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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/19/2009 10:42:38 PM   
sirsholly


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Status: offline 		http://www.biblicalworldview21.org/Medicine/Summary_Principles_Medicine.asp

i didn't really read it

(it looked like a bunch of hooey)


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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/20/2009 5:25:29 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly
Crazy? Perhaps not, but certainly not using any common sense.

After decades of brainwashing common sense is less than common.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly
And I would point out that blaming Sunday services for the actions of these idiots is taking this a little far. Many of us have attended services since childhood.

I'm sure that blaming the Church services you attended would be taking it more than a little far. Keep in mind that not all forms of Christianity are the same. To borrow from another thread these kids aren't mentally ill, their crazy comes directly from the faith they are being raised in: http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-343325

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly
And many of those who believe exclusively in faith healing never saw the inside of a church as children.

Churches certainly have other ways of getting their hooks into people but getting to them while they are young and impressionable is one of the big ones.

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/20/2009 5:41:53 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

You know them no better than I do...or is this not true? To me their actions are not that of normal adjusted people. The vast vast vast vast vast majority...In fact all but a very very very few of the religious are normal well-adjusted people. The few that are not would be nuts even if there were no religion or God.

I believe you are wrong to blame all religions for their abhorrent actions. In fact doing so is the same as saying because one African American raped a woman…all African Americans are rapists.

Butch



Oooookaaaay............... if you say so.



Jehovah's Witnesses: Teachings on blood transfusions

Jehovah's Witness' beliefs and teachings about blood: The Jehovah's Witnesses urges its members to refuse to accept blood transfusions and to not allow them to be given to their children. This is primarily based upon four passages in the Bible which they interpret as prohibiting the consuming of blood:
  • Genesis 9:4 "But flesh (meat) with...blood...ye shall not eat"
  • Leviticus 17:12-14 "...No soul of you shall eat blood...whosoever eateth it shall be cut off"
  • Acts 15:29 "That ye abstain...from blood..."
  • Acts 21:25 "...Gentiles...keep themselves from things offered to idols and from blood..."

The faith group once interpreted "eating" of blood in its most general form to include accepting "transfusion of whole blood, packed [red blood cells] RBCs, and plasma, as well as [white blood cells] WBC and platelet administration."

L.C. Cotton, associate director of Jehovah's Witnesses hospital information services, said:
"We feel that the Bible clearly indicates that blood is sacred and it is not to be used for human consumption. Though it doesn't discuss it in medical terms, Jehovah's Witnesses feel that would preclude the acceptance of it in a blood transfusion." 
All or essentially all other Christian and Jewish faith groups interpret these same passages as referring to dietary laws; i.e. to the actual eating of meat containing blood.

Witnesses are also urged to "discontinue their chemotherapy treatments when platelet transfusions are needed." 

Because Witnesses believe that any blood that leaves the body must be destroyed, they do not approve of an individual storing his own blood for a later auto-transfusion.  J.R. Brown, a spokesperson for the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, said: "Blood removed from an individual is to be poured out or discarded."

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/20/2009 8:04:30 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		So they are the vast majority then? Funny I thought there were a lot more of them knocking on my door lately. And yes I do think someone who would deny his or her child a blood transfusion or chemotherapy is unstable…. don’t you?

There are many cults outside of religion that attract these kinds of people as well. I also agree that children are often victims of these people in the same way that the abused tend to abuse when they become adults. As I’ve said many times before it is the human imperfect mind that warps the words of God to suite its needs.

Have you ever looked in retrospect at your inability to see the good in religion? Perhaps you are no different then some of the people you rant against…with just a different mindset.

Butch


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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/20/2009 9:32:23 AM   
mcbride


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty

I am not aware of any organized group of atheists ever persecuting Christians, or any other religious group. The religious persecution I am aware of has come at the hands of another religious group.


   I'll try to answer as briefly as possible.

   The French Revolution was explicitly atheist. "A strident unbelief became a real political factor in public life, " says Cambridge University, with a certain amount of understatement. From 16,000 to 40,000 were executed during the Reign of Terror. Churches were burned, thousands of priests murdered, and the law passed 21 October 1793 made "all suspected priests and all persons who harbored them liable to death on sight."  To rid France of religion, the governing Convention introduced the Cult of Reason, having already renumbered the calendar to make it "Year One".

   There was much more to come. When the western département of Vendée failed to support the Convention, an army was ordered to exterminate every man, woman, and child in the area, because they were, in the words on the Convention, "superstitious savages". Between 117,000 and 250,000 people were massacred. There were, documented, by the attackers, as one writer describes, "mass executions by grapeshot fired from cannons, specially constructed boats towed out to the middle of the Loire and then sunk, the mass bayoneting of men, women and children, [and] the smashing of babies' heads against walls."

   All Communist states are explicitly, fundamentally atheist, based on Marx's belief.  In the first year of the Russian revolution, the state seized all church property, and in the early 1920s, 28 Russian Orthodox bishops and more than 1,200 priests were murdered. The state set up a number of organizations, like the League of the Militant Godless to actively persecute believers.

