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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/20/2009 12:09:57 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
So they are the vast majority then? Funny I thought there were a lot more of them knocking on my door lately. And yes I do think someone who would deny his or her child a blood transfusion or chemotherapy is unstable…. don’t you?

He refutes your claim that they are just a very very very few. Another well known religion that has engaged in such practices is Scientology: http://www.lisamcpherson.org/

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Have you ever looked in retrospect at your inability to see the good in religion? Perhaps you are no different then some of the people you rant against…with just a different mindset.

I don't think that brainwashing people into a fundamental disconnect from reality is good. Have you considered that your disagreement with me on this may be a product of the brainwashing?

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/20/2009 12:27:20 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I believe you are wrong to blame all religions for their abhorrent actions. In fact doing so is the same as saying because one African American raped a woman…all African Americans are rapists.


Please stop lying about my position.


Perhaps we are not understanding each others points… I would not lie because I have no need.


You made up that I said that, whereas I've been making statements to the contrary:
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
I'm sure that your interpretation of your religion doesn't involve killing...


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
There are forms of Christianity as well as other religions...


You've been straw-manning people rather blatantly the last couple of pages.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 242
RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/20/2009 1:09:38 PM   
Shekicromaster


Posts: 70
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

'We Few, We Happy Few, We Band of Brothers' by Dr. Andy Thomson, AAI 2007

Dr. Andy Thomson gives a talk on the motives behind suicide terrorism at the Atheist Alliance International 2007 Conference in Washington, D.C. This video is available on DVD as part of the 'AAI 2...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpImeYCZKBk&feature=sub


it has nothing to do with religion.
People will do all sorts of things in the name of all sorts of things. Communism, an officially and often forcefully atheist regime had it's share of that too..

We as humans do not act on reason, we act on emotions, ideas, presumptions that we only afterward try to rationalize. t is in the foundation of our mental activities, we could not function at all if that was not the case.  Maybe in some sectors and if we are involved with it, for example if we are scientists working in an exact field that is not the case for that particular situation. But in most cases it is. Take for example any social/ethical/political issue like abortion, social security and so on. Do people really take the time to study the subject impartially, understand every available point of view, and than understanding our on limitations and relativity of any opinion try to take the best possible position in the given circumstances as objectively as possible? And even than.. even if we decide to spend our lives studying relevant disciplines ( psychology, sociology, history, politics, ethics, theology, biology, medicine, ethnology, anthropology.. and so on) get 20 university degrees, read everything that was ever written about this subjects from every angle.. still we are bounded by available information, our own capacities of processing them and our preconditioned ideological views as this are not things that can be answered for good like in exact sciences.

And what than can we say about everyday situations, liking or disliking someone or a situation and so on?

Look how differently we act with people we like and those we don't like. When we are in love even the worst of the mankind become "perfect". When we can't stand someone's company even the smallest of things will irritate us. And of course we will always find "rational" reasons for all this. As it really is annoying that this guy always forgets his glasses on your table, that is nor irrational hate, what is enough is enough :D

So most of our choices in life are basically irrational, we just like to make it look it is not, but our argumentation is usually just a method of proving a point we already have taken before getting into a discussion, it is difficult to find someone completely free of this and ready to change his opinions based on arguments just like that..

And knowing that we must be aware we are all acting upon our... let's call it " subconscious programing" and that there is no much difference between us and those who do this terrorist attacks or whatever.  There is nothing rational in it. But there is nothing rational in the response to it either. There is nothing rational in developing nationalistic feelings in order to mobilize the nation for a war. Well there probably is on the part of those who are developing it, but not form the nation itself. There is not in most cases that much rationality even in discussions I can see on forums about health care reform in the states - people usually start to affiliate themselves with a certain ideology, a certain political option or a set of values at some point in their life and everything after that is an example of selective thinking and rationalizations. You might have the same critical situation somewhere in the world for example and even the same news article describing it. The leftist might find it a proof of his ideology about the world, economy, politics and so on and the rightist will find that same article am obvious proof of his worldview - selective thinking and seeing the same situation with different eyes.

We are all subjective, we all function on presumptions, emotions, first impressions and so on because it is a fundamental aspect of human behavior as much as it is  having two legs and arms. And as such we can be easily manipulated. And therefore we also have a tendency to see the world in black and white. Black and white is always an indication of an ideological approach. Because in the real world there is only gray. To see black or white one must be unable to detach from his programing and emotional reactions and to see something from different perspectives.

