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RE: You pay your insurance an it still don't matter - 10/16/2009 9:00:33 PM

Sanity

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They're going to be needing those death panels if they're really going to cut hundreds of billions from Medicare, like tazzy says.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DrkJourney

I don't know much about all this health care bill talk, but they seem to always stress how there will be "death panels"....big deal, the insurance company has had this job for years. They love playing God. You can pay out the a** but if they don't want to cover you when something is wrong, apparently they don't have to, I don't see anyone making them.

At least if they had the balls to just say, "no" I could run with that, but what frustrates me is the lame excuses they give.

Like the lady who passed out at work, ambulance was called, turned out she had a tumor or something in her brain. She was in a coma for days. The insurance company said they would not cover her because it was too expensive, and there were less expensive ways to handle it and they actually told her that she should've shopped around before she "let" any one treat her.

I've been to the emergency room and the amount they paid, they might as well have just been added to my bill....it was almost a thousand dollars, and theirs wasn't even three hundred. You wonder sometimes why you even have insurance

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RE: You pay your insurance an it still don't matter - 10/16/2009 9:06:06 PM

DrkJourney

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as I said, we already got 'em....don't see the difference

I'm not on anyone's side, politically....I don't put much stock in government, no matter who's in office, they all get in there and do about the same things to me.

I just think it's funny that point they are always complaining about when it's been going on for years, just by insurance companies, and who says they're not already run by the government

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RE: You pay your insurance an it still don't matter - 10/16/2009 9:06:20 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

You are implying that government insurance will be far superior to private insurance, and I'm not convinced. I truly believe that you are looking at Obamacare through some very rosy spectacles.

Right now we're luring physicians from other countries because we pay them so well here, but under Obamacare budget restrictions that's sure to change. Those greedy capitalist pig doctors will almost certainly fall under "the evil eye" (or the bewitching eye) of Obama's pay Czar. We already have severe nursing shortages here... so there is a strong chance that you will be severely disappointed if you ever get what you're asking for.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

We pay for it by lowering the cost of health care. Access to preventative care lowers hospital costs, medication costs, the need for surgeries, specialized care, ect.

Nursing shortages. Ahem. Wrong direction. There is no "actual" nursing shortage. There is a shortage of nurses who are willing to work. Long hours, low pay for the work required of us, yeah, nurses are always in demand. Another reason for nursing shortages are the shortages of nurses willing to do bedside nursing. lol... Physicians have alot to do with that. There isnt a nurse around that doesnt have a few horror stories under her belt about the bedside... and desk side.. manner of Dr' she/he had to work with.

From the educational end... sorry.. not everyone is cut out to be a nurse. Nursing schools are not like any other field, with the exception of other medical schools. You start with a certain number of students. Thats it. As they progress, some fail out, some drop out, some drop back. My class, which was small, started out with 44. We graduated 11, 100% passing on state boards... which is another area that the nursing field loses nurses too... no pass... no practice.

Burn out is high, too many patients to a single nurse will do it quickly.

The shortage is due to many reasons.. not just one.

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RE: You pay your insurance an it still don't matter - 10/16/2009 9:10:22 PM

Sanity

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Under government care not every treatment will be covered either. Government care won't be perfect care, and it won't be free. Government programs are always far more expensive than the studies forecast, and their history, the United States government's history of implementing huge programs like this one isn't good.

And under the proposal that tazzy posted, its going to be paid for by slashing Medicare and taxing private plans up to 40%.

40%!!!

Think about that. If they tax something 40% those plans will dry up and blow away and that funding will disappear, almost as if they're planning it that way. The funding isn't going to be there. If they slash Medicare will treatment for the elderly go away or will it just be shifted? if treatment goes away that's terrible, and if its just shifted to another program it's not truly savings, its a game of smoke-and-mirrors.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 10/16/2009 9:12:44 PM >

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RE: You pay your insurance an it still don't matter - 10/16/2009 9:17:25 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Under government care not every treatment will be covered either. Government care won't be perfect care, and it won't be free. Government programs are always far more expensive than the studies forecast, and their history, the United States government's history of implementing huge programs like this one isn't good.

And under the proposal that tazzy posted, its going to be paid for by slashing Medicare and taxing private plans up to 40%.

