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RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/18/2009 9:28:36 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
Although, I am willing to admit that the pedant and picky bastard in me may just be preferential to the overt focusing on tone and intent.
*chuckles* I couldn't care less about tone. I want substance. So long as I know where Carol's head is at, then it really doesn't matter what comes out her mouth. And frankly, I've always like the funny, irreverant Carol who called our marriage "playing house". The last thing in the world I'd want to do is squash that behind some facade of slavehood when the real deal is already mine.... again, just how it is for us.


_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/18/2009 9:48:04 PM   
BKSir


Posts: 4037
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Salt Lake City, UT
Status: offline 		There's a very distinct difference to me.  Just like asking "Can I eat a piece of that pie?" or "May I eat a piece of that pie?".  Can you?  Well, you're probably physically capable of doing so, but "may you?"  No.  It's my pie.  Screw you.

If my pet says he can't or won't do something, however, either way, I expect a reason.  He can't put his legs behind his head because his hip is a bit wonky.  Fine, understandable.  He won't engage in watersports, because he finds it repulsive.  To me, that's a good enough reason.  Me not wanting to either is beside the point.    Even if I wanted to, at least in the context of something sexual, and he didn't, and I went ahead with it anyway, it would be, in my opinion, nothing short of rape anyway. 

Now, "I won't do dishes.".  Oh?  Like hell you won't.  You're my pet, you'll do the damn dishes...  usually.  So in some aspects there's a big difference, depending on the situation.  An actual "can't" doesn't depend on the situation to me.  Can't means "incapable".  Won't means "conscious refusal to do so".  I can accept "won't" if there's a good reason.  Whether or not that reason is good depends on my mood. :)


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RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/18/2009 9:59:55 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

I want substance. So long as I know where Carol's head is at...

We look at it the same way. Except my analytical brain uses tone and body language to discern if the substance is there.


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/18/2009 10:05:08 PM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline 		Of course, this all assumes that there is such a thing as "substance", as distinct from "tone" or "shadow" or "form" or whatever you want to call it.

Remember that we're all just little symbol-processing machines, and all the symbols are things that we're making up as we go along. It's very, very hard to distinguish between "receiving" an indication of substance, and interpreting an indication of substance within the random noise of your perceptions.

Everyone sees what they want to see... 'xcept me, because I'm clinically depressed.

(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/18/2009 10:17:17 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		Can=ability. If someone lacks the ability, it is not within the scope of my power to make them unlack it. LOL. I would expect this to be brought to me in a respectful manner and for my consideration rather than as a predecided fact. Surely, I am not stupid enough to say that something such as the example given didn't matter, but if I am in the dominant position, I still want the final decision to be mine, even if it does concur with what the submissive believes to be his/her limitations.

Will=desire. If someone lacks the desire to please me in the way that I wanted, then it is well within my power to change that. Still, I would expect it to be brought to me in a respectful manner and for my consideration instead of deciding for me. As a matter of fact, in this case, it would be the ONLY way to present such a thing to me. I would then weigh it based on my knowledge of the submissive and determine accordingly. I may determine that it is something I am willing to forego. It may be that I will expect him/her to submit anyway for my pleasure. If my decision is not suitable, they know where the door is. One doesn't just get to obey when it is easy and pleasurable after all.

To me, this is the difference between limitations and limits. Some things just can't be forced and to do so is to be of blatant harm to the other person. Others are artificial walls set up that should fall over time. Some may stand longer than others, possibly permanently, but they are all subject to how I want my architecture structured. If a wall must come down, then down it shall go, but only once I know I have put all the safeguards in place to keep from damaging my valuable property. In all things, there must be responsibility and balance.

lovingpet


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RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/18/2009 10:42:06 PM   
porcelaine


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Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

I'd have SO little patience for beating around the bush.

But damn girl! 100 freakin points. I'm not sure, but I don't think I've ever given a hundred point answer. *applause*


failing to state the comment in the proper manner would lead to a beating of the bush and then some. i'm typically in service to persons that place a high priority on protocol. with specific attention given to speech and tone. if i attempted to speak in that manner i'd get my face slapped off. i may have mental lapses but that's truly cruising for a bruising.

and thankie. i was rubbing shoulders this weekend with some smarties. *nudges and winks*

porcelaine


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His will; my fate.

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RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/18/2009 10:45:56 PM   
porcelaine


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Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

Although, I am willing to admit that the pedant and picky bastard in me may just be preferential to the overt focusing on tone and intent.


you aren't that picky. but then again i have this odd bias for the more exacting types that prove to be difficult and challenging. i might be a masochist in the making.

porcelaine


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His will; my fate.

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 12:41:05 AM   
aldompdx


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Joined: 10/24/2004
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quote:

Original: NihilusZero
This makes no sense.


I understand that it makes no sense to you.
Likewise, surrender without consent makes no sense to me, and has no value to me.
It all depends upon how abusive and violent is one's point of reference. To violate another person's chosen limit of consent is violence.

