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RE: Am I too shy for this? - 10/28/2009 9:45:53 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		All she talked about was sex, so I was viewing it as needing encouragement to cross the long term prohibitions about hitting your partner. And most people don't feel totally comfortable with a new activity the first time they try it. Can you remember the first time you swung a golf club? Hitting it through the air and then looking down to see you missed the ball, and doing that over and over every week you went out to the driving range. It takes quite a while before it feels natural, not awkward. So it is normal enough for it to be a lot more awkward when you want your partner to enjoy the activity but you aren't getting her to that point. Which is why it helps if the sub is encouraging, gives positive reinforcement.

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RE: Am I too shy for this? - 10/29/2009 5:26:32 AM   
PainfullyCurious


Posts: 157
Joined: 10/26/2009
Status: offline 		DesFIP, I think I already answered most of your questions in my reply to DarkSteven, between pages 1 and 2 of this thread. To recap, I'm pasting the relevant points below:

<<<<I got him to the point where he has no problems giving me a few swats on the behind because he can see how much it turns me on, and he does get turned on while doing it. He stops and rubs constantly. After almost 3 years, last month, I was able to tell him that I'd rather he didn't stop. In the past he has said he feels bad for me and that his hand hurts. I got him to use a ping pong paddle once or twice but the only thing he really liked about it was that it didn't make his hand hurt and he only gave me maybe 5 swats with it before he wanted to stop. He never takes it out of the drawer on his own. >>>

<<<I don't think there is any way in the world he would understand how I want him to keep going, how I want him to bring me to tears and not flinch, and why I think that's OK. I'm not sure myself why I want that, or why I think that's OK. That makes it hard to explain to someone else. >>>
 
<<<I don't want to push him to do anything that makes him uncomfortable anymore than I want to keep being bored with our kind of intimacy. Putting so much work into trying to get him to take the lead is kind-of against my nature. It's not a turn-on to see him have to try so hard. I know what it's like to have to try to get turned on by something that's less-then what you really want. I've been doing it my whole life. I don't see how making him into the one who bites-his-tongue will make our relationship any better. >>>

In short, yes I have more than given him permission and I have broken down that wall and convinced him it's OK to hit me because it's what I want. I did most of the things that you suggested, using positive reinforcement and telling him it turns me on. So, no I never expected him to "magically graduate" into anything. I put a lot of energy into it. I think you're way out of line to say I'm afraid to tell him the truth and that I'm being "cowardly".

We hit a point where he quite obviously does not want to go any further. I have told him what I fantasize about. He confided in me that he too fantasizes about having someone who takes control. If he read a bdsm book, he might even identify himself as a sub who isn't into pain for pain for pleasure. I've waived the bait in front of him and he didn't bite. So you think I'm a coward and that my next course of action should be to cram it down his throat. You think it's dishonest not to. I don't think it's honest to try and make people feel guilty for not being what I want them to be. I don't see a need to push it.

You are right though- I am convinced that he will pity me. I know he will reject what I want. Aramis's perception is correct. I don't want someone who needs to be trained and I am attracted to men who take the reins in all aspects of their life. I'm not only talking about kinky sex. I know him well enough to know he's not dominant at all. So when you say that you think I owe it to him to be blunt about the matter, I say I disagree. It's not just that I'd like to avoid the rejection. (You are correct about that though. I have no desire to hear him tell me what I already know.) I'm wrestling with whether or not I'm too shy for this lifestyle. How will it be good for me?  I sit down and tell him face-to-face that I want to be with a dominant. I explain what it is. He gets uncomfortable.
How is it good for him? So there he is uncomfortable and here I am dangling our relationship over his head and letting him know that i'll be breaking up with him if he doesn't start acting like a dom. That's not healthy honesty. That's manipulative.

I think that healthy honestly would be letting him know that I don't think we're a good match because I prefer someone who is bold, someone who takes more risks. I also think there are tons of women who will prefer a man who aims to please, knows how to compromise and prefers a calm, routine life. Most people yearn for that kind of stability. I'm part of the minority. I don't want him to change a thing about himself. I think the only thing he needs to change is who he chooses to be with. To me it's not responsible to say anything that comes to mind just because it's true. That's not how I define honesty and that's not how I communicate with people I care about. I think of the effect my words are going to have. I have no desire to tell him anything that is going to make him feel unsure of himself just because my opinion is that we may no longer be a good fit for one another. I have no desire to tell him anything that's going to make him go out into the world and act like a jerk to the next woman he dates. I'm not sheltering him. There's nothing that he needs to do to improve himself going forward.  

