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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/18/2009 12:23:35 PM

variation30

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx
Nature, not nations designed the mental make-up and urges of humanity to imply that man made law and the word NO will cover every contingency is ridiculous.

I wouldn't argue against that.

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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/18/2009 12:31:31 PM

Loki45

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex
So your first point may be correct, but your broader point is on shaky ground.

Shaky ground, perhaps. It's still my opinion, and every story I see like this just helps my views. Perhaps they aren't helped in everyone's mind, but they are in mine.

I know for a fact if I were still in, and serving on the front lines, no way would I want a woman backing me up. Are some capable? Absolutely. I've even met a girl who was at a base that got overrun. She took a knife in the wrist and killed the guy who did it. She's out now because a grenade landed near her and she blew her knees out getting away from it.

She's the exception. In this country fitness is a joke. And in this country's military, fitness is usually forced. Most folks, to include some men, only do the minimum requirements to remain in service. The difference is, that a man who does the minimum is far more likely to drag another wounded man out of the fire than is an average-sized woman who only did the minimum. As others have already pointed out in agreement with me, the fitness requirements for women are about half what they are for men. So while my 'minimum' is 50 pushups....far more than most civilians do in a day....the minimum for a similarly aged woman is half that. On top of that, in basic training they were allowed to do them "girlie style." No way a minimum-doing woman is going to be able to lift or carry what a man is in a tense situation. It's just the way it is. It's the way we're built.

Hell, I don't even exercise now, and aside from a lil belly, I look like I work out regularly and when it comes time to bring in groceries, I get them all......all at once...and usually in one hand. And the belly thing, hell most men my age have that unless they're pro atheletes.

Until women are expected to do what the men in our military can do, they will not be 'equal.' But see, the moment you stop coddling them in the military, they whine about things being too hard because they're "built differently." Well no shit they're built differently....but that doesn't make a female israeli soldier bitch about it.

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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/18/2009 12:58:59 PM

ghitaPVH

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I agree that the Military coddles women. I dont think that means women are any less capable. At least not women as a whole. I do think the Military's leaniant standards towards women allow in women who probably arent up to the tasks demanded on them during a hazardous situation. If a woman is going to be asked to do the same job as a man, and handle the same pressures as a man, she needs to do the EXACT same training as a man. My husband teaches survival training here in the forests of central Florida. I participate. I have occasionally marched a full 10 mile day with 60 pounds on my back, only to drop my pack when camp was reached, set up defensible fire positions, and secure an area in just as little time as the men training with me. I have moved through a firing range with just as much speed and accuracy as the men at my side (sometimes it helps to be a women, we actually typically are steadier shooters)...I have PTd at 4am with a man built like a bulldozer yelling at me. I have dug holes only to fill them back in and dig more...I have moved through the woods in a moonless night with no hi-tech nightvision goggles while holding a rifle and walking crouched into a squat the entire 4 hour journey. The best way to guarantee I will do something is to tell me I CANT do it. Please don't insinuate that the woman didnt hack it for the sole reason that she was a woman. Women may not be physically as strong as men, but we CAN be strong. Women CAN do everything men are asked to do in the Military, they just arent forced to and so you end up with women who take the easy route and get the people around them killed....

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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/18/2009 1:00:43 PM

AnimusRex

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45
Hell, I don't even exercise now, and aside from a lil belly, I look like I work out regularly and when it comes time to bring in groceries, I get them all......all at once...and usually in one hand. And the belly thing, hell most men my age have that unless they're pro atheletes.

Impressive. When Kim brings in the groceries, sometimes she needs to use both hands.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

Until women are expected to do what the men in our military can do, they will not be 'equal.' But see, the moment you stop coddling them in the military, they whine about things being too hard because they're "built differently." Well no shit they're built differently....but that doesn't make a female israeli soldier bitch about it.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on women's abilities to perform COIN tactics as I outlined in my previous post. It could be argued that in this type of warfighting, it is men who don't belong over there.

But I wouldn't be so inflammatory.

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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/18/2009 1:14:00 PM

Loki45

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex
Impressive. When Kim brings in the groceries, sometimes she needs to use both hands.

It seems more impressive when you see how much it really is. When I say "all," I am talking about easily 2-weeks' worth of groceries, to include more than a handful of 12-packs of soda and a large case of water. But regardless, I wasn't trying to sound 'too' impressive. Simply pointing out that I, a couch potato who never works out, look like I'm built like a gym rat (except for my belly).

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex
I would be interested to hear your thoughts on women's abilities to perform COIN tactics as I outlined in my previous post. It could be argued that in this type of warfighting, it is men who don't belong over there.