40%!!!

Think about that. If they tax something 40% those plans will dry up and blow away and that funding will disappear, almost as if they're planning it that way. The funding isn't going to be there. If they slash Medicare will treatment for the elderly go away or will it just be shifted? if treatment goes away that's terrible, and if its just shifted to another program it's not truly savings, its a game of smoke-and-mirrors.

Medicare doesnt cover ONLY the elderly.

Arent you happy with the Republican way of dealing with Obama's plan? Hmm?

These are the changes you guys insisted on... and yet you are still complaining.

But, lets get it accurate, from the source YOU provided, which seems to contradict itself often.

quote:

The bill would cost $829 billion over the next decade, but would more than offset that cost by slicing hundreds of billions from government health programs such as Medicare and by imposing a 40 percent excise tax on high-cost insurance policies starting in 2013.

Medicare isnt the only program. Are you no longer worried that your health care plan will be affected if you are complaining about a 40% tax on something you insist wont be around then?

~edited to add

Before age 65, you are eligible for free Medicare hospital insurance if:

You have been entitled to Social Security disability benefits for 24 months; or
You receive a disability pension from the railroad retirement board and meet certain conditions; or
If you receive Social Security disability benefits because you have Lou Gehrig’s disease (amyotrophic lateral sclerosis); or
You worked long enough in a government job where Medicare taxes were paid and you meet the requirements of the Social Security disability program; or
You are the child or widow(er) age 50 or older, including a divorced widow(er), of someone who
has worked long enough in a government job where Medicare taxes were paid and you meet the requirements of the Social Security disability program.
You have permanent kidney failure and you receive maintenance dialysis or a kidney transplant and:

You are eligible for or receive monthly benefits under Social Security or the railroad retirement system; or
You have worked long enough in a Medicare-covered government job; or
You are the child or spouse (including a divorced spouse) of a worker (living or deceased) who has worked long enough under Social Security or in a Medicare-covered government job.
http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/10043.html#part3

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 10/16/2009 9:19:55 PM >

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RE: You pay your insurance an it still don't matter - 10/16/2009 9:22:12 PM

Sanity

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So there's a shortage of nurses, but it's not "actual"...

That's funny.

To the point though, I predict that there will be a similar shortage of doctors (thats perhaps not actual

) after a generation under Obamacare.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Nursing shortages. Ahem. Wrong direction. There is no "actual" nursing shortage. There is a shortage of nurses who are willing to work. Long hours, low pay for the work required of us, yeah, nurses are always in demand. Another reason for nursing shortages are the shortages of nurses willing to do bedside nursing. lol... Physicians have alot to do with that. There isnt a nurse around that doesnt have a few horror stories under her belt about the bedside... and desk side.. manner of Dr' she/he had to work with.

From the educational end... sorry.. not everyone is cut out to be a nurse. Nursing schools are not like any other field, with the exception of other medical schools. You start with a certain number of students. Thats it. As they progress, some fail out, some drop out, some drop back. My class, which was small, started out with 44. We graduated 11, 100% passing on state boards... which is another area that the nursing field loses nurses too... no pass... no practice.

Burn out is high, too many patients to a single nurse will do it quickly.

The shortage is due to many reasons.. not just one.

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RE: You pay your insurance an it still don't matter - 10/16/2009 9:24:40 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

So there's a shortage of nurses, but it's not "actual"...

That's funny.

To the point though, I predict that there will be a similar shortage of doctors (thats perhaps not actual ) after a generation under Obamacare.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Nursing shortages. Ahem. Wrong direction. There is no "actual" nursing shortage. There is a shortage of nurses who are willing to work. Long hours, low pay for the work required of us, yeah, nurses are always in demand. Another reason for nursing shortages are the shortages of nurses willing to do bedside nursing. lol... Physicians have alot to do with that. There isnt a nurse around that doesnt have a few horror stories under her belt about the bedside... and desk side.. manner of Dr' she/he had to work with.

From the educational end... sorry.. not everyone is cut out to be a nurse. Nursing schools are not like any other field, with the exception of other medical schools. You start with a certain number of students. Thats it. As they progress, some fail out, some drop out, some drop back. My class, which was small, started out with 44. We graduated 11, 100% passing on state boards... which is another area that the nursing field loses nurses too... no pass... no practice.