Like I said, if he was doing something that was going to make him less likely to meet the right person (like not showering) I do agree I would owe it to him to be blunt. I don't see anything like that about our current situation.

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RE: Am I too shy for this? - 10/29/2009 5:33:21 AM   
PainfullyCurious


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Status: offline 		Moving on, I am still intrigued by our different perspectives. DesFIP, is it fair for me to say that you associate being blunt with being honest? Do you think the two always need to go together?

I'm curious to hear different perspectives.
Does being honest mean that you have to be blunt?
Do you think being honest makes it OK to impose your opinion/desires on someone else? Even when the effect might be that they will try to be someone they are not just to please you?

and going back a few posts... Do you think that in vanilla relationships, you should disclose everything that crosses your mind, even when you know it will leave you vulnerable and you're partner will not be receptive? Do you think D/s relationships are different?

I guess what I'm most curious about is, do most doms expect you to do that, to expose everything and leave yourself completely vulnerable to them?

I'm not saying I'm against it. That would be a new level of intimacy for me. I'm curious.

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RE: Am I too shy for this? - 10/29/2009 5:35:17 AM   
MasterAramis


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quote:

I don't want someone who needs to be trained and I am attracted to men who take the reins in all aspects of their life.


I kind of thought this was the case. I know I said it before but good luck to you as well as him.

Aramis

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RE: Am I too shy for this? - 10/29/2009 5:38:38 AM   
MasterAramis


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quote:

I guess what I'm most curious about is, do most doms expect you to do that, to expose everything and leave yourself completely vulnerable to them?


Missed this one, but in the right relationship, Yes, to the extent that one can.

Aramis

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RE: Am I too shy for this? - 10/29/2009 6:38:04 AM   
DesFIP


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From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		You hadn;t mentioned the fact that he would like to bottom. It is relevant.
We give advice based on what you explicitly say. When you don't mention things, of course our advice will be unhelpful.

So you still have the same choice. Stay with a guy who doesn;'t do it for you, a guy you won't open up to and reveal your authentic self. Or tell him goodbye and then go look for someone else.

And yes, in a good relationship of any kind your partner will want you to be vulnerable and open. And to be able to be vulnerable and open to you in return. Because living with a wall up for protection is the same as living with a wall up jailing you, you're still trapped inside.

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RE: Am I too shy for this? - 10/29/2009 6:38:16 AM   
PainfullyCurious


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Status: offline 		Hmm...
So then, do you/most doms do something specific to encourage that?
(I've seen men who think they are entitled to know everything going on their partners life just because- without trying to create a dynamic where their partner wants to tell them everything. I think there's a big difference.) 

I know when I want someone to trust me with information that they could easily chose to keep private, I listen. I don't judge, I don't flinch and I'm hesitant to criticize. It's not the easiest thing to do. It takes a lot of self-control. I aknowledge each dom may have a different method, but do you think that most dominants make an effort?

Do you think that being a dom means you have a knack for establishing trust? Or do you think that skill varies among doms just as much as it does any other subset of men?

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RE: Am I too shy for this? - 10/29/2009 6:46:51 AM   
PainfullyCurious


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Status: offline 		You're right. I probably should have mentioned that earlier. It is relevant.

The vulnerability thing would be a challenge for me. I could see how it could be the cornerstone of a healthy relationship. It's something I would have to work at if it was expected, but I see how it would be rewarding. I've always been of the perspective that walls are there for protection. I'm glad you got me thinking about it.

How long did it take you to let your walls down?

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RE: Am I too shy for this? - 10/29/2009 7:59:26 AM   
MasterAramis


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From: Connecticut
Status: offline 		All great questions and you actually answered what most do in your second paragraph. Being trustworthy is no different for us than those of the vanilla ilk, it's all the same.

I will say this, though, it really depends on the man. My slave was owned before. He really wanted one thing from her and I will leave that to your imagination, he was not interested in much else so he really didn't care too much about the other aspects that make a Master / slave relationship truly work. So he was never really able to get her where SHE needed to go. Pitty for him too, as she is far more capable today than she was in the past. All it really took was time and patience. Something in all honest, I don't have much of, but I thought she was worth the effort so I stuck with it. I am nearly bald now, but I have a wonderful slave in exchange for a few less strands of hair!

Once that trust, that emotional connection in there - it's like a light bulb going off. Things become much more clearer and in focus.

Aramis



< Message edited by MasterAramis -- 10/29/2009 8:00:37 AM >

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RE: Am I too shy for this? - 10/29/2009 12:26:52 PM   
alittleevil


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PainfullyCurious
I guess what I'm most curious about is, do most doms expect you to do that, to expose everything and leave yourself completely vulnerable to them?

