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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/17/2009 5:15:31 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
No, you simply disagreed with me. 


Actually, I corrected you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
Simply asserting that you are right does not constitute an effective argument.  I do concede that you asserted your correctness at length, though, and if I was impressed by a preponderance of words it would have been effective. 


I'm not simply asserting that I am right, I am flatly telling you what I am. Since I'm not a sub, I can't possibly fall into the categories you set forth. So, by default, you're wrong.



Loki, I was stating that your generalization of taking a single instance and insisting it apply to an entire population was ridiculous.  I then added some examples of others who had done so.  Instead of accepting my premise that you were overgeneralizing, you have insisted that I have ascribed motives to you and that I have called you a submissive.  You have never addressed the salient point, that you took the actions of a single woman and fallaciously ascribed them to the entire gender.


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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/17/2009 5:22:42 AM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
Loki, the article talked about specific problems. Such as the nearly 40% sexual harassment rates at the service academies,


Which we can dismiss, because rape happens everywhere and therefore it's not relevant to a story about how they have it worse "over there." Rape happens here, there, Africa, the streets of L.A., location and job title don't change that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
the fact that a married female soldier is 3 times more likely not to have her spouse wait for her deployment to end,


And who made the choice to be a war fighter and run off to war to show that it's not just a man's world?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
to the fact that they're bleeding all over their clothes for five days out of 28 because the commanders will not order tampons and pads. Me, I would organize a raid on the commander's closet to turn into rags to use. That is just deliberately dirty pool, trying to force the women out by refusing to order medical supplies.


Not the military's fault. When you deploy, your deployment instructions say to bring with you everything you will need for your deployment beyond basic things like food and toilet paper. Want to shower? Bring soap. Want to wash your hair? Bring shampoo. On medication? Bring extra.

These are in the orders for EVERYONE who deploys, be they male or female. If the woman is "bleeding all over her clothes" it's because she could not follow instructions. Women don't get free tampons at their home station, they must buy them. If they need them on a deployment they are supposed to bring them.

Trying to use that as a reason to bitch about how bad they have it over there is ridiculous. That would be like me bitching that I couldn't shower over there because they didn't issue me any soap. Or bitching that I couldn't shave because they didn't give me razors.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
And I don't understand why you think PTSD is supposedly. It isn't a joke, if you had ever suffered flashbacks you would understand how dangerous they are. The first time I had one I was behind the wheel of a car. It's a miracle I managed not to kill myself or someone else.


You're misreading my posts just like holly is. I know PTSD is no joke. Men come back home with it often when they get  blown up, when their best friends die in their arms, when they are shot down, etc.

Don't think I have heard yet about a guy getting PTSD for being 'yelled at.'


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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/17/2009 5:25:24 AM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
Loki, I was stating that your generalization of taking a single instance and insisting it apply to an entire population was ridiculous.  I then added some examples of others who had done so.  Instead of accepting my premise that you were overgeneralizing, you have insisted that I have ascribed motives to you and that I have called you a submissive. 


Steven, let it go, you were wrong. Just deal with it. Your chosen 'examples' of others 'who had done so' did not apply to me, so I corrected you with an example that was spot on (because it is who I am). Just accept that your examples were shit and that I corrected you.

And then move on.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
You have never addressed the salient point, that you took the actions of a single woman and fallaciously ascribed them to the entire gender.


Actually, I most certainly have. (Another point you're wrong on.) I have most certainly said that I don't feel women belong anywhere near combat and am using this one example as my reasoning. Where's the disconnect? Where have I not "addressed the salient point?" I've flat-out admitted it. Where's the issue?


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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/17/2009 5:27:18 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

Steven, let it go, you were wrong. Just deal with it.



I AM letting it go.  I'm walking away from this discussion in which you insist that you are right because I'm not making any headway.  The thread's all yours.

Bye.


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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/17/2009 5:28:01 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly
Loki...damn right the yelling can be a trigger. PTSD can be triggered by the things you least expect. Do you think a VietNam vet needs to hear gunfire to have a flashback?


You misunderstand. The yelling didn't cause the girl in the article to have a flashback. That was the event "over there" that supposedly GAVE her PTSD to begin with. She wasn't in combat. She wasn't attacked. Her best friend didn't die in her arms, she didn't have half her convoy wiped out by a roadside bomb. Guys yelled at her and now that's she's back home, she can't function.