I have no thoughts on this because it's largely not relevant. You see, it doesn't matter what sort of tactics we try, the enemy is still trying to kill us. We still have outposts of 8 soldiers being overrun by more than 200 insurgents. The COIN tactics you're talking about would be useless in that instance.

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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/18/2009 1:18:37 PM

DrkJourney

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

It ain't easy on men either. Or children, for that matter.

not a picnic for the spouses either....

yeah, cause I'm having a blast...lol

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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/18/2009 1:19:23 PM

Loki45

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ghitaPVH
I agree that the Military coddles women. I dont think that means women are any less capable. At least not women as a whole. I do think the Military's leaniant standards towards women allow in women who probably arent up to the tasks demanded on them during a hazardous situation. If a woman is going to be asked to do the same job as a man, and handle the same pressures as a man, she needs to do the EXACT same training as a man. My husband teaches survival training here in the forests of central Florida. I participate. I have occasionally marched a full 10 mile day with 60 pounds on my back, only to drop my pack when camp was reached, set up defensible fire positions, and secure an area in just as little time as the men training with me. I have moved through a firing range with just as much speed and accuracy as the men at my side (sometimes it helps to be a women, we actually typically are steadier shooters)...I have PTd at 4am with a man built like a bulldozer yelling at me. I have dug holes only to fill them back in and dig more...I have moved through the woods in a moonless night with no hi-tech nightvision goggles while holding a rifle and walking crouched into a squat the entire 4 hour journey. The best way to guarantee I will do something is to tell me I CANT do it. Please don't insinuate that the woman didnt hack it for the sole reason that she was a woman. Women may not be physically as strong as men, but we CAN be strong. Women CAN do everything men are asked to do in the Military, they just arent forced to and so you end up with women who take the easy route and get the people around them killed....

You make my point for me. (Well said, by the way.) I am not simply saying women can't hack it because they're women. I'm saying that average women can't hack it because they are average women. And the military perpetuates this. I've also said before in this thread that while I don't think our nation's women belong in combat, I wouldn't dare fuck with a female Israeli soldier. They don't coddle their women the way we do and that female Israeli soldier would fuck me up. The Israeli's didn't get known for their badass military because of the colors of their uniform, after all. Their women do and are expected to do everything their men are. Ours are not. Hell, last time I checked, a significant number or the women I served with indicated they joined for one of two reasons -- college or marriage. The moment one or the other happens, they're out.

I've also related the story of the girl I used to work with having been in Iraq and at a base that was overrun. She killed a guy who stabbed her in the wrist and then fucked up her knees running from a grenade. But during my time in, the majority of the women I met wouldn't be capable of anything like that.

Women "could" be capable of such things if they truly believed in equality and demanded the same training the men are forced to endure. But they don't and won't, because "they're girls" and "built different." So, the military gets exactly the women it trains -- weak ones. Occasionally one sets herself apart, but during my near-decade in the service, most I saw I wouldn't want backing me up.

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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/18/2009 1:52:07 PM

sirsholly

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

The only two things that disturb me in this article are the comments about sexual assault (that was always a complaint of mine as they integrated an all men's club. I grow weary of the demand to suppress the natural instincts of men while we seemingly expand the virtues and privilege of women.) Now I'm not advocating misbehavior, but I don't believe this issue is as simple as MEN must learn to control themselves.
"Well gee YourHonor...we were in a fox-hole and i was WEARY of suppressing my natural instincts. I know she said no and is accusing me of rape, but hey...she wanted to be a member of the Mens Club."

Trust me holly..........if I or most any man/warrior I knew were the man in the field you would be completely safe, at least where sexual interest or conduct would be concerned.

What type of eye roll do you have for that one?

no eye roll and not surprised in the least. There is no doubt you would not approach if you place any value on the balls you do have.

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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/18/2009 2:00:22 PM

masterofholly

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That's my girl!

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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/18/2009 4:14:37 PM

xBullx

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A threat? Surely you realize that making threats is against the TOS. But in any event why ever would you threaten a man that's honor would spare you and your chastity?

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

The only two things that disturb me in this article are the comments about sexual assault (that was always a complaint of mine as they integrated an all men's club. I grow weary of the demand to suppress the natural instincts of men while we seemingly expand the virtues and privilege of women.) Now I'm not advocating misbehavior, but I don't believe this issue is as simple as MEN must learn to control themselves.
"Well gee YourHonor...we were in a fox-hole and i was WEARY of suppressing my natural instincts. I know she said no and is accusing me of rape, but hey...she wanted to be a member of the Mens Club."

