RE: Feminism

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aidan -> RE: Feminism (11/5/2009 1:52:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: Wow. Sometimes it just physically hurts to be so very, very right about what motivates a person to troll on the subject of feminism. I would ask you to keep your fucking INSANE kajira fantasies to yourself, tazzygirl, but frankly I appreciate the fact that people like you and "Master Orion" are willing to post and remove the ambiguity that some people might still imagine surrounds these issues. It really is black and white. A person is either a male supremacist or they are not. People who are not male supremacists are feminists, male or female. Once again, thanks for posting. Strangely, your insane lost-in-your-sexual-fantasies drivel really does make everything abundantly clear in a way that no amount of reasoned argument or pointless debate ever will. You can ask, i assure you i will continue. How does it feel to be judged so harshly by someone who doesnt know you, hmm? You can assume you know me and my motives all you wish. Yours are plastered across this thread. I truly believe you dont hate men, but its becomming apparent that you do hate certain women. What is it that threatens you so much? The idea of people who wish to drag our civilization and species back into the fucking dark ages working so hard to seize the reins of power again? That if allowed to it would mean her, me, the people we personally care about and masses of unknown individuals would have to live under barbaric circumstances again? No, I can't imagine why she feels "threatened" at all.

tazzygirl -> RE: Feminism (11/5/2009 1:57:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucienne quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl sounds to me like she is aching to find a man strong enough to slam her to her knees and keep her there, Master Orion. despite her denials, i see a slave belly in there, waiting to burn for the right man. alas, silly Female that she is, she doesnt see the freedom in chains and spends so much time denying what she is instead of seeking out the truths within herself. Well, that's obnoxious. I realize Shakti took the gloves off a long time ago in this thread, but your comment is pretty far off point. The idea that feminism is a disease to be cured by the sexual attentions of the right man is pretty old school. Incorporating that idea into a bdsm frame strikes me as a bad idea. There are plenty of feminist subs out there. And non-feminist dommes. I think LT and Andalusite seem to get my meaning. Im sorry you didnt hear it. Sometimes you have to smack someone in the face with a form of their own insanity to get them to actually listen to themselves. The notion that every woman is cut out to be a slave is about as rediculous as the idea that every woman is cut out to be a Domme. Nope... aint so. That idea is as obnoxious as the idea that simply because im a slave means i cow tow to every human being. I have watched as she spouted off baseless, idiotic and plain malicious comments not caring who may take offence, because.. by god!! she WILL be right.. and ALL will KNOW she IS RIGHT!!! Her comments for example... quote: Yes. I was raised in this society. Every effort was made to brainwash me into being a sexual and political submissive--or a creature like you, a proactive slave that would help Massa hunt down and kill the will to power in all the others. quote: On the contrary. I am pro-feminist. The fact that I do not actively seek out ways to deprive other people of choices does not mean that I am not willing to articulate my beliefs and views when my views are specifically requested--or demonized publicly by people who are at best ignorant and at worst actively evil. That would be the difference between me and, say, an anti-feminist troll who freely admits that she offends other people deliberately at every opportunity, and works daily to make the world a stupider, more unjust, more racist and sexist place. Now, explain to me how far off point my comment was in comparison to ALL the others she has made. What my point did was make her pause, take notice... and perhaps a few of the rest of you too. Just because my nature is submissive towards a man, doesnt mean my nature is to roll over and play dead. I can be a real bitch. Smart women know there are other ways to win. Sadly, she doesnt seem to have aquired those skills.

RCdc -> RE: Feminism (11/5/2009 1:59:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: aidan The idea of people who wish to drag our civilization and species back into the fucking dark ages working so hard to seize the reins of power again? That if allowed to it would mean her, me, the people we personally care about and masses of unknown individuals would have to live under barbaric circumstances again? No, I can't imagine why she feels "threatened" at all. It's ok for you - if you are a feminist. Those who do not swing that way are going to be shot in the face or slaughtered. No. 'She' as you put it, isn't the one threatened by barbaric circumstances. Now, who is advocating dark ages? the.dark.

