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RE: Nick Griffin - torn to shreds on QT? - 10/26/2009 9:29:33 AM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

their voters should be denied democratic rights you might as well be campaigning for them.

Wrong again. I said they didn't deserve to vote: it's a moral judgement on their ignorance, nowhere do I suggest they shouldn't be allowed to vote. Your emotional investment in this thread is making you blind.

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RE: Nick Griffin - torn to shreds on QT? - 10/26/2009 9:35:20 AM

Starbuck09

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Yes you said in your opinion they should'nt be allowed to vote. Again don't post your convictions if you do not have the courage of them. My emotional investment is calling you on your disgusting slander of me. Don't bleat now Kitten you posted it not me. Everyone desreves the right to vote that's the point of a democracy it doesn't matter what viewpoint they hold. If you don't have the intellectuual capacity to debate it then democracy is dead.

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RE: Nick Griffin - torn to shreds on QT? - 10/26/2009 9:42:38 AM

kittinSol

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You're infuriated because I shan't indulge with you in your moral relativism, admit it.

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RE: Nick Griffin - torn to shreds on QT? - 10/26/2009 9:45:05 AM

Starbuck09

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No i'm infuriated because you didn't like me pointing out that the methods you use to combat the B.N.P. simply empowers them and that a different tactic is needed. That riled you and so you deliberately misrepresented one of my posts by cutting out a piece of a sentence and then claiming I was racist. Since then you have been displaying intellectual cowardice by back pedalling and claiming you did no such thing. If you do not have the courage of your convictions do not post them.

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RE: Nick Griffin - torn to shreds on QT? - 10/26/2009 9:52:28 AM

kittinSol

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Absolutely not: I have no idea whether you're a racist or not. I don't know you. I do know what you posted, however, which is that you consider voting for a party of thugs and criminals and of self-confessed racists and antisemites. You're pissed off because I pointed out that fact alone and questioned what it meant about your ideas. Which, incidentally, remain strangely cryptic, as you continue arguing in circles about complete nonsense. In the meantime, you're frothing at the mouth against me, but you have no reason to, since you are so upstanding in your beliefs. Right?

Good luck :-) .

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RE: Nick Griffin - torn to shreds on QT? - 10/26/2009 9:58:06 AM

Starbuck09

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Do you mind if I give you a word of advice? You should be honest with yourself. Embrace the BNP if you want, but own it. You're being intellectually dishonest right now, and it shows.

Because, without their racist policies, what is it about the BNP that would motivate you to vote for them? I think you're just too ashamed to admit the full truth about what motivates you.

You seem to be quite clear about how you consider to be rascist. Instead of being an intellectual coward would you quote what I actually said about my position on voting for the B.N.P.? I am quite prepared to quote what you said to me I wonder why you won't quote my own posts? Is it because they say nothing like what you are accusing me of? What ideas of mine seem strangely cryptic? The idea that in a democracy reason will carry the day and igmnoring a political party instead of debating their policies will hand them votes. That is straightforward I have said it constantly. What else would you like to know you only have to ask...that works better then guessing.

I'm not frothing at the mouth i'm angry at your disgusting slur, the strength of my beliefs does not affect that. That is one of the lowest forms of debating fire of a degrading repellant insult and then castigate the response.

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RE: Nick Griffin - torn to shreds on QT? - 10/26/2009 10:05:53 AM

Starbuck09

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Though I am off for dinner now so I will get back to you later just ask about my ideas, there is nothing cryptic about them.

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RE: Nick Griffin - torn to shreds on QT? - 10/27/2009 5:36:04 AM

RCdc

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Just to make things clear - it is not Darcy posting - it is .dark. We would appriciate it that you recognised the difference. Thank you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

Do you mind if I give you a word of advice? You should be honest with yourself. Embrace the BNP if you want, but own it. You're being intellectually dishonest right now, and it shows.

Because, without their racist policies, what is it about the BNP that would motivate you to vote for them? I think you're just too ashamed to admit the full truth about what motivates you.

quote:

There Darcy racism is implied overtly there.

Well, I do not see it so it's purely subjective. However the point was made in that, on what it is about the BNP that would make you consider voting for them?

This is exactly what I also asked, which you have not responded to in full.
Do you really want to see all schools with faith led assemblies? That no doctors or nurses (unless in extremme cases) be allowed to study or be taught outside the UK? Art funding messed around with and art doctored - that only what they deem as art - will gain funding? Can you imagine the implications on that - I can, I am an artist myself.

quote:

I feel fully justified in defending myself from such nauseating comments.

