RE: coming to terms with a false accusation

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SassyBird -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 4:23:24 AM)
Everything someone hears or sees they see with tainted eyes. Tainted by their own experiences from the past. We can assume that he is right because he is the dominant half. We can assume she is right because we identify with her situation and feel she is wronged. I just dont think anyone knows enough about the situation, the "manipulation", his and her experiences in life to say anything that helps, so I stick with my initial line. I hope that it in its vague simplicity inspires you lucylucy.

ranja -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 4:50:50 AM)
it entirely depends what the argument is about... did you have no part at all in the situation ? in that case you were not manipulating anything and you are falsely accused. or is your part in the situation misunderstood by him? maybe you were manipulating with good intentions, but he did not like it or do you not understand how your behaviour looks in his eyes? unless you had no part in the situation at all... you have been manipulating, which is not necesarily a bad thing... like he is manipulating you to be quiet now .... people manipulate eachother all the time simply by being themselves, by flirting by accusing, by pushing eachothers buttons... is this still about wanting to know what happened with the other woman?

slaveluci -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 5:55:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lucylucy How do you mentally adjust to giving up on setting the record straight? I wouldn't be able to. Cali said: "I'm one of those that can't come to terms with it. Not believing me is calling my integrity into question. It's something very important to me." I totally agree with this. If Master doesn't know me well enough by now to know that I wouldn't lie to, deceive or manipulate Him, then what is there to say? If He can't believe the words that are coming out of my mouth, what is the point of either of us staying in the relationship? I am always saying how important (no, absolutely vital) it is to me to be heard. If I am feeling upset about something, I NEED Him to hear me out. What I say may or may not influence the final outcome/His decision, but it helps me 1,000% to know that He has heard my point of view and considered it. If He were to tell me He felt I manipulated something and no amount of explanation could help Him understand that I'd NEVER do that, then what's the point of continuing on? As Cali said, it boils down to calling one's "integrity" into question and I simply won't have that. Especially not from the Man I love more than anything..............luci

barelynangel -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 6:14:12 AM)
FAST REPLY --- manipulation is a concept of perception on the part of the person who is observing it. I agree that you may not even realize why it is manipulation or why he sees it as such, you simply want to prove yourself right. And yes that is what you are trying to do. For those who are saying well i can't be with someone who doesn't trust me, where is your understanding of the other sides belief that THIS DID occur, or is it simply all about you. YOU who feels HE should be the one to believe you when you don't believe HIM? This is what i see a lot in the concept of many submissives, they feel that the Dom is the one who must always capitulate because well gee you don't believe you did what he says you did. But the fact of the matter is HE DOES. But i guess that doesn't matter because only your feelings count and your belief you are right and he must accept same or your relationship is over --- that belief and automatch reaction beause your feelings are hurt to me makes me believe that on many levels he is probably RIGHT in believing you in fact manipulated. When i read responses from subs on this type of thread many times it seems that the fully believe THEIR feelings are more valid than the doms, that they can't even stop for a minute and think wait a minute, if i am this adamate that i didn't do what he believes but he really believes i did. Instead it amazes me how many subs use manipulation against the dom to get what they want -- if you don't believe me, trust me, i am outta here. ANd i bet most who use it don't realize what they are using is manipulation and the arrogant belief that they are right and he is wrong for his beliefs. I am sure many who just read this went in there head --- no that's not it, but in the end it is. It really is that simple. This concept takes communication so BOTH SIDES not just the DOM side comes to the understanding of what the other believes and just because you demand his trust doesn't mean you haven't inadvertently broke his. angel

starshineowned -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 6:51:58 AM)
Greetings.. I can not say that I truly openly and deliberately try to manipulate Master but I also know that I have a strong aggressive personality that tends to keep me pushing my points till I feel the other understands what I'm saying the way I am intending. Master is a great catcher of when I'm doing this and lets me know but quick. Doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong or I feel he is just not understanding ..it is the end. I trust him to know me, and yes better than I know myself because I have grown and ingrained many negative traits through life that I try to accept and pass off as "just me" as if that were a green light to make it okay. I trust his judgement and trust that he is seeing things that aren't acceptable to him, and trust that he will do what he feels is best to correct such. The best I could suggest is take the cool down time..approach and seek out how he arrived at that decision so your aware of what he is seeing, and ask for help in changing it. Not sure how it works in your dynamic but I was told from the get go..there is no democracy here. starshine

kyraofMists -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 7:16:03 AM)
This is how it works in our house... Our perception is not reality. My perception of the events may not be accurate and his perception of the events may not be accurate. It doesn't make either of us right or wrong. In our family we don't really deal with who is right or wrong, because we are all on the same side of any issue. We do what is best for the relationship and creating an advesarial situation where we are on opposite sides of an issue is not constructive for our relationship. In our house, he has complete authority over Alandra and I. If he perceives behavior that is unacceptable to him, and requires us to change that behavior, then we will change our behavior. We may express that it was not our intention to manipulate (or whatever it is he perceives that we have done) and what behavior does he want in the future so that he no longer perceives we are doing that. That is the perk of having complete authority. He gets to define what is acceptable and what isn't. It doesn't matter if we intended to do what he perceives that we have done; all that matters is that he doesn't like the behavior, so we do not do the behavior again in the future. Knight's Kyra

LaTigresse -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 7:32:35 AM)
I am sooooooo glad others gave MUCH better answers than I did, pre coffee!