Trust me holly..........if I or most any man/warrior I knew were the man in the field you would be completely safe, at least where sexual interest or conduct would be concerned.

What type of eye roll do you have for that one?

no eye roll and not surprised in the least. There is no doubt you would not approach if you place any value on the balls you do have.

< Message edited by xBullx -- 10/18/2009 4:23:49 PM >

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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/18/2009 4:19:06 PM

xBullx

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It's obvious that my balls weren't the first set that she has ever threatened. It would appear that she has already confiscated yours.

quote:

ORIGINAL: masterofholly

That's my girl!

< Message edited by xBullx -- 10/18/2009 4:22:04 PM >

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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/18/2009 4:29:27 PM

Lockit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

I haven't read this entire thread yet so perhaps these points have been touched on but:

The only two things that disturb me in this article are the comments about sexual assault (that was always a complaint of mine as they integrated an all men's club. I grow weary of the demand to suppress the natural instincts of men while we seemingly expand the virtues and privilege of women.) Now I'm not advocating misbehavior, but I don't believe this issue is as simple as MEN must learn to control themselves. Anyone ever serving in an extended combat environment can tell you the multiple anxieties associated with deployment.

The second thing is the last comment about females exiting the service sooner than men; that is the case in all labor sects. The maternal instinct in the majority of women is to do just that....stay home and tend her babies. Again this isn't rocket science folks. Nothing complicated needing addressed in this case.

What exactly do you mean by this?

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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/18/2009 5:02:54 PM

sirsholly

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

It's obvious that my balls weren't the first set that she has ever threatened. It would appear that she has already confiscated yours.

quote:

ORIGINAL: masterofholly

That's my girl!

of course i did. His are worth having.

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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/18/2009 5:05:15 PM

ModeratorEleven

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Ok kids, enough.

XI

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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/18/2009 5:18:05 PM

AnimusRex

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45
Women "could" be capable of such things if they truly believed in equality and demanded the same training the men are forced to endure. But they don't and won't, because "they're girls" and "built different." So, the military gets exactly the women it trains -- weak ones. Occasionally one sets herself apart, but during my near-decade in the service, most I saw I wouldn't want backing me up.

Well ok- after all this, your real point is not to have a serious discussion about women in the military, but to express to all of us your experiences with the women you served with, and vent your frustration with your perceptions about their lack of fitness.

Fine, you win. The thing is, no one can argue with your perceptions, because, well, they are your perceptions- we weren't there, we didn't see or experience what you saw, so we can only take your word for it that they were all weak ass bitches.

Of course, I find it curious that voices like yours are in the minority, that overall, our military seems to have no trouble killing people or blowing stuff up. In all the firefights I have read about, the US forces seemed to do pretty well.

Now let me meet you halfway- women seem to be doing pretty well in law enforcement- small and weak though they may be, they are doing very well at keeping the peace. The original fuss over integrating them onto city police forces has died down, and now no one would think of going back to an all-male force.

However- female firefighters are another matter- There was an excellent article in LA Weekly about 2 years ago, where the writer did an in-depth study of the efforts to recruit female firefighters, and discovered that even with the most strenuous recruiting, counseling, and placement efforts, only a tiny fraction of females were able to adequately make the grade. So today, even after decades of effort, the LA Fire Department is ovewhelmingly male. It has nothing to do with sexism, it is the upper body strength that is the hurdle. And climbing ladders with a bunch of shit on their back is THE centerpiece of firefighting.

So back to your post- I know you had a bad experience with women in your term of service.
Can you back up your point with some sort of examples of how your opinion is not just one guys opinion, but shared by many others in the military?

Otherwise, this is just another "A woman cut me off in traffic- DAMN those women drivers!" type rant.

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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/18/2009 9:37:18 PM

Loki45

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quote:

Original: AnimusRex
Well ok- after all this, your real point is not to have a serious discussion about women in the military, but to express to all of us your experiences with the women you served with, and vent your frustration with your perceptions about their lack of fitness.

Actually it's both (but you forgot one -- to express my amusement at their inadequacies).

quote:

Original: AnimusRex
Of course, I find it curious that voices like yours are in the minority, that overall, our military seems to have no trouble killing people or blowing stuff up.

Actually, it's the men who do most of the "blowing stuff up," as they are the only ones currently permitted in 'front-line combat roles.'