Burn out is high, too many patients to a single nurse will do it quickly.

The shortage is due to many reasons.. not just one.

You can predict a shortage of Dr's as well as anyone else. I am a nurse. I know why there are shortages. I also know there are many nurses out there with their licenses listed as "inactive". Just as many are filling administrative positions and are leaving bedside nursing, which is what the "shortage" is all about.

Do a search, its not that difficult to find out why.

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RE: You pay your insurance an it still don't matter - 10/16/2009 9:31:41 PM

Sanity

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Back to the original question though, do you really believe that we can pay to cover everyone in the United States by slashing Medicare and taxing high end plans to the point they disappear?

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RE: You pay your insurance an it still don't matter - 10/16/2009 9:40:53 PM

BeingChewsie

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It makes sense that they will and frankly they should. They put a heavier burden on the health care system.

My Master can't wait to cancel the insurance coverage either, it has him salivating over the balance sheets. He thought it was very nice of you to give your employees a raise out of it though.

On this issue of fines:

I can't imagine a good size corporation( or for that matter even a small corporation) being worried about a "fine or penalty" from the government on this one. It will be less than what most of us contribute now for employee health benefits. It just becomes a cost of doing business and a write off as an expense to the corporation anyway. The government is great about taking partial payments spread out over forever and many companies carry insurance for those types of events. Business can just pass those costs on to consumers and employees. One way or another businesses will be just fine when they drop health insurance on their employees. No matter how you slice it, it becomes a net gain for business, especially big business, they are dancing in their boardrooms.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Well now, I guess it may not be politically correct to ostracize fat people, but apparently in the current version of the health care Bill, it will be okay to charge them more. Hell, remember the thread about the overweight baby? I guess Congress did and thought it was a good idea to use it to get the insurance companies to support the Bill.

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RE: You pay your insurance an it still don't matter - 10/16/2009 9:43:02 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Back to the original question though, do you really believe that we can pay to cover everyone in the United States by slashing Medicare and taxing high end plans to the point they disappear?

How about a different question?

What is the reason you believe that the health insurance industry is providing a superior level of care over what would be available through a government plan?

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RE: You pay your insurance an it still don't matter - 10/16/2009 9:55:08 PM

BeingChewsie

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We already have a severe shortage of primary care providers and specialists are not so plentiful either here and it is going to get worse if they try and cut pay for providers. I don't think they will, I think you will see those provisions dropped from the final bill or cut afterwords. They can't take a chance that there be any rationing or too long of a wait time to be seen by a health care provider.

The nursing situation is complicated, we had a shortage which seems to have resolved itself temporarily because so many nurses went back to work at the bed side and hospitals feeling the crunch have just stopped or severely decreased hiring due to the economy. New grads all over the US can't get hired, it is a HUGE problem in itself, nursing schools are pumping out nurses and guess what? There are very few jobs for them right now. As the economy improves things will pick back up and most experts predict another nursing shortage by 2015 as the economy improved and nurses leave the bedside again.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

You can predict a shortage of Dr's as well as anyone else. I am a nurse. I know why there are shortages. I also know there are many nurses out there with their licenses listed as "inactive". Just as many are filling administrative positions and are leaving bedside nursing, which is what the "shortage" is all about.

Do a search, its not that difficult to find out why.

< Message edited by BeingChewsie -- 10/16/2009 10:06:58 PM >

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RE: You pay your insurance an it still don't matter - 10/16/2009 9:57:22 PM

Sanity

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You'd like to forget servantforuse's question?

Yeah, I thought so. It's a basic, simple, straightforward question, but one that's not easily answered.

Regarding the question you're throwing up as a means of deflection, I think President Obama answered it best when he said "UPS and FedEx are doing just fine. It's the Post Office that's always having problems."

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RE: You pay your insurance an it still don't matter - 10/16/2009 10:08:54 PM

BeingChewsie

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I think what she meant is a shortage of RN's working in the field of nursing. There are plenty of licensed nurses out there, just not working in the field or at the bedside.