Eigenaar -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 7:45:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lucylucy Let’s say you’re having a heated discussion or argument with your D type in which he says things he believes to be true about you but are not—for example, he believes you’ve manipulated a situation but you, in fact, have not. It becomes clear that no amount of explanation from you will dissuade him from his belief... I wonder what there is to explain when there is nothing to explain. According to you he has delusions.

Eigenaar -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 7:53:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero quote: ORIGINAL: wandersalone NZ in your suggestion of a response wouldn't she then be disobeying the dominant's order that the topic be dropped Upon rereading, yes, you're right. Being told not to bring it up again does kind of make the situation difficult. I suppose my suggestion would have to wait until she is able to discuss the issue again. quote: ORIGINAL: wandersalone and isn't the apology in fact a form of manipulation in that she would be again stating her belief that she wasn't manipulating? If she was manipulative but in denial or ignorant of it, does it change things? I think the whole issue entirely missed the point that she had acted in a way that displeased him and should have been seeking ways in which to fix it so the same interpretations wouldn't be made again. Where do you read she acted in a way that displeased him and where is she in denial or ignorant of being manipulative?

Drifa -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 10:23:29 AM)
You say, "I'm sorry, but we will have to agree to disagree here. I don't think your characterization of this incident is accurate, and I stand by what I have said, but I see I am not going to convince you. Therefore, let's drop the topic." Then drop it.

DesFIP -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 10:46:47 AM)
Drifa, could you? You wouldn't find yourself thinking in the future that it didn't matter what the truth is because they're going to choose to think the worst of you anyway? You wouldn't be defensive with no reason because you would be expecting to be called a liar again and not allowed to tell your side of it? Because I couldn't. I wouldn't be able to be open and vulnerable if he had already said he had concluded I was manipulative, lying , deceitful. I'd withdraw emotionally so I couldn't be hurt again. It would put a damper on my libido. Basically it would poison the relationship. If you had a boss like this, you'd start looking for a new job during lunch hour. If it was a family member, you wouldn't want to see them that often. Knowing that someone you love thinks the worst of you will poison your love for them.

curiousINct -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 11:41:52 AM)
lucy - I just read your journal entry..if there were a few things that were part of the disagreement and you recognized one of them as being true, it may just take some time on both of your parts to see the rest clearly. quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero The base denominator here is that he found what she did manipulative. Ergo, it is. This. Using the example of manipulation in the OP, it isn't the same thing as having integrity called into question - being a liar, etc. A few weeks ago, I was told I was 'playing games' - which pissed me off and caused me to silently stew for a few days. Was I? In my eyes - no. But the reality and what matters is that he thought I was. Solution: don't do it again. There isn't any point in going around in circles 'was not' 'were too' 'was not'... If it was something like being called a liar, and there was no convincing otherwise - I wouldn't be able to stay.

LafayetteLady -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 11:55:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Drifa, could you? You wouldn't find yourself thinking in the future that it didn't matter what the truth is because they're Knowing that someone you love thinks the worst of you will poison your love for them. I think this may be the crux of the differences in the answers. For many, even though they are M/s, D/s, etc., they are also involved in a loving relationship, a partnership and commitment to each other. Others, they view it purely as something where one leads, one follows and there isn't emotion involved. When the only purpose of the "relationship" is for one to lead and the other to follow blindly, it's very easy to say "H/She says so, so that's what it is." For those of us who are in loving relationships, it is NEVER that simple. As DesFIP says, when someone you love thinks poorly of you....you don't simply reconcile your emotions with "well that's how he viewed it, so I just have to accept it." It's an oxymoron to say someone unknowingly manipulates a situation. The very nature of manipulating something indicates you know you are doing it. I don't want to hear all the bullshit nonsense about sub/slaves being bratty to get their way, often that is being done specifically for the purpose of getting your attention, so it is not unknowingly. So for anyone to say that someone is "unknowingly manipulating" a situation is basically looking for an excuse for why they weren't doing what they should have been doing in the first place. As I said in my first response, if you are unable to change his thinking, you either accept that or you don't. If you stay, know that it is likely to happen again, REGARDLESS of your behavior. It's your decision as to whether you want to deal with this type of situation again.