Consider two lines of relatively equal length drawn on a chalkboard. How do you make one line shorter than the other? The abusive narcissistic controller will make one line longer by erasing part of the other line. The honorable, virtuous, and empathic controller will draw one of the lines longer. (Abbreviated allegory).

Now, don't give me the speech about absolute length. There is no such thing. A straight line is a geometric concept that does not actually exist. Absolute length is a concept that does not actually exist. The circumference of the period on this sentence is infinitely jagged and thus has infinite dimension (science of chaos).

The relative difference between "cannot" and "will not" is primarily a projection of the adjudicator's subjective perspective. E.g., a paraplegic or limbless person CAN climb a tree with a harness, rope, and motorized ascender; a blind person CAN climb Mt. Everest; a disabled person in a wheelchair CAN climb Mt. Rainer; any person CAN consume all-natural and organic Hemlock, if they choose to surrender their life.

I find an abundance of very limited perspective expressed here. The fundemantal question is whether one person has the honor and integrity to respect the limit of consent chosen by another. After that, everybody is just fishing for an excuse or social justification to selfishly act in violence and abuse.

(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 12:41:18 AM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

For me, the end result is not the same because it was never about the activity.


That actually makes perfect sense. It seems to be what most posters here have been driving at, but I'll reply to this one because you managed to get it across in one sentence.

I guess though it leads to a whole other question - is a submissive still considered submissive if s/he has hard limits that are based solely in personal preference?

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 3:51:23 AM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

is a submissive still considered submissive if s/he has hard limits that are based solely in personal preference?



That's where you get into degrees.

Susie yields in nearly every way, placing the dominant's will over her own... except when he tells her to eat her own excrement.

Sandy yields in some ways, but feels her desires are as important as his, if not moreso. Her list of "no" is as long as her leg.

The argument can be made that they are both submissive, to one degree or another. But only the dominant can decide if what they offer is enough, and suitable for them.

To have NO limits, either willingly or not, gets into what I would define as a slave, and I don't see that. Not to step on toes, but that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 3:51:34 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Depending on how you look at it, that person may be a submissive, but they certainly wouldn't be MY submissive.

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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 4:15:42 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

Submissive B, however, only has the refuge of preference and whimsy. How valid those excuses are will certainly vary depending on how strict the authority dynamic is, but I would find any sub whose primary reaction to something is a measuring of whether they would like it rather than whether their dominant partner would like it to be not very exemplary of someone whose purpose is to serve and obey (at which point we're getting into the infamous 'do me' sub realm).



Shows different viewpoints.

I consider Submissive B to be someone smart enough to determine beforehand if there is sufficient compatibility to get into a relationship with Dominant A.

And I don't think that one has to enter into a relationship where you only do stuff you dislike to prove you're submissive.

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Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 4:22:11 AM   
Acer49


Posts: 1434
Joined: 8/7/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Is there really a difference?

Submissive A says "I can't do electroplay, I have a pacemaker."
Submissive B says "I won't do electroplay, it's a complete turnoff."

The end result is no electroplay so why are there so many posts in the vein of "It's okay if s/he can't do it, but if s/he just won't then it's a problem"?


sub a --I have no problem
sub b-- I would strongly suggest you reconsider that statement

The sub does not have to enjoy everything a Master wishes, it is not a requirement. If there is feeling of fear or nevious, the Master must address that and deal with it
Depending on the dynamic I think I would see sub b's statement as blanant disobedience. and there are bigger problems tham just how one feels about a certain play activity. In the past I have had subs who had no interest in an activity I did but were willing to submit. I knew this so I would make it a point to see that within a day or so, they received a reward of some type as a acknowledgement and appreciation for their willingness to please, dispite their lack of interest in the activity, because despite it being a D/s relationship I believe that there must be a fair amount of give and take, otherwise the relationship will more than likely, fail

< Message edited by Acer49 -- 10/19/2009 4:28:36 AM >

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Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
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(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 4:25:45 AM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline 		I gave up my ability to say no when he put the collar around my neck.
I have done things with this man that would have made me puke with anyone else, but I didn't because it was with him and it was what he wanted to do.
I do sometimes have to remind him that I'm not in my twenties, but in my forties and the positions he binds me into won't be able to be sustained for as long as I'd like (fucking creaky shoulders and knees and hips and elbows and wrists and ankles and neck and back....)
But to say no to him....not in our world. I also picked someone who's entire life is a track record of making great decisions. So I'm not too worried about what he decides to do to me at any given point.
Knowing that I have no choice is such a huge turn on for me. Seems to be one for him too.

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 5:09:33 AM   
GabrielleSlave


Posts: 616
Joined: 9/20/2007
From: in servitude
Status: offline 		These two words for me are apt as i am in this place at the moment. There is something that Master wants me to do, but my mind has created a complete mental block for this activity and so i would say at the moment that i can't as opposed to i won't. However, this by default also means that at the moment i won't do this thing.