Just as much as I feel justified in finding your support of BNP policies nauseating. And I don't have a need to defend it - it just is. The BNP are as about as anti democratic as you can get - so if you are all for democracy and allowing them or other parties a platform - just like I am - how can you possible consider that someday, you could vote for them?
Had you said - if they became a party of democracy, instead of saying, if they dropped their racist views, then I could understand it - but the rest of their policies are xenophbic and antidemocratic.

quote:

Once again I am only responding to what is said to me Darcy. I don't vote for Labour but their are plenty of their policies that I agree with.

Yet you have not responded to my questions on their policies that I listed. Most parties have a selection of policies that are either simlilar or that resonate with an individual. But policies do not stand alone. You have to look deeper on how a party are going to put these policies into effect - that is what matters.

quote:

Because I am secure in my beliefs I am able to look at the B.N.P. objectively and see what I percieve as good and what I condemn as bad. In the case of that particualr party the bad outweighs the good which is why I do not vote for them as I made explicity clear.

So let me get this clear - as I do not wish to be accused of twisting peoples words or taking them out of context. You are comfortable with the non democratic way that the BNP are happy to place their policies that you agree with into fruition - so long as there is no racist undertone?
Your quote -

quote:

I would however consider voting for the B.N.P. if I could be convinced that they would leave behind their rascist policies.

quote:

I consider their efforts to abolish multi culturalism as part and parcel of their racist agendas Darcy,

And the other issues?

quote:

with regards to anti faith I agree with the abolition of faith schools no more.

Can I ask - did you alter your idea in a few hours or what changed your mind? When you clearly stated -

quote:

I believe the abolition of faith schools is an excellent idea.

So which one is it you believe in - just so I do not misunderstand. Thanks in advance.

quote:

I feel it is important to point out what I said here. I don't support the B.N.P. I have made that quite clear. I simply pointed out that not all their policies are demnted and dismissing them as such is an extremely poor political move.

I get that you do not support them - however I am disturbed that you could consider them should their racist agendas be dropped.

the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 10/27/2009 5:39:39 AM >

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RE: Nick Griffin - torn to shreds on QT? - 10/27/2009 6:11:11 AM

Aneirin

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The trouble with any group, be it political or other, if they were founded on distasteful policies, no matter if the official line, in this case with the BNP, their racist views are dropped for political expediancy, there will always be racism within the party, as people if they feel passionately about something, they will keep it to themselves. With that kind of history, would you want to give your support, which the vote is, to such a person .

The other thing of course, is political parties, when they get hold of power, political parties with their power, change their policies to suit themselves, take New Labour for example, what it is/was compared to the Labour of old. Now say the BNP became respectable, they dropped their racist, sexist, homophobic and other minority views and got into government of this country, who is to say they will not revert to their old policies, who is there to stop them doing so, as government, they are the controlling body of this country.

BNP if they become respectable, I would treat them as a wolf in sheep's clothing, very much like any other political party I guess, but, that's me.

< Message edited by Aneirin -- 10/27/2009 6:14:23 AM >

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RE: Nick Griffin - torn to shreds on QT? - 10/27/2009 7:18:19 AM

Moonhead

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The BNP have already cleaned up their act and revamped themselves, though: they used to be the National Front. THis is about as respectable as they're going to get.

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RE: Nick Griffin - torn to shreds on QT? - 10/27/2009 7:28:01 AM

Aneirin

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Aah, National front, that lot, I remember them well from my childhood, the N coinciding with the F in the NF logo spray painted onto walls, alongside the symbol for anarchy. Then there were the artists of such graffiti, the skinheads donning green bomber jacket, tight jeans and bovver boots, everyone feared, for their hatred was metered out on whoever happened to be there at the time. Looking back, it was interesting that we had such a large detachment of these skinheads in our village, perhaps it is they felt safe there, as there were no ethnic minorities living there when I was a kid.

To attack the different, the weak the old and the alone with skinhead, 'put the boot in' rabid dog pack mentality shows them for what they are, if they now colonise the ranks of the BNP, let people decide what they want, but remember once a thug, always a thug.

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RE: Nick Griffin - torn to shreds on QT? - 10/27/2009 7:34:43 AM

Starbuck09

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My apologies Dark I did not realise it was you.