Suicide terrorism, Communist terrorism, eco terrorism, pentecostal churches, Hindu nationalism, Muslim terrorism, most of the wars USA engaged in after the WW2, any political elections anywhere, any social issue/debate, football fans, rock concerts... it look all the same to me. Granted some of those things have grave consequences but the mechanisms are the same, and we all function according to them, you can not possibly so simplistically blame just the religion, it is only one of the many possible tools of manipulation, and it can be used for good or for bed as anything else. People so blindly blaming it are rather narrow minded in my oppinion and one could question their intelligence and objectivity too :D

< Message edited by Shekicromaster -- 10/20/2009 1:26:09 PM >

(in reply to Brain)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/20/2009 3:14:20 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
So they are the vast majority then? Funny I thought there were a lot more of them knocking on my door lately. And yes I do think someone who would deny his or her child a blood transfusion or chemotherapy is unstable…. don’t you?

He refutes your claim that they are just a very very very few. Another well known religion that has engaged in such practices is Scientology: http://www.lisamcpherson.org/

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Have you ever looked in retrospect at your inability to see the good in religion? Perhaps you are no different then some of the people you rant against…with just a different mindset.

I don't think that brainwashing people into a fundamental disconnect from reality is good. Have you considered that your disagreement with me on this may be a product of the brainwashing?


I have serious questions about scientology being a religion.  But, thats not for me to judge.  Just because you slap the name" religion" on something doesnt make it one.  Just because you have a "church" doesnt make it a religion either.

As far as brainwashing, religion doesnt hold the patent, or the exclusive use on that either.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/20/2009 6:45:57 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Don't think I cannot see your well stated point...I do...I just believe you are wrong to think religion is a motivation for mans base nature. I think it is an excuse to justify it. And if there were no religion to use as an excuse there are many other excuses that have been used in the past.

If we abandon religion because people twist it’s meaning to brainwash people into war then shouldn’t we ban countries because nationalism causes war…then should we not dye all people gray to stop racial violence… Then should we require all homosexuals have sex change operations… Then would it not be easier to kill all atheists then the religious…well because they are in the vocal minority…except here on the heathen CM…lol

Silly…yes but no less silly then to say the good people of God in this world are a plague just because a minority do not believe.

Butch


< Message edited by kdsub -- 10/20/2009 7:26:16 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/20/2009 7:39:39 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I think it is an excuse to justify it.

Indeed. History provides us with overwhelming evidence that, while by our reason we may discern how to accomplish, it is by our heart that we must be guided in what to accomplish. The only "sin" about which we may be absolutely certain is heartlessness. Every tragedy inflicted by humankind has been born in a moment of that one supreme mistake. And from Shiva to Christ, every tradition that asserts a knowledge of Universal Reality has this singular truth at its core. Accordingly, therefore, within these traditions it may safely be said that any doctrine or scriptural text that violates this truth is corrupt on its face.

K.



(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/20/2009 7:43:07 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		ummm... you lost me, Master.  could you explain it, perhaps, a bit more in detail?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 247
RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/20/2009 9:41:32 PM   
Demspotis


Posts: 61
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Several thoughts and corrections spring to mind while browsing this thread:

It's a mistake to lump all religions together, and just as much to lump together different atheists. Furthermore there are atheistic religions, such as Buddhism and even more so, Jainism. (Incidentally, this latter atheistic religion of Jainism has a well-developed system of monks and monasteries. The ultimate goal of their spiritual practice is for each individual soul to completely free itself of bondage to matter, and thereby become omniscient and omnipresent, individually. As far as I understand it, that is.)

Someone described Hindus as polytheists. That's not really correct; in fact, it's not correct to put any one theological label on all Hindus, because Hinduism includes, a very great diversity of theological/philosophical conclusions. There are some who might consider themselves polytheists, but probably the majority, from several different branches, consider themselves theists or monotheists.  One responder included a good quote from the Bhagavad-Gita which illustrates the theist type of Hinduism; and in fact, the very title "Bhagavad-Gita" means "Song of God". Although many common translations and commentaries are made from monistic and/or non-theistic philosophical perspectives, the direct meaning of that Hindu scripture is a message of devotion to God.  