Hell, I got "yelled at" in basic training. Didn't phase me a bit.


quote:


Actually Loki is right, the men yelling at her caused the trauma, the trigger come after the event. According to the article, she said "While pulling security detail for an Army convoy stuck in gridlocked traffic, Peacock's vehicle came alongside a van full of Iraqi men who "began shouting that they were going to kill us,"

that was the event that caused the PTSD....now anything that causes her to relive that afterward would be a trigger.


ok...i was a bit foggy in the details...considering Loki started babbling about something he read before bothering to post the link.

The issue remains that Loki is questioning the cause of her PTSD by stating HE was yelled at in Basic and did not suffer flashbacks...  and she was not in combat, was not shot at, did not lose a friend in her arms.








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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/17/2009 5:28:28 AM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
I AM letting it go.  I'm walking away from this discussion in which you insist that you are right because I'm not making any headway.  The thread's all yours.


Finally, now instead of debating who was right about what "description" fits me best, we can talk about the articles I posted -- ie the reason for the thread in the first place.

Bye.


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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/17/2009 5:28:32 AM   
DesFIP


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From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		You still don't get it, sexual harassment in the general population is under 25%. Around 15% higher at the service academies. You really think the same bastard who rapes a fellow cadet won't rape a fellow soldier? The rate is much higher than in general population. Male homosexuals are allowed to fly under the radar. A woman who doesn't consent to undesired sex is reported as a lesbian. So a female soldier must either suffer rape or get kicked out on a dishonorable discharge.

And the link you provided stated that menstrual pads are not considered to be the same as shampoo or hand lotion, that the military calls them medical supplies and promises to provide them and that specific commanders refuse to comply with military procedures.

Women do serve. They serve in other nation's armies as well without any of this tolerated abuse.

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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/17/2009 5:31:45 AM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly
ok...i was a bit foggy in the details...considering Loki started babbling about something he read before bothering to post the link.


Don't try and indicate that the lack of a link was what made you foggy. I flat out, on more than one occasion, told you what it said. That didn't change after posting the link. Sure, other details in the story are now known (because I obviously couldn't re-type the whole story) but the basic gist of what I was saying and what I was commenting on was unchanged. Yet for the better part of 2 pages, you still refused to let go of the word "trigger" in the context in which it was used.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly
The issue remains that Loki is questioning the cause of her PTSD by stating HE was yelled at in Basic and did not suffer flashbacks...  and she was not in combat, was not shot at, did not lose a friend in her arms.


Actually, I'm questioning it because far worse has happened to so many others. Then I likened it to the women who make false claims of rape somehow making it harder for the real victims. If she got PTSD from being "yelled at" she had no business over there.


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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/17/2009 5:31:54 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

You're misreading my posts just like holly is. I know PTSD is no joke. Men come back home with it often when they get blown up, when their best friends die in their arms, when they are shot down, etc.

Don't think I have heard yet about a guy getting PTSD for being 'yelled at.'

and therefore...you dispute it? She was a weak female?

Read your own article. She thought she was going to die and she nearly opened fire. THAT would cause a flashback in the average normal person.


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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/17/2009 5:34:10 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

uote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly
The issue remains that Loki is questioning the cause of her PTSD by stating HE was yelled at in Basic and did not suffer flashbacks... and she was not in combat, was not shot at, did not lose a friend in her arms.




quote:

Actually, I'm questioning it because far worse has happened to so many others. Then I likened it to the women who make false claims of rape somehow making it harder for the real victims. If she got PTSD from being "yelled at" she had no business over there.


who do you think you are to determine what does or does not qualify as a reason for PTSD?


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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/17/2009 5:35:57 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

If she got PTSD from being "yelled at" she had no business over there.

for the last freaking time...that "yelling" did not amount to cat calls and requests for a blow job. The men were yelling they were going to kill her.
She nearly used her weapon.

More serious then simple yelling.....


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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/17/2009 5:37:39 AM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
You still don't get it, sexual harassment in the general population is under 25%. Around 15% higher at the service academies. You really think the same bastard who rapes a fellow cadet won't rape a fellow soldier? The rate is much higher than in general population. Male homosexuals are allowed to fly under the radar. A woman who doesn't consent to undesired sex is reported as a lesbian. So a female soldier must either suffer rape or get kicked out on a dishonorable discharge.


That in itself is a false claim. I knew many females who told guys to go to hell and they didn't get called a lesbian. Bitch maybe, but not lesbian. Hell one of my best friends in the service kicked the shit out of a guy who grabbed her ass so badly, 3 MEN had to pull her off of him. No one said she was a lesbian......actually....we called her Trinity after that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
And the link you provided stated that menstrual pads are not considered to be the same as shampoo or hand lotion, that the military calls them medical supplies and promises to provide them and that specific commanders refuse to comply with military procedures.