Because i am His slave, i am working on overcoming this complete inability to comply. i freeze, am so mentally locked up that i physically cannot and therefore will not obey. Does this make me a bad slave? Someone who should be punished? Shown the door? Not in His eyes. He realises how hard this request is for me and also has seen and appreciates the efforts i am making to get over and through this for Him. i want to please Him, this is a given. He makes the choices, i obey. i am obeying in my struggles to push my limits for Him. Note, this was a hard limit for me, but now given time, immense patience and a willingness to wait from my Sir, i am slowly getting there.

i am certain that i will never enjoy doing this activity for Him, but that is not the point. The point is that He should be able to have what He wants from me and i am going to make sure that it happens. He will continue to push me and i will continue to work hard for Him.

So...... can't vs won't. It really is not as black and white as all that....

gabrielle x

_____________________________

Slave to Master Slayer

~ Host of the Rather Marvelous Greenwich Munch ~

"There is no such thing as liberty. You only change one sort of domination for another. All we can do is to choose our master."
D. H. Lawrence

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RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 5:15:08 AM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Is there really a difference?

Submissive A says "I can't do electroplay, I have a pacemaker."
Submissive B says "I won't do electroplay, it's a complete turnoff."

The end result is no electroplay so why are there so many posts in the vein of "It's okay if s/he can't do it, but if s/he just won't then it's a problem"?

Yes, there is a difference; not only in the wording but also in how the two statements are said to another person.

A good example is restraints. I can not be restrained, period, in any way. It pushes me into a killing rage, no matter the reason for the restraints. My late husband liked restrainig girls, but, the first time he tried with me, and saw the reaction, he understood that when I said I could not be restrained, I could not be restrained.

However, I told him once that I would never allow another man to fuck me. It was said in the middle of an argument; I had said something to another man that he caught. It was was said in a flirtatious manner. Now, he knew that I would never have even attemtpted to fuck this man, yet, in the midst of the argument, I made the statement that another man would never fuck me. Two days later, another man fucked me while he watched.

It had nothing to do with actually not wanting to do something and everything to do with the tone of my voice when I said it. I was challenging him. He took up the challenge.

*shrug*

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RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 5:49:08 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Is there really a difference?

Submissive A says "I can't do electroplay, I have a pacemaker."
Submissive B says "I won't do electroplay, it's a complete turnoff."

The end result is no electroplay so why are there so many posts in the vein of "It's okay if s/he can't do it, but if s/he just won't then it's a problem"?


Yes there is a difference. That difference lays in the meaning of each word
  1. Can't ~ Can Not = I am not able to do this or be involved in this at this time (Usually followed by an explanation of the reason/s why).
  2. Won't ~ Will Not = I will not do this or be involved in this.

Both are definitive statements but the Can't allows that it may happen under different circumstances. The Can't I can live with providing there is a reasonable explanation where is the won't is something needing to be addressed (assuming that the person is in either a house collar or my personal collar) and can be a deal breaker depending on the circumstances ans attitude of the person.

Just my views and will differ from others possibly.


_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 5:50:59 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

To have NO limits, either willingly or not, gets into what I would define as a slave, and I don't see that. Not to step on toes, but that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.


which brings up an interesting point. we debate the validity of someone electing to forsake their limits in deference to the dominant. some believe this is impossible to do. which baffles my noggin'. the news is filled with things we'd never do that someone else has demonstrated through their actions can occur. yet those oddities aren't debated. we accept that person is different, nuts, eccentric, or whatever adjective you wish to affix.

perhaps a better statement might be that it isn't something i'm willing to do or inflict. just a thought.

porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 5:57:39 AM   
GabrielleSlave


Posts: 616
Joined: 9/20/2007
From: in servitude
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
Yes there is a difference. That difference lays in the meaning of each word
  1. Can't ~ Can Not = I am not able to do this or be involved in this at this time (Usually followed by an explanation of the reason/s why).
  2. Won't ~ Will Not = I will not do this or be involved in this.

Both are definitive statements but the Can't allows that it may happen under different circumstances.


In my case the can't is the reason why i won't be able to do that activity; the two statements follow on from eachother. Neither in my mind necessarily mean i will never do this activity. i did not come into slavery with Master to fail to obey.

The two phrases are open to interpretation by the Master concerned. i suppose i am lucky to be owned by One who is using His own judgement and interpretation. That way, He will get what He wants; i will obey.


_____________________________

Slave to Master Slayer

~ Host of the Rather Marvelous Greenwich Munch ~

"There is no such thing as liberty. You only change one sort of domination for another. All we can do is to choose our master."
D. H. Lawrence

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/19/2009 6:00:55 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Agreed an oversight of mine when I posted. I should have pointed out that some won'ts are due to can' ts. It boils down to a good explanation though. 

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to GabrielleSlave)
Profile   Post #: 40
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