tazzygirl -> RE: Feminism (11/5/2009 2:00:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: aidan quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: Wow. Sometimes it just physically hurts to be so very, very right about what motivates a person to troll on the subject of feminism. I would ask you to keep your fucking INSANE kajira fantasies to yourself, tazzygirl, but frankly I appreciate the fact that people like you and "Master Orion" are willing to post and remove the ambiguity that some people might still imagine surrounds these issues. It really is black and white. A person is either a male supremacist or they are not. People who are not male supremacists are feminists, male or female. Once again, thanks for posting. Strangely, your insane lost-in-your-sexual-fantasies drivel really does make everything abundantly clear in a way that no amount of reasoned argument or pointless debate ever will. You can ask, i assure you i will continue. How does it feel to be judged so harshly by someone who doesnt know you, hmm? You can assume you know me and my motives all you wish. Yours are plastered across this thread. I truly believe you dont hate men, but its becomming apparent that you do hate certain women. What is it that threatens you so much? The idea of people who wish to drag our civilization and species back into the fucking dark ages working so hard to seize the reins of power again? That if allowed to it would mean her, me, the people we personally care about and masses of unknown individuals would have to live under barbaric circumstances again? No, I can't imagine why she feels "threatened" at all. Oh poor baby. But its perfectly ok for her to tell how many millions of submissive women that they are wrong in their beliefs, and unless they stand up and say.. FUCK YOU.. to every man... then we are dragging you back to the "dark ages". Explain how that happens? What is it about me that threatens you both so much?

RCdc -> RE: Feminism (11/5/2009 2:08:38 PM)
I am going to post again....QFT quote: ORIGINAL: GoDolphins I just thought I'd pop in here for a second to comment on this. Those of you who are feminists and who are rational and wonder why feminists often get thought of as nuts, take a close look at some of the things said on this thread. I'm not saying it's right to think like this but people will do it. ...and add (please accept my apologies for using your words GoDolphins and I do hope you do not mind) but those of you who are slaves or submissive (or those who have no desire to be identifiedas feminists) and who are rational and wonder why s-types or non feminists often get thought of as nuts, take a close look at some of the things said on this thread. I'm not saying it's right to think like this but people will do it. the.dark. (.happyhumanist.)

Elisabella -> RE: Feminism (11/5/2009 2:24:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark I am going to post again....QFT quote: ORIGINAL: GoDolphins I just thought I'd pop in here for a second to comment on this. Those of you who are feminists and who are rational and wonder why feminists often get thought of as nuts, take a close look at some of the things said on this thread. I'm not saying it's right to think like this but people will do it. ...and add (please accept my apologies for using your words GoDolphins and I do hope you do not mind) but those of you who are slaves or submissive (or those who have no desire to be identifiedas feminists) and who are rational and wonder why s-types or non feminists often get thought of as nuts, take a close look at some of the things said on this thread. I'm not saying it's right to think like this but people will do it. the.dark. (.happyhumanist.) I also urge people to look at what I've written on this thread. Not what Shakti or Aidan have accused me of writing. What I have actually written. You'll find there's a huge disparity between the two. I can say this - I haven't called anyone else nazis or cult members. I haven't threatened to shoot anyone in the face for disagreeing with me. I haven't likened cheerleading to child pornography and blamed a child's outfit for the actions of a paedophile. I haven't said the world would be better if everyone who disagreed with me was killed yet I'm the one who gets compared to a nazi? My point on here was very simple - if women want to be cheerleaders, it's because they enjoy it. Women shouldn't be prevented from engaging in a sport because some people dislike the public example it sets. Men might take more of the top positions in society but they also take more of the bottom positions. The feminist ideal that men and women should act the same (represented by Shakti's post about how there are no male cheerleaders in skimpy outfits cheering for women's football teams) is misguided at best, and the idea that anyone who makes a non-feminist choice isn't making a "real choice" is ludicrous. Seriously. That's what I've been saying. Regardless of the hyperbole of militant propagandists like Shakti, my words are there in black and white. I defy anyone to find a point where I said "all women should be submissive" or "women should submit to men" or "women are inferior to men" or anything even remotely like it. Because I didn't. And you're doing yourself a disservice if you accept other people's blatant lies when the source material is right in front of you.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Feminism (11/5/2009 2:55:14 PM)
Shakti, why don't you go back and try reading some of my posts and questions, before you started just being nasty. You have made claims that you cannot support, and then when asked about them, you back pedal and use ad hominem. This was pointed out back in the first few pages, and you continue to do it now. If it will make it easier to find one of my posts where I state some of my beliefs, try do a search on the word "meritocracy". You say you are for choice, but you wish to shape society so that the choices you do not like will be looked down upon. Just as you look down upon them. Your misandry is a lot more aparent, and I can pull examples from your posts, than any misoginy you claim from those that oppose your views. Dodge the questions, use ad hominem, and continue with personal insults, it shows how much validity your personal ideology has. There are many feminist on this site, and I know offline, that I have a huge amount of respect for. I do not believe myself superior to females, nor that males in general are superior to females. I do know I am superior to you, and that is not because you are female, but because of how you are as a person.