Then I would suggest that part of the article is false. Because I have seen the deployment orders (they are the same for everyone). They indicate that if you need it, you bring it. They flat-out say any meds you are on, you are to bring with you, including birth control pills.

They do this because in a combat zone, you never know when your next supply shipment will come. If things get really bad, the whole system could be screwed up for days. Look at the grunts who patrol the mountains of afghanistan. Do you think they can just walk into a clinic for some headache meds? Nope. If they don't have it in their packs, they don't get it.

The list for a deployment is LONG. It specifies exactly what you are to bring and indicates in no uncertain terms that you should not expect to be able to acquire an item at the deployment location.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
Women do serve. They serve in other nation's armies as well without any of this tolerated abuse.


I'd like to hear them say that, if you don't mind. If you think all the pansy-ass whining passes in say...Israel...I'd laugh. The Israelis respect their women warriors for a reason. You never hear a female Israeli assassin saying 'oh I broke a nail.'


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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/17/2009 5:37:50 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45


And who made the choice to be a war fighter and run off to war to show that it's not just a man's world?



I don't know Loki, who made that choice? I know your not talking about the girl in question, because the article didn't say why she joined. Unless of course your just assuming that's why she joined and we all know what happens when you assume shit. Or maybe you know her in real life?

< Message edited by thishereboi -- 10/17/2009 5:42:16 AM >

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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/17/2009 5:40:46 AM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly
for the last freaking time...that "yelling" did not amount to cat calls and requests for a blow job. The men were yelling they were going to kill her.
She nearly used her weapon.

More serious then simple yelling.....


Oh my gosh!!! She *almost* used her weapon? Oh no!!!!!!

Darlin', I answered my own front door with a pistol in my hand not three years ago. I had a guy almost hit me with HIS truck and then get out and get into my face like he wanted to fight when I called him on it.

As they say -- almost only counts in horseshoes and handgrenades. There are guys over there who DO use their weapon daily. There are youtube videos of a soldier ducking miliseconds before a sniper round hits the wall beside his head. There are videos of people's convoys being blown to shit, choppers getting shot down....hell, a guy in a firefight in pink boxers.

And she was "yelled at" and "almost" fired her weapon.


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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/17/2009 5:42:02 AM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
I don't know Loki, would made that choice? I know your not talking about the girl in question, because the article didn't say why she joined. Unless of course your just assuming that's why she joined and we all know what happens when you assume shit. Or maybe you know her in real life?


None of the above....simply relaying the tried and true feminist mindset.


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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/17/2009 5:42:53 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly
for the last freaking time...that "yelling" did not amount to cat calls and requests for a blow job. The men were yelling they were going to kill her.
She nearly used her weapon.

More serious then simple yelling.....


Oh my gosh!!! She *almost* used her weapon? Oh no!!!!!!

Darlin', I answered my own front door with a pistol in my hand not three years ago. I had a guy almost hit me with HIS truck and then get out and get into my face like he wanted to fight when I called him on it.

As they say -- almost only counts in horseshoes and handgrenades. There are guys over there who DO use their weapon daily. There are youtube videos of a soldier ducking miliseconds before a sniper round hits the wall beside his head. There are videos of people's convoys being blown to shit, choppers getting shot down....hell, a guy in a firefight in pink boxers.



so?


again...she developed PTSD from her experiences. It is not up to you to determine the reason was not good enough.



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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/17/2009 5:43:19 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
I don't know Loki, would made that choice? I know your not talking about the girl in question, because the article didn't say why she joined. Unless of course your just assuming that's why she joined and we all know what happens when you assume shit. Or maybe you know her in real life?


None of the above....simply relaying the tried and true feminist mindset.



Well you should stop then, it's making you look foolish.


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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/17/2009 5:43:24 AM   
Loki45


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Status: offline 		This is kinda fun. I haven't had an argument like this in weeks. I kinda missed it. 

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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/17/2009 5:44:47 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

This is kinda fun. I haven't had an argument like this in weeks. I kinda missed it. 
enjoy yourself.

Steven had the right idea.

<---makes like a tree and leaves.


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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/17/2009 5:44:57 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

This is kinda fun. I haven't had an argument like this in weeks. I kinda missed it. 


Yea, it is, but now I have homework to do and that's not fun.

Oh well, have a great day everyone.


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