Atheistic communists have certainly persecuted religions. However, there is no reason to blame that on the atheism. Marxist communism and its offshoots are inherently revolutionary and totalitarian.  The fact is that all totalitarian fanatics, whether theocratic or political in nature share alike the habit of persecuting, preferably eliminating ALL dissidents, all who disagree with the party line or creed.
By contrast, capitalistic atheists show little or no particular tendency to oppress the religious, at least not much worse than mockery. Attempts of US atheists to remove religious material that appears to endorse religious points of view from government/public spaces - in a nation that has a constitutional separation of church and state - is quite a different thing from communists banning religion.

One example is attempts to have representations of the "Ten Commandments" from the Bible removed from government buildings, especially courthouses. I support this, as the first of those commandments is very specifically religious in nature, and while it may be acceptable to several religions, it excludes most others by definition: "I am YHWH your god, and you shall have no other gods before me". Furthermore, in the US, there is another set of ten laws that is far more appropriate and in fact urgently needed in every government building and office: the first Ten Amendments to the US Constitution, otherwise known as the Bill of Rights.

Final thought: fanatics, whether religious or political or any other type are a plague to this world. Many believers in God or gods are free of fanaticism, and even many entire religions are. There are some religions that have fanaticism, exclusivism and triumphalism in their core teachings, but others that do not. So let us not blame believers for the crimes of fanatics, especially when many fanatics aren't believers.

~Demspotis

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/20/2009 10:28:01 PM   
GoDolphins


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I would love to see one passage... any passage... that says we are not supposed to seek medical attention.  I can find many that encourage the use of medicines, oils and such... and a particular famous one that speaks of treating your body like a temple... but i have never found one that says to avoid medical treatment.

can anyone find one?


It doesn't exist.  All passages used for that are taken out of context.

Luke wrote one of the gospels and was a doctor. 

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 249
RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/21/2009 4:05:42 PM   
Kirata


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From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

ummm... you lost me, Master. could you explain it, perhaps, a bit more in detail?

With the Bible, vastly moreso than any other scriptural text I'm familiar with, we have to deal with massive corruption. The Pentateuch is principally an amalgam of two different older texts with radically different Deities (you can most clearly see the difference between them by comparing the two creation stories in Genesis). And the NT is absolutely riddled with inconsistencies (there are lists of them on the web).

So the question that arises for a Christian is, what are the real teachings of Jesus? For example, how can a man who freely forgave, who taught a loving Father, who said I and my Father are one, and, I will have mercy not sacrifice, be construed as an atonement sacrifice to a God who is ill disposed toward forgiving cheaply?

In my opinion, the doctrinal contortions that were required to create the Christianity we know today would be the envy of a circus performer. Because in the final analysis, the situation with which we are confonted is, if he said the one thing, then he can't have said the other. Accordingly, taking such texts wholesale as the Word of God and trying to base a religion on them can only lead to the worst sort of nonsense.

K.

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/21/2009 5:31:23 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
I have serious questions about scientology being a religion.

Well, I don't think it should get tax exempt status, but I don't see how it would fail to meet a dictionary definition for religion.
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
As far as brainwashing, religion doesnt hold the patent, or the exclusive use on that either.

Agreed, what's your point?

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 251
RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/21/2009 5:32:54 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Don't think I cannot see your well stated point...I do...I just believe you are wrong to think religion is a motivation for mans base nature.

Oh, we are playing the make up the other persons position game, I thought for a minute there you were straw-manning me in a very dishonest manner. Ok I'll play, why do you think there's a unicorn living in your asshole?


< Message edited by GotSteel -- 10/21/2009 6:26:16 PM >

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/21/2009 5:40:47 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
If we abandon religion because people twist it’s meaning to brainwash people

It doesn't take any twisting, brainwashing is an inherent part of Christianity.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
no less silly then to say the good people of God in this world are a plague just because a minority do not believe.

I don't think they are a plague, don't lump me in with Brain, I hit the hide button on him some time ago.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 253
RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/21/2009 9:21:36 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
I have serious questions about scientology being a religion.

Well, I don't think it should get tax exempt status, but I don't see how it would fail to meet a dictionary definition for religion.
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
As far as brainwashing, religion doesnt hold the patent, or the exclusive use on that either.

Agreed, what's your point?



According to the beliefs of scientology, gor would also qualify as a religion.

and my point is quite clear.  the Devil made me do it isnt a defense.  but sure gives many the opportunity to hang those who believe in religion.

we are all responsible for our actions.  no amount of trying to blame any religion will replace accountability.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 254
RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/21/2009 10:44:20 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
According to the beliefs of scientology, gor would also qualify as a religion.