Out of interest did you read my post where this began? I listed four policies I think the B.N.P. have that I agree with. I was making the point that not all of their policies are demented and that they should be debated as such. To not do so is to give those who support them for these policies sufficent reason to discount the opposition. I EXPLICITLY stated three times in that post that not only do I not support the B.N.P. I do not vote for them nor would I unless there were substantial changes to the party.

How do you not see that I was called racist. KittenSol explicity ststed that the B.N.P. was a racist party therefore any approval of any policies is simply thinly disguised racism. That is not subjective that is simply what she posted. I listed four policies that I agree with not to demonstrate my support but to illustrate that they are a party with a wide array of policies and should be treated as such to not do so is a fatal mistake. You find my support of B.N.P. policies misleading? That is deeply misleading I do not support B.N.P. policies I support four B.N.P. policies. There are a myriad of liberal and labour policies I support not all of them however and not the parties themselves. My point throughout this thread is that the methods used to combat the B.N.P. have been appalingly ineefective they have in fact vastly increased their support. When I pointed out that they have policies that are attractive it is to illustrate that failing to engage them like every other party means that they can present their more mainstream policies to voters which makes them appealing and when they are condemned for being extremist it makes the opposition look foolish. There are a myriad of reasons I would not vote for the B.N.P. cheif amoung them their definition of what does and does not constitute a British citizen. That I did not list every reason I consider them an invalid choice does not mean I am ignorant of them Dark, I was attempting to demonstrate why it is dangerous to simply write them off as extremists. I'll state it again I WOULD consider voting for the B.N.P. they have some policies they like. However unless there were substantial changes in the party manifesto I would not ass I stated explicitly Dark. Do you find the idea of increased spending on defence or the institution of civil service nauseating? I don't its what surrounds those policies that I find repellant and frankly I think I made that perfectly clear.

I disagree with you that the abolition of faith schools is anti faith. I support their abolition because I believe they are divisive and an obstacle to multi culturalism. Dark. So there's no understanding i'll state it again I believe in the abolition of all faith schools.

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RE: Nick Griffin - torn to shreds on QT? - 10/27/2009 7:44:16 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Aah, National front, that lot, I remember them well from my childhood, the N coinciding with the F in the NF logo spray painted onto walls, alongside the symbol for anarchy. Then there were the artists of such graffiti, the skinheads donning green bomber jacket, tight jeans and bovver boots, everyone feared, for their hatred was metered out on whoever happened to be there at the time. Looking back, it was interesting that we had such a large detachment of these skinheads in our village, perhaps it is they felt safe there, as there were no ethnic minorities living there when I was a kid.

To attack the different, the weak the old and the alone with skinhead, 'put the boot in' rabid dog pack mentality shows them for what they are, if they now colonise the ranks of the BNP, let people decide what they want, but remember once a thug, always a thug.

Do a picture search for Griffin on Google: there's a few photos of the berk back in the day sporting a white power t shirt.

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RE: Nick Griffin - torn to shreds on QT? - 10/27/2009 8:03:49 AM

RCdc

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quote:

My apologies Dark I did not realise it was you.

Thank you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09
You find my support of B.N.P. policies misleading?

I did not say that at all.

quote:

That is deeply misleading I do not support B.N.P. policies I support four B.N.P. policies.

I will again repeat - nowhere did I say or suggest that you were misleading anywhere - not sure where you got that from.
I will also state that I have not suggested that you support the BNP.

I have stated that I find anyone who would consider supporting the BNP should they become non racist, disturbing and nauseating.

quote:

There are a myriad of liberal and labour policies I support not all of them however and not the parties themselves. My point throughout this thread is that the methods used to combat the B.N.P. have been appalingly ineefective they have in fact vastly increased their support. When I pointed out that they have policies that are attractive it is to illustrate that failing to engage them like every other party means that they can present their more mainstream policies to voters which makes them appealing and when they are condemned for being extremist it makes the opposition look foolish. There are a myriad of reasons I would not vote for the B.N.P. cheif amoung them their definition of what does and does not constitute a British citizen. That I did not list every reason I consider them an invalid choice does not mean I am ignorant of them Dark, I was attempting to demonstrate why it is dangerous to simply write them off as extremists.