I'd wager you are also spot on the fact that something very similar will happens to health care providers if there is a big cut to their incomes. The beautiful thing about a medical degree or doctorate in any field really is it gives you so many options, providers will be able to leave practice and still make a mint as consultants, professors, authors and so on and so forth.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

So there's a shortage of nurses, but it's not "actual"...

That's funny.

To the point though, I predict that there will be a similar shortage of doctors (thats perhaps not actual ) after a generation under Obamacare.

< Message edited by BeingChewsie -- 10/16/2009 10:09:30 PM >

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RE: You pay your insurance an it still don't matter - 10/16/2009 10:38:41 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

You'd like to forget servantforuse's question?

Yeah, I thought so. It's a basic, simple, straightforward question, but one that's not easily answered.

I addressed the question with a link, and while my link unfortunately did not work, Tazzy provided the identical information, which you never made a response to.

And edited to add, just for precision:

The original question was how would government pay for it.

The CBO figures showed an actual reduction of debt if health reform legislation was enacted.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 10/16/2009 10:45:06 PM >

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RE: You pay your insurance an it still don't matter - 10/17/2009 6:22:31 AM

servantforuse

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How long do you think a private insurance company can stay in business when they are being taxed at a rate of 40% ? When they are gone there will be no one left to tax. Then who will pay ?

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RE: You pay your insurance an it still don't matter - 10/17/2009 7:25:55 AM

Sanity

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And what will happen to the Medicare patients when Obama slashes their funding.

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

How long do you think a private insurance company can stay in business when they are being taxed at a rate of 40% ? When they are gone there will be no one left to tax. Then who will pay ?

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RE: You pay your insurance an it still don't matter - 10/17/2009 8:31:14 AM

tazzygirl

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Federal Legislative Activities on Medicare

Medicare physician payment reform
On January 1, 2010, physicians face a minimum across-the-board cut of 21% in Medicare payments. This 21% cut will grow to about 40% in cumulative cuts by 2016 unless Congress acts soon to replace the outdated payment update formula and permanently reform Medicare’s physician payment system.
Persistent, looming cuts and low payments reduce access to care and keep physicians from participating in quality initiatives and purchasing health information technology. Medicare payments should cover the increasing cost of providing care so that seniors can be assured of continued access to physician care.
Permanent reform of the archaic Medicare physician payment system is among the core principles the AMA is urging Congress to include as part of comprehensive health system reform this year.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/advocacy/current-topics-advocacy/practice-management/medicare-physician-payment-reform-regulatory-relief/federal-legislative-activities-medicare.shtml

Member Connect® Survey: Physicians’ reactions to the Medicare physician payment cuts
Highlights
Beginning July 1, 2008, the government will cut Medicare payments to physicians by 10.6 percent. With forecast cuts every year for almost a decade, physician payment rates will be slashed by about 40 percent, while practice costs are expected to increase by 20 percent.
This survey of 8,955 physicians, conducted in 2007, examines how the cuts will affect physician practices—and seniors’ access to physician care. Based on our survey findings, the American Medical Association (AMA) is deeply concerned that without congressional action, seniors will face reduced access to care.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/399/mc_survey.pdf

Seems to me these cuts have been in the works all along. Without health care reform... with health care reform... Medicare is losing 40%.

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RE: You pay your insurance an it still don't matter - 10/17/2009 10:06:00 AM

BeingChewsie

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The middle class will pay, they always do. This an old horse with a new blanket, nothing more but a continuation of the transfer of wealth from the middle class to the business and investor class with a pretty new shiny bow on it. The health insurance industry is just the sacrificial lamb in the process of making other industries billions in increased profits.

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

How long do you think a private insurance company can stay in business when they are being taxed at a rate of 40% ? When they are gone there will be no one left to tax. Then who will pay ?

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RE: You pay your insurance an it still don't matter - 10/17/2009 10:39:22 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

How long do you think a private insurance company can stay in business when they are being taxed at a rate of 40% ? When they are gone there will be no one left to tax. Then who will pay ?

The 40% tax is on individual policies that provide benefits above the normal for those who can afford it.

It is not a tax on the insurance companies' profits.

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RE: You pay your insurance an it still don't matter - 10/17/2009 10:42:35 AM

tazzygirl

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LOL.. the ones that pay for boob jobs?

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