I don't know enough about gor to offer an opinion on whether or not it qualifies as a religion. I also don't see why Scientology should be disqualified simply because it would cause other things to count. Perhaps, you have a valid argument and simply need to state it in greater detail. Let me just state, I'm not a fan of Scientology, I'm also not sure that's a topic which should be pursued in this thread, it might be an issue that's off topic enough to deserve it's own thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
and my point is quite clear.

Apparently not as clear as you think.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
the Devil made me do it isnt a defense.  but sure gives many the opportunity to hang those who believe in religion.

we are all responsible for our actions.  no amount of trying to blame any religion will replace accountability.

Agreed, I also think the Wisconsin couple who slowly watched their daughter die over the course of a month should have gotten a much harsher sentence. However you haven't in any way linked this statement to your previous one or really addressed my original point that brainwashing people into a fundamental disconnect from reality is bad.

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 10/21/2009 10:45:16 PM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/21/2009 11:51:19 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
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From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

brainwashing people into a fundamental disconnect from reality is bad.

Well, of course, it sure doesn't hold much promise of being good. But in the case of the couple who let their daughter die, it seems to me that their religious beliefs are merely a detail. It should make no difference whether the girl died because of the parents' religious beliefs, or whether she died because of their drinking habits. People have a right to believe whatever they want to believe, and they have a right to get drunk if they want to. But neither absolves them of responsibility for their behavior. If you want to put it in terms of "a fundamental disconnect from reality," the real disconnect here lies in the fact that that they weren't indicted on homicide charges.

K.




< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/22/2009 12:09:23 AM >

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/22/2009 12:42:25 AM   
WeWuvFwuffy4evah


Posts: 13
Joined: 10/21/2009
Status: offline 		Hey, so, Got Steel, I got a question for you.

Uh, is Burning Man a religion?

Since it's got effigies, lame-ass poseur advocates, costumes no beter than cardinals and bishops, has spineless cockswaddles pretending to know what is cool for everyone else, and a plethora of bad, derivative imagery stolen (like most Gen X and Gen Y music) from previous sources? 

Seems like a ton of religions to me.

except of course that Burning Man doesn't cater to anyone who'll bother to read a book on a religion instead of suck a bong.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 257
RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/22/2009 5:13:02 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WeWuvFwuffy4evah

Hey, so, Got Steel, I got a question for you.

Uh, is Burning Man a religion?


The older form described in Caesars commentaries on Gaul is certainly a religious ceremony as for the new version, I’m not terribly well informed about it but I was under the impression it’s a party.

If you want to know if something would count as a religion you don’t need to ask me just consult a dictionary. 


(in reply to WeWuvFwuffy4evah)
Profile   Post #: 258
RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/22/2009 5:39:00 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
So they are the vast majority then? Funny I thought there were a lot more of them knocking on my door lately. And yes I do think someone who would deny his or her child a blood transfusion or chemotherapy is unstable…. don’t you?

He refutes your claim that they are just a very very very few. Another well known religion that has engaged in such practices is Scientology: http://www.lisamcpherson.org/

I'd question that $cientology is any sort of religion: the founder knew it was a load of crap, and so (presumably) do the people who are currently running it. It's a power structure, a personality and a con trick, but it isn't a religion and never was. Hell, a lot of the people who go into it join up to a front organisation like Narcanon or one of the therapy cults under false pretences, don't they?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 259
RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 10/22/2009 6:04:13 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Agreed, I also think the Wisconsin couple who slowly watched their daughter die over the course of a month should have gotten a much harsher sentence. However you haven't in any way linked this statement to your previous one or really addressed my original point that brainwashing people into a fundamental disconnect from reality is bad.


And i believe these parents abdicated their responsibilities long before their daughter died.  I also agree they were let off too lightly.  I also believe those with them should have been held just as accountable.  If we had held them to the same standards as the parents, they may not have sat back so long and waited to watch that girl die.

What accountability to you give to those who were with the parents who you considered "brain washed"?  they werent alone... someone already mentioned they were child-like...  the bible speaks of physicians and healing in more than one passage... yet people allow themselves to be deluded.  and you wish to blame religion and not those who are distorting it.

here is what i see here

people who distort religion are still considered religious....

people who distort the Constitution are considered traitors....

just because someone thumps a bible and sings "Glory Glory" in a church doesnt mean they are religious.


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 260
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