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RE: Zero Tolerance for 6 year old - 10/13/2009 5:45:57 AM

Louve00

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In all honesty, I could have been that parent too. My daughter has smuggled more Ipod, cellphones and other contraband that was confiscated from her teachers, and I had no clue she had them tucked away and hidden on her way out the door. Not to mention, when she was in first grade, her teacher wrote a note home to me about her conduct and she was so intent on me not seeing it she threw the note away. You can't blame parents or teachers for some of the decisions a child will make. You can, however, correct the child, once the infraction is found out.

The "No-tolerance" rule was put in place in strict measure after Columbine...and with good reason. But, in my opinion, common sense has to be used by adults. I saw this boy on the Today Show this morning. Its clear he meant no harm in bringing his boy scout pocket knife (or utensil knife...whatever). He eats with it at home and decided that one day to bring it to school to eat his lunch with it. It was a harmless, (meaningless to the child) action. And unless the parents shake the child down before his way out the door to school it could easily be missed. Should rules be broken? No, I don't think so. But should common sense be exercised when enforcing these rules? In the case of children, most definitely. They do stupid things in their process of learning. And really, through their mistakes is how they learn.

I also saw on the Today Show the parents decided against sending their child to a disciplinary school and opted for home-schooling.

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Post #: 41

RE: Zero Tolerance for 6 year old - 10/13/2009 5:56:23 AM

lovingpet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

I also saw on the Today Show the parents decided against sending their child to a disciplinary school and opted for home-schooling.

I applaude their decision, but I can tell you right now that, if it were me, the school system would be going to court as I filed suit for any losses I was incurring in order to take this measure. I may lose, but I would be heard loud and clear. Did they say if a parent had to step down from their job in order to do this or if the family was dealing with other struggles because of this? I just have to wonder.

lovingpet

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Post #: 42

RE: Zero Tolerance for 6 year old - 10/13/2009 6:10:08 AM

Louve00

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No, they didn't say home-schooling was a hardship on them. I can only assume it was a plausible option for them. When Meredith Vieria asked the boy if he liked being home-schooled he said it was fun in some ways and sad in other ways. He didn't elaborate. But the 6 yr old did say while he thought it was fun, he had no fears of going back to school. I doubt at 6 this will be a stigma for him. If his intent was devious, maybe.

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Post #: 43

RE: Zero Tolerance for 6 year old - 10/13/2009 6:17:27 AM

sirsholly

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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

I just think its should be the parents facing the consequences not the child. And its the child who will face the stigma now.

i agree...if it was something serious. Parents pack eating utensils in a childs lunch every day.
Correct me if i am wrong, but this item was just a knife, frok and spoon? Not one of those things that has a corkscrew, bottle opener, pen knife, and everything but the kitchen sink? It had the same things found on a childs lunch tray?

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Post #: 44

RE: Zero Tolerance for 6 year old - 10/13/2009 6:20:21 AM

barelynangel

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I agree the child won't have a clue of the stigma -- however, it will follow him especially if some parents or kids or even teachers choose to be malicious. Some parents would not be above saying --- you can't play with so and so because he brought a knife to school and then elaborate with some crazy story.

So while he may not recognize a stigma, this whole thing could in fact place a stigma on him. It will also be in his school records, another stigma.

angel

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Post #: 45

RE: Zero Tolerance for 6 year old - 10/13/2009 6:27:41 AM

Demogorgon

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I think the whole situation is ridiculous. The Columbine tragedy was committed by teenagers with some mental challenges. This is a six year old little boy. I carried a pocket knife to school back in the day and my teachers didn't think twice about it. Todays teachers and other school staff need to take a huge daily dose of common sense. Look at the student who brought a banned item into the school. Look at exactly WHY the item was brought in, and look to see if the student in question is at risk of doing something harmful with it. I don't see any harm in a student bringing in anMP3 player for listening to in gym class or at lunch. Todays schools think they have more authority over the students than the parents do. I don't have kids, but I do have nieces and nephews. My brothers and sisters and I have sat down over beers discussing that fact. The schools their kids go to have ALL told the kids it mom and dad touch you in any way, tell your teacher. It's getting to the point where parents can't even spank their kids. I don't believe in or condone child abuse, but a deserved spanking has never hurt a child.