I do not believe it is wrong to list them as an extremist group. As I have stated, I believe that they have the right to voice their agendas freely - that is what democracy is all about for me. What I do disagree with is that they be considered in any way democratic - which is what they claim in their manifesto.

quote:

I'll state it again I WOULD consider voting for the B.N.P. they have some policies they like. However unless there were substantial changes in the party manifesto I would not ass I stated explicitly Dark. Do you find the idea of increased spending on defence or the institution of civil service nauseating? I don't its what surrounds those policies that I find repellant and frankly I think I made that perfectly clear.

Exactly - what they have surrounding their 'attractive' policies is what is at issue. Instituting civil service is a good thing - but not at the expense of the abolishon of multiculturism. We can have both running side by side 'in an ideal world'.
But four policies, does not a good government make. You have not answered my question about the arts. Or the healthcare issue. Or faith in schools. How can you or anyone else - justify the removal of faith led schools and in the same breath - support worship led assemblies?

quote:

I disagree with you that the abolition of faith schools is anti faith. I support their abolition because I believe they are divisive and an obstacle to multi culturalism. Dark. So there's no understanding i'll state it again I believe in the abolition of all faith schools.

Same question as above. How can one justify a party, willing to remove faith schools, yet have in their manifesto that all schools will contain assembies with worship?

I am not trying to hound you starbuck - but this is about the BNP and you did state you would consider voting for them based on four policies. And in this arena - as you believe it is dangerous to just pass them off as extremists - I believe it is important in that case to debate not only their racist view as it was on QT (which I found highly disappointing) - but on their other policies as well.

the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 10/27/2009 8:05:43 AM >

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RE: Nick Griffin - torn to shreds on QT? - 10/27/2009 8:27:42 AM

Starbuck09

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I'm sorry I meant nauseating I don't know why I put misleading brain scramble.

Why would you find considering voting for the B>N.P. nauseating if they were a radicaly different party?

I don't believe the B.N.P. are democratic either. I also consider them extremist. The point I was making is that it's no good simply labelling them as extremist as they present their moderate policies to their electorate and the opposition then looks too stupid to debate their sensible policies. The only way to discredit them is to debate them on an even level and point out the flaws in their manifesto. Treating them as extremists plays into their hands it hands them votes.

I don't understand your third paragraph Dark that is what I have been saying for the past five pages. I don't support the B.N.P. They have policies I like...four. That's why I don't support or vote for them because I intensely dislike all their other policies. I've stated that over ten times now. I know four policies doesn't make a good government...which was the point I was making and explains why I on't support them. I really don't understand this is what I have been saying all along.

I find their ideas for the arts absurd I did say that when I said the B.N.P. would have to be non racist for me to get their vote I was using a shorthand for all their policies I disagree with. It was easier than listin them all that's all. I explicitly pointed out the elements I agreed with precisely so there would be no confusion.

I don't support worship led assemblies Dark I don't support any elements of faith in school. That is not because I am anti faith but because I believe religion in school is devisive and harmful and presents barriers to integration and multi culturalism.

Yeat again Dark that is why I don't support them. That is why I don't justify the party. I really don't understand Dark. I listed what I found good. Not to show my support but to point out that they have a face [the B.N.P.] that is not extremist. And this is the face they present to their electoral pool. Unless their policies are debated [which is why I was debating with Kitten in the first place as she believes they shouldn't be] then it appears to their electorate that their party is being victimised..after all look how reasonable they are it works better for them than any amount of screen time.

Dark you have completely misunderstood what I said in that post I would never considering voting for the B.N.P. because of those four policies. My point was [and I stand by it] that if the B.N.P. were not racist and less extreme [as a bisexual I don't like their stance on sexuality] I WOULD consider voting for them. I don't apologise for that they have policies I like but the point is that I wouldnt and don't now as they are to me repugnant in this iteration. Not everyone sees that though. Despite the mainstream parties saying the B.N.P. support will collapse in on itself I disagree. I think the B.N.P. core support comes from those left behind by labour when they gained power. New labour thought they would have no choice [the working class under educated] but to follow them to the middle...but they found a different path. This isn't a fad in my opinion it's not going to go away and the methods used so far only strengthen the B.N.P.'s hand.

To illustrate my point in another way. There are plent of policies the Nazi party enshrined that I think are/were thoroughly good ideas. That doesn't mean I do or would support them though. On the contrary I would do everythg in my power to stop them. But not all their policies were foul in my opinion some made good sense and if the Nazi party had not been anti semetic considered disabled children a waste e.t.c. I would have considered supporting them. Now there are thousands of ideas the Nazi's had that I disagree with just because I didn't list them all doesn't mean I support those. It was the same with my post about supporting the B.N.P. Dark.