As for my voice being in the minority, that's largely because HR-type rules in the military forbid the males from speaking out against such things. However, in many cases, there are 'unoffical' digs at women. While I was serving I met a marine who informed me that in boot camp, women marines were given the acronym "WOM" which stood, officially, for "women marines." However, as he related, the acronym has another, unofficial meaning -- "waste of money."

quote:

Original: AnimusRex
So back to your post- I know you had a bad experience with women in your term of service.

Actually, it's more to do with my general opinion (backed up by your firefighting tale, since many branches of service give you ruck sacks and weapons with weights very similary to what firefighters carry), than it is anything to do with my experience while serving. In fact, the women friends I tended to have while serving were of the type with whom I would not want to fuck. One earned the nickname "Trinity" after kicking the shit out of a guy for grabbing her ass. Three men had to pull her off. Unfortunately, for every one girl I knew like that while in, there were scores of the 'dainty' variety.

quote:

Original: AnimusRex
Can you back up your point with some sort of examples of how your opinion is not just one guys opinion, but shared by many others in the military?

Only the unofficial variety such as the "waste of money" acronym. Well that and the stories that indicate the women are suddenly 'supposedly' having a tougher time in the service than the men are.

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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/19/2009 4:00:53 AM

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Rex, you mentioned something that came up a couple of years ago in LA, regarding women in the firefighter department. This issue is one of the first that made me look at what passes as feminism (for some) as utter bullcaca. Attorney and noted feminist Gloria Allred appeared on a talk show several years ago, and she was vehemently arguing that women should be allowed to work as firefighters (somewhere in CA, may have been Los Angeles?), NO MATTER if they passed the physical or not, that the tests should be eased until enough of them could pass, to suit her idea of equality, I suppose.

I love women, but that.... that kind of nonsense has no place in the world.

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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/19/2009 4:56:48 AM

Loki45

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
Rex, you mentioned something that came up a couple of years ago in LA, regarding women in the firefighter department. This issue is one of the first that made me look at what passes as feminism (for some) as utter bullcaca. Attorney and noted feminist Gloria Allred appeared on a talk show several years ago, and she was vehemently arguing that women should be allowed to work as firefighters (somewhere in CA, may have been Los Angeles?), NO MATTER if they passed the physical or not, that the tests should be eased until enough of them could pass, to suit her idea of equality, I suppose.

I love women, but that.... that kind of nonsense has no place in the world.

Indeed. This all makes me think of a game show called Wipeout. In Wipeout, contestants are chosen from all walks of life. You see the ones who look like they're no stranger to the gym as well as those who look like they would only run when chasing a free cheeseburger. I love the show for its evidence of men's physical superiority. I'll explain:

The show has been on for...I think 2 seasons. And aside from the "couples" shows they've done, women have won the competition less than a handful of times. You see, when you take contestants that represent "average" men and pit them even-steven against "average" women, the men win almost every time.

It was getting so sad and ridiculous that their first time having a female winner was because they literally stacked the deck. It was a "special" Wipeout where they pitted "couch potato" men vs "athletic" women. Aside from that episode, and not counting the coules episodes where a woman must obvious be one half of the couple, women have one literally less than a small handful of times in the show's two-year run.

I'm all for women doing what job they want -- if and ONLY if they meet *ALL* the physical requirements that their male counterparts do. Don't dumb down the physical requirements and say they pass. Either they pass with the men, or they don't pass. Because in a firefight, they aren't going to be able to 'cheat' when trying to drag another soldier out of the line of fire. They'll either have the strength, or they won't.

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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/19/2009 5:32:41 AM

sirsholly

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quote:

I'm all for women doing what job they want -- if and ONLY if they meet *ALL* the physical requirements that their male counterparts

*let 'em go long enough and the contradiction will come*

So...now women are just fine in the military if they pass the requirements.

Well goodie.

PTSD is NOT predictable. Since the PTSD was secondary to an incident that happened after boot camp, your argument no longer has any basis.

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RE: Who would have thought -- war is 'hard' - 10/19/2009 5:58:12 AM

Loki45

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly
So...now women are just fine in the military if they pass the requirements.

Actually, in my opinion, they're never going to be 'just fine' because they will never be expected to meet the same requirements. The requirements thing was simply a statement of how they 'might' be 'just fine.' Unfortunately, the requirements thing will never change. Ergo, they'll never be 'just fine.'

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly
PTSD is NOT predictable. Since the PTSD was secondary to an incident that happened after boot camp, your argument no longer has any basis.

Sure it does. I never heard of a man who got PTSD from 'almost' firing his weapon while being yelled at. My argument will always have a basis, because it's *my* argument. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not my argument.

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