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Post #: 46

RE: Zero Tolerance for 6 year old - 10/13/2009 6:27:50 AM

Louve00

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Well, now that is true, Angel. Going on experience from my own daughter (who's never brought a weapon to school, but plenty of other things she shouldn't have lol), it does put the child in a negative light with some teachers. Keep in mind, my child was a habitual offender of paraphernalia. But it did lead to a bad rep with some of her teachers...which led to other problems.

I think it was right of the teacher to confiscate the utensil. And think it was right to contact the parents. And think it was right to counsel the boy with his parents present and take possible disciplinary actions. But your disciplining a child for bringing a weapon to school, and to that child it was not a weapon at all. I think it got out of hand when the teachers followed protocol without a brain.

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Post #: 47

RE: Zero Tolerance for 6 year old - 10/13/2009 8:23:29 AM

pahunkboy

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yeah- dinner wear = total Osama Benn Laudin.

Mom used to scold me for eating with my hands.

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Post #: 48

RE: Zero Tolerance for 6 year old - 10/13/2009 9:37:56 AM

Termyn8or

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Fr after scan through.

Y'all are lucky I have some self control because otherwise this would become one hell of a rant.

You know what I would do ? Absolutley nothing. A steak knife is bigger than that thing (at least mine is) and yes I wll give a kid a chance to cut their own steak. If they screw it up, OK cut it for them, but if they get the hang of it, have at it. What am I going to worry that they're going to stab somebody ?

This comes about down the same road as people who think that if you have a gun you are looking for trouble. The whole thing is ridiculous. Kids used to bring shotguns and rifles to school for show and tell. Never heard of them going postal though.

I suppose it could be called liberalism, but in a totally different sense. Liberal in the sense that the kids don't have to learn anything, that we must make the world 100% safe. People won't let their kids climb trees and shit, or crawl around on the lawn. It was the greatest thing in the world to crawl around the lawn, eat some dirt, play with some bugs, all that. But no NO, we gotta have chemlawn out three times a week and the lawn is now poison, so the kid can never touch the ground. How in the hell do you teach anyone anything that way ?

Car seats are another thing. The olman's solution to that was to punch it unleashing about 400 HP and then saying "I told you to sit down". Life was more valuable when it was full of risk. People had to be careful. We are headed for a totally sterile society, where new threats will be found. The tiniest microbe is liable to kill whole countries because people will have no immune system whatsoever. With airbags and whatnot, seat belts on the swings even, will have never experienced a bruise or a skinned knee.

Someone mentioned unable to function as independent adults ? I agree 1123456778%. They will be deathly afraid of everything, and just comply with the "request" of a robber, or the government, wait that is redundant. Of all the things the government has stolen, the ability and means to become self sufficient or strike out on one's own is the greatest loss. I mourn the mere creation of public schools. I hated it, and I got reasons that I might post some other time to avoid being called a hijacker. But to suffice it to say, I had plenty of reasons. Needless to say after quitting I soon had a better job than most of my crowds' Parent's.

Dad was on the run, Mom worked and raised us. When I started working I gave her ½ my takehome pay. The rest was plenty. People thought I was rich actually. I had a car before I was even 16 (illegal), plenty of money for gas, and basically everything. Try this today. They would have a SWAT team at your house in a matter of minutes.

This brings to mind a joke, but let me take it out of humor a bit.

Say 30 years ago a kid falls out of a tree. He is all bruised up and hurting. The Parents there take him in the house, comfort him a bit, take him to the phone (no cordlesses back then) and have him Call his Ma. They come pick the kid up and everything is fine. Shit happened so what. One family invites the other to dinner. Not babysitting, but "toddler sitting" usually automatically included swatting rights. The schools did it as well. Consequences teach, and we had people who could and would fight their own battles, and make their own way through the world. They were also instilled with a work ethic, and that starts by requiring certain chores be done to earn one's allowance.

Now a kid falls out a tree and first of all there is EMS, the police and three lawyers on the scene. The bill for this is $7,000. Somebody has to pay. One sues the other because nobody wants to put it on their house insurance, which brings up another three lawyers. Then there are the child abuse/neglect cases ensuing. There goes a couple grand proving one's innocence. Still that seven grand has to come from somewhere. Then some government agency will order the tree cut down as it is a proven hazard. Wait, the EPA sues for an estopment because of environmental issues.

