjoy spending my tax money for his family to tag along on Air Force One. There are extravagant parties held in the Whitehouse every week. I spoke personally to someone attending one of those parties. Her mother got a small business award, so her entire family was being flown to Washington for the party. She had been shopping all day for the evening gowns she needed for all the different parties. Wow. My tax dollars at work - again.

Obama put us a trillion dollars in debt just since he got into office. Yes, Bush spent approximately the same amount while he was in, but the economy was in far better shape and it took him EIGHT YEARS to do it. He also had a democratic congress at the time and they are the ones who hold the purse strings. They're still holding them and once we got a democratic president in office, the money just poured out like never before. Now we're printing it like monopoly money.

I don't care how Maher worded it, it boiled down to the same thing. While America was still grieving for all the innocent people killed in 9/11, he thought he could get away with a totally insensitive and inappropriate remark. If it had been Glenn Beck (since someone mentioned him) who had made the remark, the outcry would have been 3 times as loud. The media wouldn't have stopped until he was crying and begging for mercy.

Yes, Bush went into Iraq after the bombing, but he did it after he had time to cool down and look over the situation. If he had done nothing, what kind of message would that have sent? Obama is in charge now and we are still there. The difference is I doubt if he knows his enemy and he is taking so long to make decisions that he's putting our troops in far greater danger than Bush did.

It's obvious that you've already had a sip of the kool-aid, so I won't bother to pursue this any further. I'll leave you with one quote from Magaret Thatcher (Go ahead- look it up): The only bad thing about socialsim is sooner or later you run out of other people's money.

Happy Shredding,

Mistress Scarlet






SpinnerofTales -> RE: The crazies are coming out of the and they have radio to support them (10/10/2009 6:33:17 PM)

quote:

I am up in the air on the whole health care debate. I think something needs to be done, I just think it needs to be a little bit of everything that has been suggested, and before we start an entirely new health care program, we NEED to fix the 2 that we have now. Know what I mean? ORIGINAL: Thadius




I don't seem much of a way to fix the current system. The core fact is that insurance companies make more money denying coverage than they do providing it. To them, the ultimate model of profit is to have everyone pay in premiums while they are healthy and give them nothing when they are sick. The only way to give them any incentive to do other than pursue this model is to provide a competition who's goal is to provide actual health care coverage. Once that is in place, private insurance companies will have no alternative but to provide health coverage more efficiently and more satisfactorily than the public option or go out of business.

Again, following the money, the proof that the private insurance companies do not want to have to change their model from denying health care to providing health care is the amazing amount of money they have spent raising hysteria against a public option. They know very well what they are doing, and want nothing more than to keep doing it.





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