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RE: Nick Griffin - torn to shreds on QT? - 10/27/2009 9:05:58 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

I don't believe the B.N.P. are democratic either. I also consider them extremist. The point I was making is that it's no good simply labelling them as extremist as they present their moderate policies to their electorate and the opposition then looks too stupid to debate their sensible policies. The only way to discredit them is to debate them on an even level and point out the flaws in their manifesto. Treating them as extremists plays into their hands it hands them votes.

It's news to me that they have any policies at all: the whole Question Time thing made that pretty obvious, I'd have thought.

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RE: Nick Griffin - torn to shreds on QT? - 10/27/2009 9:09:52 AM

Starbuck09

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Which is precisely why the Question time episode was an utter disaster. They have plenty of policies. None were debated. Therefore those who loathe the B.N.P. were affirmed in their opinion whereas those who support them or are waivering simply saw the B.N.P. unfairly treated. Convincing those who despise the B.N.P. not to vote for them is pointless. What is needed is to convince those who do not view them that way and the farce of that debate [I have never seen a representative of a political party treated in such a manner on that show] will absolutely not do that. Like all of the attempts to combat the B.N.P. so far this was pitiful, embarrasing and terribly damaging.

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RE: Nick Griffin - torn to shreds on QT? - 10/27/2009 9:10:36 AM

RCdc

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quote:

Dark you have completely misunderstood what I said in that post I would never considering voting for the B.N.P. because of those four policies. My point was [and I stand by it] that if the B.N.P. were not racist and less extreme [as a bisexual I don't like their stance on sexuality] I WOULD consider voting for them. I don't apologise for that they have policies I like but the point is that I wouldnt and don't now as they are to me repugnant in this iteration.

I did not misunderstand you starbuck - you answered honestly and that is cool. But surely you can understand just how shocked people might be that you might even consider them in the future? Its like saying you might consider joining the KKK if they were not racist ? Surely you can understand the impact that such a statement can make? I have tried to not take your words out of context -

quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09
To illustrate my point in another way. There are plent of policies the Nazi party enshrined that I think are/were thoroughly good ideas. That doesn't mean I do or would support them though. On the contrary I would do everythg in my power to stop them. But not all their policies were foul in my opinion some made good sense and if the Nazi party had not been anti semetic considered disabled children a waste e.t.c. I would have considered supporting them. Now there are thousands of ideas the Nazi's had that I disagree with just because I didn't list them all doesn't mean I support those. It was the same with my post about supporting the B.N.P. Dark.

The thing with that comparrison starbuck is that people did consider hitler to be voted for. And he came into power based on the way he got across his policies and the propaganda. Not unlike the BNP.
Again - it's not the policies - it's the way they are instigated and the people who are in the party.

Some of Hitlers policies we great, I dont deny that. And he did pull germany out the shit a bit - but at the expense of peoples lives.

And that is what I find disturbing - that people can consider any non democratic party as having their potential vote - regardless of their policies.

the.dark.

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RE: Nick Griffin - torn to shreds on QT? - 10/27/2009 9:23:32 AM

Starbuck09

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I can understand that it may seem shocking Dark but i'll always evaluate a party on it's merits. If the B.N.P. demonstrated to me that they had changed significantly then I would not discount them out of hand simply because of their past. In the same way that I wouldn't simply discount New labour because of their roots in the Labour party [obviously that's a less extreme example]. If the K.K.K. suddenly renounced racism embraced all races and instituted a policy of public spending fiscal responsibility e.t.c. i'd consider them as well. The problem with the B.N.P. is that obviously their roots were in the national front and domestic terrorism. But they've changed cannily because they realised that to gain power they had to change their methods. In the same vein therefore the methods for combating them have to change as well and that's a lesson that too few have learnt...to our cost.

Absolutely I agree Dark but the Nazi party made no bones about it's anti semitism and ideas on race. I believe that while it's zenith/nadir during the second world war could not have been predicted by Germany the type of party they were voting for was never in doubt. Hitler was always Hitler...which is why i'd never vote for Nick Griffin. I agree with you about people but a party is just a party. If it changes i'll judge that change with an open mind. I would only consider voting for the B.N.P. if they could demonstrate that they were no longer antidemocratic.

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RE: Nick Griffin - torn to shreds on QT? - 10/27/2009 10:50:45 AM

RCdc

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