I'm not saying I'm against it. That would be a new level of intimacy for me. I'm curious.


Hello there,

Many, yes. In theory. Whether they can create the sort of emotional environment that allows it to happen is another story entirely.

It is a whole new level of intimacy. For some, that's even a drive behind dominance or submission: thriving on and reveling in that degree of intimacy.  In a D/s  dynamic, your mind and emotions are part of what they own (you) and some dominants really dig that. For others it is more a means to an end: taking away someone's privacy of mind is like taking away their privacy of body, each is a step along the road to mastering/dominating another person.

Being emotionally vulnerable is an area in which i don't excel. Or, rather, i excel at it too well--i am too sensitive and easily hurt, so i have learned to be reserved, thus reducing the chances my vulnerability can cause me hurt. Now, i have accepted/embraced that i will suffer emotional hurt in my relationship. It doesn't seem to be intentional on Master's part (i.e. he's not an emotional sadist), but it is simply a factor of who he is and how he does things and my getting my feelings hurt is not a deterrent to his goal of having his will done. He sees that as my choice: i can get my feelings hurt or i can skip that part and simply accept.  However, now that i've said that i don't think his seeming disregard of my feelings is intentional, i do also know that one of his goals for me is to make me stronger and more emotionally resilient (some days i couldn't tell you if he is succeeding or not!). So, it is probably a mixture of intentional and incidental, but, the point here is that he seems to be doing what he feels best to achieve a goal he has in mind. This sounds really cold, i know, so let me assure that a few moments of hurt feelings on my part here and there is worth belonging to him.

Now, i'm hoping i haven't frightened you...seriously.  Obviously, i speak of things from one particular end of the D/s Bell curve, with one particular Master. You're just putting all this together for yourself and it's a time i remember. I truly wish you well.

peace,
aj


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RE: Am I too shy for this? - 10/30/2009 3:02:29 AM   
RavenMuse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PainfullyCurious
-I notice most dominants say they will take care of their subs. I have a career. Would I be expected to give it up?  As a matter of fact, I work in HR and you can see why I would want to keep things discreet. Is that a problem? Does a master expect more than that?


Wrong question. you will find that it is pointless to ask 'does a Master....' about anything.... because in 99% of cases some will, some won't.

You need to work out what works for you and find a Master who is compatible with that. Look for one that works the way you need, don't find one that doesn't and expect Him to change to accommodate you, He won't.... unless He isn't actually a Dominant in the first place.

I take care of My girl, as in I manage her life in her best interests. That includes steering her career in a positive direction. As for 'discreet', I don't hide what I am, but nor do I feel any need to shout it from the rooftops. That is discreet enough for most situations.... other Masters may feel the need to keep everything tightly hidden behind closed doors.... that's Their choice

quote:

-In line with being discreet, I’m not comfortable with the idea of posting my pic, having pictures taken or being seen in public less than fully dressed. Is that a turn-off?


For Me, I'd see that as stemming from lack of confidence. Posting pics is more understandable if you could be recognised as online anyone could be viewing.... But having pics taken.... No girl of Mine is going to avoid that... I'm a damn photographer (Hobby now but made a living from at one point) suck it up buttercup. Being in public... dress (or undress) style is entirely contextual, either the girl trusts My judgement and experience or she doesn't.... if she doesn't then she ain't going to last long with Me.

Other Masters work differently.

quote:

-I’m into men and I’m not sexually attracted to women at all. Is it unrealistic to expect one-on-one interactions (or at least interactions without other women present)?


With Me that would only ever be a playpartner, no girl like that would be compatable for being Owned by Me. However there are many Mono Masters out there, We ain't all Poly.

quote:

-I notice that some profiles fail to comment on this at all, but the ones that do comment on the subject of children all seem to say that they are out of the question. Is that common? I’m not sure if I can, or want to, have children but I am curios if this is a trend or just specific to the profiles that I happened to look at today.


I've produced all the kids I am willing to. A girl of Mine getting bit by the biological clock best ask for release because it ain't happening here.


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This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

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RE: Am I too shy for this? - 10/30/2009 10:17:14 AM   
PainfullyCurious


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Joined: 10/26/2009
Status: offline 		I don't think I'm scared yet. Would you mind giving me an example of a time when your feeling got hurt? Was the decision that he made truly better for of you in his mind? Or does he think that it's OK to make decisions that are best only for him and you should just be happy about it?