When it is all said and done we have neighbors who are now enemies, each spending thousands of dollars just to protect what they've worked for, not realizing that turning us each against one another is something "they" like because it inhibits our ability to fight against "them" because we have no solidarity. Not to mention all these people have to pay and pay, when CPS and the EPA start fighting it out, in the end they will have spent millions of tax dollars for nothing. For one tree. And heaven forbid any of them have any clout, lest we might see yet more legislation, like buiding codes for trees, and then they will dictate which trees are to stand and which are to be fallen.

I think it is we who have fallen really.

T

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Post #: 49

RE: Zero Tolerance for 6 year old - 10/13/2009 9:45:13 AM

Toppingfrmbottom

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Things like this used to be able to be decided on a case by case basis I believe I read, but then they decided it'd be abused to much and studies I guess it was showed more black kids would be punished than let off while white kids would be mostly scott free.

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Post #: 50

RE: Zero Tolerance for 6 year old - 10/13/2009 11:18:55 AM

pahunkboy

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When I was in grade school some bully stabbed me broke skin with a pencil.

...and as an adult- I get paper cuts that can hurt.

if there are shoe laces they can be used to hang oneself. so that is contraband. They just nailed some student locally for having vicoden in her locker. they made a stink because it was not in the original RX container. a drug dog found it.

then I heard some kid was nailed for having OTC sinus tabs on him.

welcome to the NWO.

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Post #: 51

RE: Zero Tolerance for 6 year old - 10/13/2009 12:17:03 PM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

When I was in grade school some bully stabbed me broke skin with a pencil.

...and as an adult- I get paper cuts that can hurt.

if there are shoe laces they can be used to hang oneself. so that is contraband. They just nailed some student locally for having vicoden in her locker. they made a stink because it was not in the original RX container. a drug dog found it.

then I heard some kid was nailed for having OTC sinus tabs on him.

welcome to the NWO.

PaHunk, yeah, and car keys can be used to jab someone's eyes out so all the teachers need to walk to school instead of drive.
When I was in grade school the boy scouts would bring their rifles to school to go shooting afterwards. They'd stack them right in the back of the classroom.
And this was in Woburn, Massachusetts.
Our Taxdollars are paying for those schools and teachers, I don't see why they should prevent people from excercising their 2nd amendment rights there or anywhere.
I think people need to re-learn how to say; "Mind your own fucking business!"
I'd like to see a new "movement" in this country, "Keep all government out of our fucking lives." They're supposed to be there to "serve" The People not harrass us and try to dictate to us!
Imagine hiring an employee and two weeks later they try to tell *you* what to do?

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Post #: 52

RE: Zero Tolerance for 6 year old - 10/13/2009 1:07:27 PM

pahunkboy

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From: Central Pennsylvania
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Hello Popeye.

I just pulled your file. I note that you are slouching in that computer chair. And I am making a notation that you are not wearing a seatbelt- this will be on your permanent record.

hehe

...your chair is contraband too. You know- like on Jerry Springer

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 53

RE: Zero Tolerance for 6 year old - 10/13/2009 4:58:48 PM

SteelofUtah

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Demogorgon

This is a six year old little boy. I carried a pocket knife to school

It wasn't a Pocket Knife it is part of a Meal Kit for the Boy Scouts. The Knife in question is a metal version of the Plastic Knife you get when you get a plastic ware package from a fast food restraunt.

Like I said the Safety Sissors you get can do more damage.

What gets me IRATE about this is that so far no one is trying to force the school to make a PUBLIC appology. To the Child, to the Parents, and to the Community. This is Burecratic BULLSHIT and the child is being used as a fucking Puppet. A child bringing a Buck Knife, a Skinning Knife, a Pocket Knife, or any weapon bases item would be sent to the office and had his parents called and there would be a counceling issue and then the parent and child would be explained that these things are not allowed at the school and that should it ever happen again THEN there would be Action. Then all parties would be aware of what the line was.

I was most amazed to find out that the teacher who freaked out about the knife uses a Letter opener and keeps it on her desk every day and so that you understand the letter opener is more dangerous than the knife the kid had.

Adults using children to make political points are just as disgusting as neglectful parents in my book and I would be pulling my child out of that school if he went there. Where the hell is the common sense these days?

Steel

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Post #: 54

RE: Zero Tolerance for 6 year old - 10/13/2009 5:36:16 PM

DomImus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: housesub4you
As a parent, I think the problem is with the parents of children who want to be their child's "best friend" instead of the parent. Sometimes being a parent means, your child may not like you for awhile as you enforce rules they do not like. But it's better than going to court.

Is the passage in bold not exactly what the school district is doing in this case?