  Of the roughly 50 million killed by Mao following China's 1949 revolution, it's not clear how many were killed because they were believers (there are lots of varying numbers on line), but the same pattern played out, with all religious activity suppressed and property seized.  Religious belief is still considered incompatible with Party membership.

  Under the Khmer Rouge, all religions were "absolutely forbidden". Buddist, Christian and Muslim places of worship were destroyed, and half of Cambodia's Christians were murdered.

  You might also look up Mexico, where priests and other Catholics were murdered en masse, mostly during the 1930s,  North Korea, and Cuba.  For an American version, try the Know Nothing party, a mixture of Protestants and atheists who violently attacked immigrant Catholics, and the "Forty-Eighters".

  I hope that helps to answer your question.

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/20/2009 9:36:04 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

After decades of brainwashing common sense is less than common.
agree...but there are those who were never indoctrinated as children, just join as adults for whatever reason they might have.

The issue i have with this taken back to childhood brainwashing is in a sense the parents can easily be negated of total responsibility for their actions. The "church" is blamed rather than those truly responsible.


< Message edited by sirsholly -- 10/20/2009 9:39:03 AM >

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/20/2009 9:54:59 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I believe you are wrong to blame all religions for their abhorrent actions. In fact doing so is the same as saying because one African American raped a woman…all African Americans are rapists.


Please stop lying about my position.

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/20/2009 10:01:26 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

The "church" is blamed rather than those truly responsible.


Without "church" 'Dogma', stipulated subject to interpretation either 'radically', 'conservatively' or 'liberally', where else would those "truly responsible" get their ideas?

That holds for any 'church'; religious or philosophical. PETA doesn't have in their bi-laws blowing up scientific research centers, yet some followers interpret they are following their 'church' Dogma.

Ultimately it IS the "church" who, as a child or adult, indoctrinates by enabling the believers to interpret dogma which wouldn't exist in the first place without the 'church'. The 'church' has the ultimate responsibility. They came up with the 'idea' - whatever it is.

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/20/2009 10:14:44 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		So without the church there would be no prejudice against homosexuals?

So without the church there would be no objection to abortion

So without the church there would be no objection to adultery?

So without the church there would be no murder?

So without the church there would be no war?


Perhaps you say…well less maybe.

If as many seem to believe that there is no God or truth to religion then is it not true then that humans came up with all the problems in this world all by themselves? And then it would follow that people not religion were at fault?

So either way it is people not religion.


< Message edited by kdsub -- 10/20/2009 10:15:44 AM >

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/20/2009 10:19:46 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I believe you are wrong to blame all religions for their abhorrent actions. In fact doing so is the same as saying because one African American raped a woman…all African Americans are rapists.


Please stop lying about my position.


Perhaps we are not understanding each others points… I would not lie because I have no need.

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/20/2009 10:34:01 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

So without the church there would be no prejudice against homosexuals?
So without the church there would be no objection to abortion?
So without the church there would be no objection to adultery?
So without the church there would be no murder?
So without the church there would be no war?

If as many seem to believe that there is no God or truth to religion then is it not true then that humans came up with all the problems in this world all by themselves? And then it would follow that people not religion were at fault?


I'm not making that leap of faith, but I will provide some of the reasoning behind my previously documented assertions.

My opinion, which direct observation confirms, is that 'man' is inherently immoral, selfish, egotistical, and self absorbed. Individually man can and does overcome many of those tendencies. A person can be altruistic and reasoning on his own. Its when personal reasoning of what is 'good' must first past though a sieve of religious dogma that problems start to occur.

'Religion' provides a governing control for those 'natural' inclinations in lieu of personal, self control and empathy. Religions works by playing on man's fears. Fear of everlasting 'death' in hell, fear of the world ending through 'global warming'. Using fear works best when the followers are either ignorant or enable to understand natural and/or pragmatic reasoning. Resentment occurs when those realities can no longer be ignored; and us usually personified by violence.

Religions don't trust 'man' to independently come to the conclusion that interpersonal cooperation and frank communication with their fellow man will ultimately benefit all men. For debate purposes I'll remove one of the primary motivations of religion - financial profit for the organization and most importantly its managers/leaders/priests; and focus on the philosophical aspects. They may espouse 'equality' but, to my knowledge, there is no religion that doesn't give 'more equal' status to some subset of man. Their 'one true way' insures things like war, adultery, murder, abortion, and prejudice occur.

You're correct, ultimately it is people, but every evil idea a person can come up with is inspired, supported, and continues due to 'god's will'; through religious dogma.

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/20/2009 10:46:26 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Many would disagree with you on religions part in taming, teaching, and changing mans shortcomings... They would say religion on the whole is designed to mitigate our base tendencies.