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RE: Am I too shy for this? - 10/30/2009 10:23:57 AM   
PainfullyCurious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse


For Me, I'd see that as stemming from lack of confidence. Posting pics is more understandable if you could be recognised as online anyone could be viewing.... But having pics taken.... No girl of Mine is going to avoid that...



You are probably right about that. I'm not thrilled with my body these days and even when I used to get a lot of compliments on it, I never really saw myself that way. It's a trust thing too. What happens to these pics if things don't work out?

When and if the day ever comes that I am proud of my body, then I'll be able to know if I'm really modest or if I was just lacking confidence. Maybe i'll love to have pics taken. Do you believe that everyone who doesnt want to be photograhped is lacking confidence?

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RE: Am I too shy for this? - 10/30/2009 11:42:30 AM   
Lucienne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PainfullyCurious
You are probably right about that. I'm not thrilled with my body these days and even when I used to get a lot of compliments on it, I never really saw myself that way. It's a trust thing too. What happens to these pics if things don't work out?


Things could be working beautifully and the pics could still fall into the wrong hands. In the digital age, I'm not letting anyone take a picture of me that I don't want published.

quote:

When and if the day ever comes that I am proud of my body, then I'll be able to know if I'm really modest or if I was just lacking confidence. Maybe i'll love to have pics taken. Do you believe that everyone who doesnt want to be photograhped is lacking confidence?


I don't think being "proud" of your body is necessarily the best goal. Try to be comfortable with and accepting of your body. Attaining this level of comfort with and acceptance of my form has, for me, been one of the greatest gifts of aging. I don't mean to discourage you from exercising, or whatever. I just think you'll be happier if your exercise is motivated by a desire to be healthy or wanting to perform certain physical acts, rather than obtaining a specific shape or visual image.

I am also a very modest dresser. I was even more modest in my younger, skinnier days. Part of it was lack of confidence, but not entirely due to lack of confidence in my attractiveness. I lacked confidence in my ability to deal with the objectification and sexualization that frequently follows from dressing in a more revealing or flattering fashion. For me, modesty in physical dress is very much a control issue. As I've matured, I've become more comfortable with displaying the charms of my body to the public at large, but I still spend a great deal of time in men's pants and baggy hoodies.

Along the same lines, nude photographs... hard limit. Just... no. I decide who gets to see me naked, and I can't control that with nude pics. And it most certainly is not due to lack of confidence. I'm perfectly happy to flounce around naked. I very much enjoy it. But it's something that I share with a specific person at a specific time and not something I care to share with the world.

ETA: As to the general question, are you too shy for this, you come across as very emotionally intelligent and honest. I think these traits are far more important for finding happiness than being outgoing (or whatever the opposite of shy is). I'd say your prospects are better than many of the people around here.


< Message edited by Lucienne -- 10/30/2009 11:46:26 AM >

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RE: Am I too shy for this? - 10/30/2009 12:11:00 PM   
PainfullyCurious


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Joined: 10/26/2009
Status: offline 		Thank You Lucienne-
I agree with just about everything you've said. You make a good point about not trying to be proud of my body, but rather work towards a different goal. As much as I was hating the way I looked for the last few months, it wasn't until I went to the doctor and he explained that I was on the cusp, that as I get older I could be putting myself in danger of some serious health issues if I dont change my habits, that I actually started to try a lot harder. Before that I would go into this cycle where I wanted to look better, but thinking about how I looked now made me feel sad, not motivated and while I had made some changes, they weren't really enough. Thinking about my health has allowed me to side-step that vicious little cycle.
I'm glad you've become more comfortable with displaying the "charms of your body". I like the way you put that. Well said-

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RE: Am I too shy for this? - 10/30/2009 12:27:28 PM   
Lucienne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PainfullyCurious
Thinking about my health has allowed me to side-step that vicious little cycle.


Good for you. Keep up the good work. :)

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RE: Am I too shy for this? - 10/30/2009 12:29:21 PM   
alittleevil


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PainfullyCurious

I don't think I'm scared yet. Would you mind giving me an example of a time when your feeling got hurt? Was the decision that he made truly better for of you in his mind? Or does he think that it's OK to make decisions that are best only for him and you should just be happy about it?


Hello,

Maybe "hurt feelings" isn't quite right. That implies something a little different than i mean, now that i think about it.