sunshinemiss -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 12:02:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Drifa, could you? You wouldn't find yourself thinking in the future that it didn't matter what the truth is because they're going to choose to think the worst of you anyway? You wouldn't be defensive with no reason because you would be expecting to be called a liar again and not allowed to tell your side of it? Amen. TO THE OP: However, there are other factors at work in any relationship. His history and personal idiosyncracies, yours. He may be right. You may have been manipulative without realizing it. The bottom line though is that he is displeased with your behavior. If he is the M / D - type, and you are the s-type, then the bottom line is that he runs the show. Or does he? You seem hurt by the word "manipulative". What would happen if another word were used? Like... cunning? That'd be ugly. Or confused? That's pretty neutral. Or frightened? That's another good one. The question is this - is his reaction realistic based on your behaviors? Or is it a reaction to his own history and quirks? Or some combination thereof? We all manipulate. We just do. It's part of our nature. Smiling at someone and giving them positive feedback so they will repeat the behavior is just as manipulative as punishing someone. We just don't generally call it manipulation. As for his thinking badly of you. My grandma once told me that if someone thinks you are pregnant, and you aren't, it will become pretty clear in a matter of months. Same is true here. Don't be surprised thought if you find yourself in the position Celeste has mentioned above. If you are, take good care of yourself. Well wishes, sunshine

NihilusZero -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 12:12:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveluci As Cali said, it boils down to calling one's "integrity" into question and I simply won't have that. This isn't the case when it comes to subjective/interpretative issues. There are verifiable acts that either do or do not happen. If has said that she did specific acts which she did not, then there would be a trust problem, yes. "Manipulation" doesn't work that way because it's an evaluation of a set of actions: "the act(s) you did construct a situation that spells out manipulation to me". This isn't about integrity, it's about misunderstanding. It's about her realizing that being the submissive in a relationship normally means that you are yielding interpretative topics unto the dominant partner (unless it was understood that it wasn't the case with that facet). Now, it's entirely possible he framed things in a manner that makes it easier to take it as an affront (saying "You were being manipulative" instead of "the things you did were manipulative"), but this is still a matter of interpretation. If he says "you haven't been loving towards me lately" and she demands that she has, she's missing the point: that his interpretation of what acts would constitute "loving" were not being done even if she thought the ones she was doing were indicative of it. So, OP...did he specifically say you had done a certain act that you didn't or do you just disagree with how he sees the acts that you did do?

NihilusZero -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 12:13:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss We all manipulate. We just do. It's part of our nature. Smiling at someone and giving them positive feedback so they will repeat the behavior is just as manipulative as punishing someone. We just don't generally call it manipulation. 20 Points.

Eigenaar -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 1:01:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss You may have been manipulative without realizing it. The bottom line though is that he is displeased with your behavior. You seem hurt by the word "manipulative". What would happen if another word were used? Like... cunning? That'd be ugly. Or confused? That's pretty neutral. Or frightened? That's another good one. We all manipulate. We just do. It's part of our nature. She says she did not manipulate and based the post on this. You come with assumptions and state the bottom line is he is displeased with her behaviour. This information can not be found in her post, however. Her post says she did not behave in a way that justifies his behaviour. It does not say she harmed his dog and will suffer the consequences. Nor does it question we all manipulate.

SoquilisGirl -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 2:00:56 PM)
Yup. Same answer here. From what you've told us, OP, he sounds completely unreasonable and I would not want to be in a relationship with someone who thought I was a liar. SG quote: ORIGINAL: winterlight If it were me i would be ok.. bye... If he didn't believe me now what about later when something else pops up? That is just me..

howahkan -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 2:43:43 PM)
Please keep in mind that this is "FREE ADVICE". The best part about free advice is you can take it or leave it. Since I don't know you or the issue at hand the biggest question is, "Is this a deal breaker for you?". Is it so important for you to be right? Are you are willing to end your relationship over this issue? If your answer is yes then be honest with him and tell him so. It has been my experience that many people with dominant personalities MUST be right even when they are wrong. Proving you are right and he is wrong can cause permanent damage to your relationship. Win the battle, lose the war. My favorite saying, "In a relationship you can be happy OR you can be right, seldom can you be both.". lucylucy - "How do you mentally adjust to giving up on setting the record straight?" The hardest part of being submissive is sacrifice. Giving in to your Dom/me's demands and wishes without argument is something I have learned to deal with but it's never been easy for me to deal with. It is the part of the scene I have the most trouble with and it took years for me to come to terms with it. Like I said, I don't know you or your Dom. Are you sure this is not a test? Is your willingness to submit being tested? You will have to answer these questions for yourself. If you're in a safe relationship with someone who truly cares about you, have patients and it will all work out. If this is a deal breaker for you then you have no choice but to leave because you can count on it happening again. SassyBird - "Everything someone hears or sees they see with tainted eyes. Tainted by their own experiences from the past." I have never heard a statement more true. lucylucy - You should take this statement to heart when you read my post...

whiteslavebitch -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 2:53:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero "Manipulation", among plenty of other malleable things, is a topic of interpretation. Unless otherwise specified, the point in a D/s relationship is that the D's interpretation wins tiebreakers. Unless you want to call into question the entire relationship (and/or his entire character), this isn't about you being right or wrong. This is about you having done something which displeased him. What I would look for in a response? "I sincerely apologize that I have acted in a way that would suggest to you that I was being manipulative. I'd like to respectfully take one last moment to honestly express to you that I had no genuine intention of manipulation in my actions....but the fact that I have displeased you is what is more important and I'd very much like to request of you to, when you decide it's appropriate, offer me a means by which I can demonstrate to you my honest intentions when it comes to you, me, and our relationship." [sm=applause.gif][sm=agree.gif]

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