GYPSYMAMBO -> RE: Feminism (11/5/2009 3:31:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GYPSYMAMBO quote: ORIGINAL: SomethingCatchy My belief in feminism is equality, How do you view feminism? How does feminism affect your D/s and 'vanilla' relationships? Feminism is a political,cultural or economic movement aimed at establishing more rights or legal protection for women. If can involce social theory and philosophies that address gender differences or gender specific rights. FEMINIST theory emerged from the movements and can be found in a variety of disciplines such as feminist geography..her-story and literature. There are also types of feminists such as eco feminists..radical feminists..etc First Wave feminism was a period from early 19th to early 20th cent..and focused on PROMOTION OF PROPERTY RIGHTS and OPPOSITION TO CHATTEL MARRIAGE Near the end of the 19th it focused on gaining POLITICAL POWER eg) women in Quebec did not vote until the 1950's in CA There were campaigns for sexual,reproductive and economics rights. SECOND WAVE..early 60's to 90's.. This was a continuation of the earlier phase involving suffragettes 2nd wave was largely concerned with ISSUES OF EQUALITY such as ending discrimination THIS 2nd wave saw womens cultural and political inequalities as linked.It encouraged women to understand PERSONAL ASPECTS OF THEIR LIVES as deeply polarized and reflecting sexist power structures. 2nd wave felt that the 1st wave wanted women to aspire to be LIKE men and that this idea must be set aside. 2nd wavers felt that women were oppressed and were pressed to find meaning in their lives through husbands and children The term WOMENS LIB came about in 2nd wave THIRD WAVE..began in the early 1990's as a precieved response to the FAILURES of the 2nd wave and as a response to backlash against many initutives of teh 2nd. 3rd wavers feel there has been OVER EMPHASIS on the experiences of upper middle class white women within the movement and this does not address ALL WOMEN A structuralist interpretation of gender and sexuality is central to 3rd wave.Micro- politics figure highly in 3rd wave as a new paradigm to challenge 2nd wave as to what is good or not good for females. Personally I was active in 2nd wave from 1967+ and am in the 3rd.. I believe 2nd wave did a great diservice to MEN AND WOMEN by NOT TAKING MEN ALONG WITH US.. *They became the enemy...and rather than strive for partnership and uniqueness of gender..or emphasis on the individual regardless of sex, we seperated the sexes even further* I no longer wish to be part of the war of the sexes I do not hesitate to call out and be a voice for equality..and the abused..homeless..violated..ill..or oppression and suppression of any human. or animal or tree. At half a century I am learning to be a HUMANIST I wish to go forward with a qualified optimism about the capacity of people with the ultimate idea/goal of HUMAN FLOURISHING. Within that there may be a woman going to a football game..playing it(I DID)...a man wearing a dress..a woman choosing to surrender to a man..a man serving a woman.. a woman with 2 husbands..access to business funds for all..equal eduation..literary freedoms....... HUMAN DIGNITY..capabilities..rights.. gender eqaulity..social jsutice and seperation of church and state.. rights to have what you want on your hot dog..roles built/defined in a relationship as a couple wishes( not society)/ a right to eat and have a home..and much more... may the blessings be GM

GYPSYMAMBO -> RE: Feminism (11/5/2009 3:37:42 PM)
check www.partnershipway.org looking at msitakes...and successes of matri-focal and patriarchal society TO CREATE A NEW WAY ... GM