Sometimes he does make decisions  that are best only for him (or his interests or preferences about a matter), but that are not harmful to me. He has never made a decision that was harmful to me. Uncomfortable for me, yes. Not to my preferences, yes. But he's the Boss. (I, on the other hand, have made many decisions that were harmful to myself, but that is a whole 'nother issue.) He doesn't expect i should be "happy" about it, necessarily, but he does expect me to accept and abide by them.  He doesn't go out of his way to hurt my feelings, but if i am unhappy about something--not necessarily him or his actions-- he doesn't rush to reassure me, or even comfort me and this can be  hurtful, because hey, who doesn't like comfort and reassurance from time to time. I might have thoughts like "he doesn't care about me" or "he's a big old meanie", but this is just his way of operating and if i want to go the self-pity route, he isn't obligated to well, oblige me.

Examples...okay, a recent one: Sometimes i get overwhelmed by being in large stores. It seems to be a hormonal thing, but my anxiety flies through the roof and i become very uncomfortable, very edgy, and impatient. Get done and get out is my agenda if i am on my own. If he is with me in the store at one of these times and is in a browsy mood, i am expected to be patient and attentive and pleasant. He's not unaware of how i feel, and his intent is not to be mean, but he does expect that it will not interfere with what he wants to do. And i don't get a pat on the head for being so accommodating, no matter what i think i'm due <g>. Obedience and acquiescence to his wants (in this case, to leisurely shop) are simply expected of me at this point. On good days, i can derive much comfort from that alone, breathe correctly and put myself in another frame of mind. On other days, not so much. I am responsible for finding my own peace. But my state of mind is irrelevant to his basic expectations.

Now, in the beginning, there were many small things that i was denied or things i was made to do , that he did simply for the sake of "because I can." It wasn't so much that he cared over much about all of these things in and of themselves, it was just a necessary exercise of control. Some of these things he cares not at all about now, because the point has already been made. But in the beginning, it was often frustrating, sometimes hurtful (We aren't used to "It doesn't matter what you want!", as a rule), but it served its purpose.

Best to you,
aj


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RE: Am I too shy for this? - 10/30/2009 12:40:30 PM   
alittleevil


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quote:

Lucienne:  ETA: As to the general question, are you too shy for this, you come across as very emotionally intelligent and honest. I think these traits are far more important for finding happiness than being outgoing (or whatever the opposite of shy is). I'd say your prospects are better than many of the people around here.


I'd like to second this.  Your inhibitions do not in any way limit you from from finding, engaging in and enjoying BDSM or a D/s dynamic.  If anything, if you stick to being honest and open with yourself and others, they will help you weed out those who aren't worth talking to in the first place.  A good "dominant" is a good person, first and foremost. A good person is going to understand that you are unique and "all submissives" are not obligated to perform x,y,z for them right out of the gate; a good dominant is going to be quite aware that if he wants you to do x,y or z, he can help overcome your inhibitions as they pertain to what he wants and so won't waste time chattering away about you not being a "good submissive" because you have them.

Peace,
aj


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RE: Am I too shy for this? - 10/30/2009 12:56:35 PM   
PainfullyCurious


Posts: 157
Joined: 10/26/2009
Status: offline 		I know what you mean about shopping. Sometimes on the weekends I wish I had a machete so I could just cut my way through the crowd...
Something I've noticed is that sometimes when someone's need for reassurance or comfort is met nearly all of the time, it feels good, and so wanting to feel good, our need grows and we actually become less assured and less comfortable because it becomes impossible for that person to constantly meet the need.
In a case like that you wind up with more hurt feelings in the long run. I don't know him from a hole in the wall, but from what you describe, it sounds like he has your best interests at heart even when it hurts a little.

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RE: Am I too shy for this? - 10/31/2009 2:36:48 AM   
RavenMuse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PainfullyCurious
What happens to these pics if things don't work out?


That's down to trust. If the trust is well placed then there is nothing to worry about. If the person isn't worth that trust then you have problems.

quote:

Do you believe that everyone who doesn't want to be photograhped is lacking confidence?


It depends what KIND of photo's, but just photo's in general... then yes. Body image issues are endemic in today's society. I'd say 90%+ of the people I know have body image issues to some extent, that % is higher in Females than in Males, but even in Males it is there.

I'm a very confident person in most regards and I don't have any issue enough to cause a problem, however even I, when I look in the mirror don't see whatever it is that My girl finds physically attractive. Doesn't bother Me in the slightest though as I know that isn't where My value to the relationship comes from, that comes from WHO I am not what I look like.

Personally, being a photographer, when dealing with a girl who is badly effected with that issue.... I use taking photos as a tool. Given time I can get damn good photo's of anyone.... faced with an array of photos that wouldn't look out of place next to any models portfolio, the girl finds it difficult to deny they can and do scrub up well... a good point from which to work on improving that body image.


< Message edited by RavenMuse -- 10/31/2009 2:41:04 AM >

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This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

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