I think schools in the post-Columbine era are in a no win situation. If they don't do enough and another Columbine happens they'll get crucified. If they clamp down and are perceived as going too far like in this case they get crucified. Clearly they are opting for the latter as the lesser of the two evils. While I agree with some of the other posters that a zero tolerance stance is extreme it does treat everyone exactly the same way across the board. Little Susie isn't given a pass for bringing a butter knife to school with her lunch while little Johnny gets busted for showing off his Swiss army knife that he received for his birthday.

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RE: Zero Tolerance for 6 year old - 10/13/2009 6:05:19 PM

DavanKael

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6 year old suspended and may face 45 days of REFORM SCHOOL due to bringing a cub scout utensil thing with fork, spoon, and knife, to school cause he was so excited about being a part of the cub scouts.

Insanity. All pragmatism and common sense seems to have been abandoned in the face of these sort of ludicrous rules with no flexibility or individualized consideration.
People need to begin standing up and challenging this sort of crap when it happens.
Davan

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Post #: 56

RE: Zero Tolerance for 6 year old - 10/13/2009 7:09:51 PM

Termyn8or

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Exactly Davan. The Parents should already be suing for emotional trauma on the kid. Oh wait now, what the hell did I just say ? That is a contradiction in philisophy for me, except to use their own weapons against them.

At this point I might just let the kid go to reform school, probably meet a better class of people there. Learn some real shit, and when he gets back to the hood, he's the shit. Been in.

It would be better than being in that school. What, now that the kids don't know what a gun is and they accidentally shoot someone from time to time, now they want to make it so they don't know what a knife is ? Ridiculous, what do they WANT them to stab each other by mistake ? I'm starting to think they do.

They are doing such a good job, don't you just feel all warm and cozy paying taxes ?

Here's an idea, zero tolerance for the fucking politicians and the brainwashing end of academia ? It is they who need to go to reform school, bigtime.

T

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Post #: 57

RE: Zero Tolerance for 6 year old - 10/13/2009 7:32:55 PM

AnnaOfAramis

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quote:

Correct me if i am wrong, but this item was just a knife, frok and spoon? Not one of those things that has a corkscrew, bottle opener, pen knife, and everything but the kitchen sink? It had the same things found on a childs lunch tray?

Yes, if it's the thing my son has for boy scouts, it's a small tin thing that snaps together so you can cook with it over a stove, and it comes with a little spork and roundish knife. It barely handles baked beans, but it suffices when you're roughing it. Can't imagine what damage could be done with a thing like that. Hell, I threw my clarinet case at a kid who had punched me once, maybe they should ban clarinets too.

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Post #: 58

RE: Zero Tolerance for 6 year old - 10/13/2009 7:57:48 PM

Termyn8or

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Actually I do think they should ban clarinets after some of the playing of same I've heard in school. I still have nighmares about it.

But all kidding aside, when are they going to get their head out their ass and realize that there are very few things that cannot be used as or easilty converted into weapons ? Ask any ex-con how to make a shank. You would be amazed at what people do in there. They'll make a shank, cut up a sheet and make rope and make a noose, for a snitch or something. A spoon, a fork, those dull little knives, all deadly in the proper hands. Pencils and pens, many many things in any kitchen.

OK MFs how bout this new angle just came to me - if it is zero tolerance for real it is illegal for anyone to bring a knife to school. IIRC many schools have cafeterias. What do they cut the veggies and whatever up with their toes ? Arrest those violent crooks, err cooks ! And as mentioned by another, those letter openers just have to go.

The teachers are twice the size of the students, why do they need weapons ? So bust them all. Doesn't zero mean zero anymore ? That's what they said, well round them up. Send the paddywagon and handcuffs. Make sure to Mirandize them. Lock them all up and throw away the key.

Allowing criminals on school property like that, PREPOSTEROUS !

T

(in reply to AnnaOfAramis)

Post #: 59

RE: Zero Tolerance for 6 year old - 10/13/2009 10:00:49 PM

OrionTheWolf

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There is no way parents can be positive what a child takes to school or not. They can take resonable precautions, but as kids get older they can get inventive if they want to take something they are not supposed to, I did when I was a kid. Always carried a straight razor with me where ever I went. School never found it on searches of me, so how could my parents.

What needs to be addressed is amending these zero tolerance policies, and actually making effective and resonable policies.

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

I just think its should be the parents facing the consequences not the child. And its the child who will face the stigma now.

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