SimplyIsaac -> RE: Feminism (11/5/2009 3:50:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyIsaac Well, based on experience in these forums, the description does seem to fit with you on more than one occasion. Shakti's words in this forum have always been well articulated and food for thought. Yours, however, leave much to be desired here. I'm sorry but... have you read this thread? I'm going to indulge my librarian fetish here and do a bit of cataloguing. The best part is the fact that the self-identified misogynist on this thread hasn't insulted me at all. Might that be because he is in line with your argument? [8\|]

SimplyIsaac -> RE: Feminism (11/5/2009 3:55:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GYPSYMAMBOI no longer wish to be part of the war of the sexes. An admirable vision, but we're trapped into it as a species. Until humans evolve into reproducing through parthenogenesis there's always going to be a war between the sexes, to one degree or another.

tazzygirl -> RE: Feminism (11/5/2009 3:59:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyIsaac Well, based on experience in these forums, the description does seem to fit with you on more than one occasion. Shakti's words in this forum have always been well articulated and food for thought. Yours, however, leave much to be desired here. Offering to kill someone is your example of articulation and food for thought? What food? How it can be done?

fryingpan -> RE: Feminism (11/5/2009 4:10:06 PM)
quote: ShaktiSama: There seems to be a commonality here that people with a female submissive viewpoint feel as if they are not accepted by "feminists". But have any of these women considered the fact that their submissive sexuality is also not accepted by the MAJORITY of ALL vanilla people, male and female? That sounds very true to me and very well put. This might be the reason they are so aggressive in this thread. They probably feel more supported here. quote: ShaktiSama: I have noticed myself that heterosexual vanilla feminists are often able to cope better with vanilla lesbianism than they are with bdsm identity of EITHER type--believe me, vanilla women who are feminists are just as likely to be horrified and turned off by female dominance as they are by female submission! It's BDSM that shocks and appalls them, not just the role you play. Very well observed. quote: ShaktiSama: Reforming the movement to make it more sexually grown up and tolerant of bdsm identity, however, is NOT going to be achieved by demonizing all feminism and working against women's rights in the workplace, in politics, and in society. I got to say that this is very sensible. Feminism can't be dismissed as something that would of played its role and has become irrelevant, since it still has a lot of work to do when considering the whole wide world we all live in, and not only the few rich or evolved countries where it has had the time to play an effective role. In these countries, improving the tolerance of the vanilla society toward sexual freedom is a different question. Why should it be linked to Feminism? It's not because women have gained a more equal footing with men that this should have made them more open-minded or tolerant. quote: ShaktiSama: Female supremacists who try to argue that their sexual fantasies should be imposed on the entire human race also set my teeth on edge. I like dominating men. I do not like the idea that if I took a leadership role in a political or social sphere, however, that I would automatically be unjust or trample someone's rights just because he happened to be male and I happen to be female. Not everyone who has power to affect other people's lives would use that power to harm and enslave them. I'm not so sure female supremacists exist as a definable group with a manifesto and a political agenda. Some female supremacists proclaim to be man-hating, or to consider all men as lower than animals. But others think of female supremacy as a way of recognising exceptional or unique qualities to the female gender.

GoDolphins -> RE: Feminism (11/5/2009 4:19:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark I am going to post again....QFT quote: ORIGINAL: GoDolphins I just thought I'd pop in here for a second to comment on this. Those of you who are feminists and who are rational and wonder why feminists often get thought of as nuts, take a close look at some of the things said on this thread. I'm not saying it's right to think like this but people will do it. ...and add (please accept my apologies for using your words GoDolphins and I do hope you do not mind) but those of you who are slaves or submissive (or those who have no desire to be identifiedas feminists) and who are rational and wonder why s-types or non feminists often get thought of as nuts, take a close look at some of the things said on this thread. I'm not saying it's right to think like this but people will do it. the.dark. (.happyhumanist.) Well, I will say this much. I should say that I haven't agreed with everything the non-feminists or anti-feminists have said either. But I haven't seen them go so far as to say anyone deserves to be killed for their beliefs. There have been a few things some have said that were out of line but I don't think anything was quite that bad. I don't really care that people have different beliefs, but it's hard to even get around to looking at what people here have read when you see some of the insults they've come up with. No it doesn't bother me the way you used my words here. I should say this here. I have been critical of feminists on this thread, perhaps a bit too critical. I don't think all feminists are nuts. I've been around some of them on different web sites and some are good people. But there are too many feminists who are exactly like what I described about 25 pages or so ago, who think if you disagree with them you are a terrible person bent on making women subhuman, even if you believe in equal rights. This thread has proven that they are not a myth.