In fact I can make the same assertions as you but in reverse to say man would not have individually overcome many of the tendencies you stated…without religion. I don’t think man on his own is very good at such things… At least the few nationalistic countries without religion did not do a very good job.


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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/20/2009 10:54:25 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		You see blaming the worlds problems on religion is like blaming the gun for murder... or the color red for gang warfare...or the Edsel for the fall of the American automotive industry...oh wait that is the reason sorry.

It is how people use these things that make them dangerous... not the things themselves. Hell every step we take could be dangerous… there is not place or action that could not be our destruction. Abolishing religion could be more dangerous then no religion at all. The best we can do is try to change the way our fellow humans use the tool of religion.

Butch


< Message edited by kdsub -- 10/20/2009 10:58:53 AM >

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/20/2009 10:58:41 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

They would say religion on the whole is designed to mitigate our base tendencies.
Thier method of doing so is a trade off or feeding fear. The teaching may be directed to not murder, but instead of focusing on mitigating base tendencies the lesson is taught by consequence; the threat of "everlasting suffering" in some place labeled hell. At the same time within the dogma, under certain cicumstances, killing people in god's name is rewarded. Unless the goal is generating psychotic followers this is counter indicated for mitigating, let alone eliminating, any tendency.

quote:

At least the few nationalistic countries without religion did not do a very good job.
Apply 'religion' in a broader sense. Communism, Nazism, conservatism, liberalism, all generate collateral and personnel causalities. Agreed - none, as a 'one true way' absolute, unquestioning, and uncompromising belief, do a very good job of benefiting 'man'.

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/20/2009 11:08:39 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		I do agree there is the fear of hell built into some religions...but seriously is that not how we learn as we grow. Is not fear involved when you spank your children? Or if you don't spank is it not fear of loosing privileges.

Fear is good not bad…it is the one thing that will dependably change behavior. Is it not wise to have fear as a nation to prevent war…Is it not wise to have fear of fire to not be burned? On and On.

Do we not kill in our countries names to safeguard our beliefs? Do you not kill to eat? Do you not kill to protect those you love.

Yes killing is abhorrent but necessary at times…Is Religion only to tell us what we want or what we need.

No I think you still miss my point again… It is not religion that warps man… It is man that warps religion. And I believe that without religion we would be in a worse place today then we are.


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/20/2009 11:20:11 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

I believe that without religion we would be in a worse place today then we are.


An irreconcilable difference of opinion which doesn't hurt either of us. Except it's notable to consider that were this in some parts of the world and I made that statement against the 'state religion' - I'd be subject to torture "in gods name" and "in god's mercy - death.

Man to man I can deal with differences and physical challenge. Confronted with a group empowered by religious dogma and belief that their 'one true way' should not be challenged - I don't have a chance.

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/20/2009 11:45:00 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
...In fact all but a very very very few of the religious are normal well-adjusted people.

False.

Specific to this discussion the anti medical care groups aren't just a very very very few people, they are large enough and well funded enough to get legislation passed and maintain it that exempts faith healers from prosecution for the deaths of their children.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
The few that are not would be nuts even if there were no religion or God.


False.

I used the example of the Phelps children earlier, they don't suffer from mental illness, they are expression those hateful positions because they have been taught them. If they were removed from that environment and deprogrammed they could become normal kids.

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/20/2009 11:46:10 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		I think you would have a good point if it were mans true motivation... I don't believe that is true...I think it is an excuse.

As an example...If I were Christian and you were an atheist and we lived next to each other and our existence did not depend on each others resources…then would live in peace.

But if I were hungry...or greedy...and wanted the apple tree in your back yard...and needed others to help me defeat you then what do you think I would use for an excuse to take your apples?...Religion I would think. But what if I was not religious and still wanted your apples...then I would find another excuse...say family or nationalism...I would find one. But because religion is so prevalent in this world it is often the easiest excuse.

Butch


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/20/2009 11:48:06 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
If as many seem to believe that there is no God or truth to religion then is it not true then that humans came up with all the problems in this world all by themselves? And then it would follow that people not religion were at fault?

So either way it is people not religion.


That's just a semantic game, under a number of definitions the people are the religion: "3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions." http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/20/2009 12:02:06 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

I think you would have a good point if it were mans true motivation... I don't believe that is true...
Again - only a difference of opinion.

quote:

family or nationalism...I would find one. But because religion is so prevalent in this world it is often the easiest excuse
Whether "family or nationalism" religion or 'traditional' religion, all are a rationalization that your 'one true way' supersedes mine. You prove the point. Unlike pragmatic needs, religion provides not only a rationalization but a justification for abhorrent behavior. 'Man' may ultimately regret his actions motivated by hunger. A true believer's Religion mitigates the guilt for actions taken against a non-believer, and in doing so, paves the road for more abhorrent actions in god's name. Should god exist, god shouldn't be an available and acceptable reason for any of man's actions taken against another. Religions provide legitimacy for that reasoning that wouldn't exist without their dogma.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 10/20/2009 12:26:52 PM >

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