ShaktiSama -> RE: Feminism (11/5/2009 5:24:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark Fighting for freedom, which you have changed it to, is not the same as advocating genocide, which was your initial response. Dictators and partisans used the same 'excuse' to kill of many groups. And it is abhorant. the.dark. I haven't "changed" anything. These male supremacist men and women are fighting and working every day to make me less free. Fighting back against them verbally OR physically is not "genocide", any more than my Jewish grandfather fighting in World War II after his country was attacked and most everyone related to him in Euope was reduced to ashes was "genocide". As I have pointed out before, FEMINISTS died in those concentration camps. You know who put them there? Women like Elisabella. No, I am not kidding, no I am not making a false comparison. Read her posts, read her blog, and then compare them line by line with the things written by female Nazi party members. The resemblance is absolutely uncanny and not at all accidental. She is a racist, a sexist of the male supremacist stripe, and a fascist. Period. There is no doubt on the subject. The fact that someone who claims to be a humanist actually thinks it's ok for some Gorean whore to threaten me with non-consensual slavery and sexual violence, so that I will learn to hate my freedom and be a "proper woman"? Makes me sick. Anyone who offers me that kind of violence in real life will die horribly. I am not ashamed to say so, in public or in private. If you think that their views are "civilized" and acceptable and mine are not--you need to recognize that a humanist is NOT what you are.

tazzygirl -> RE: Feminism (11/5/2009 5:28:14 PM)
Gorean whore? Wow, lady, you are nuts! I said you wanted it... never would i care if some man tried. And, frankly, you couldnt handle it if a man did. Elisabella is not a nazi tossing your ass into a prison. And i could not more threaten you than i could the man in the moon. I do believe you read what you wish too, twist and manipulate things into making you look like the victim (which isnt feministic at all) then turn around and whine.. look at what they are saying! Honey, you need help.. and soon.

ShaktiSama -> RE: Feminism (11/5/2009 5:29:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fryingpan I'm not so sure female supremacists exist as a definable group with a manifesto and a political agenda. Well, they certainly exist as an identifiable group in BDSM. I will admit that I am not a female supremacist myself, and have not been to any meetings, so I would not know if they have a political agenda. Within the context of the BDSM community, I have always argued that they have as much right to their fantasies and lifestyle as any other BDSM orientation, and I believe they should be treated with courtesy and respect as much as possible. However, I do NOT like it when they spout rhetoric about innate male inferiority and how the world would be a better place if all men were unfree, if they were second-class citizens, etc.. For obvious reasons.

ShaktiSama -> RE: Feminism (11/5/2009 5:32:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Gorean whore? Wow, lady, you are nuts! Nope. That would be you. And you're right, you're not a whore. You give it up for free. quote: I said you wanted it... never would i care if some man tried. And, frankly, you couldnt handle it if a man did. Too late, sugar. More than one man has physically assaulted me in the course of my life. I am still standing. They were not, by the time I was through. I could likely take apart any man you have ever known in far less time than it has taken me to type this post. Keep kidding yourself that your desires and the weaknessese that accompany them are universal to all women, though. I'm sure it really takes the edge off that whole "taking responsibility for the fact that I'm a kinky weird bitch" shame that otherwise makes it impossible for you to live.

ShaktiSama -> RE: Feminism (11/5/2009 5:36:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Oh poor baby. But its perfectly ok for her to tell how many millions of submissive women that they are wrong in their beliefs, and unless they stand up and say.. FUCK YOU.. to every man... then we are dragging you back to the "dark ages". I've never said any such thing, and in fact have affirmed the choices of submissive women in their personal lives MANY MANY TIMES in this thread. But please, keep lying to yourself and others. Especially when the posts are still there for everyone to read. I especially like the one where you said I should be assaulted and essentially raped systematically for the rest of my life. That was a real charmer. And people wonder why I think you all should die?

tazzygirl -> RE: Feminism (11/5/2009 5:37:43 PM)
And here we see a woman into sheer meltdown. And this is the woman many see as articulate... someone who reduces every discussion to name calling and belittlement of those she "claims" to be trying to keep from being oppressed. How funny!

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