RE: coming to terms with a false accusation

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barelynangel -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 2:59:07 PM)
I have a question for people who are so willing to end a relationship or allow something like this (which really is a misunderstanding and lack of compromise on both parts to make the effort to see what the other is perhaps perceiving of the cause of this issue) to cause them to melt the relationship down. How is your ultimatum of you don't trust me i am outta here -- which isn't necessarily the case, not manipulation on your part and if you are willing to manipulate him, the situation, your relationship, it in this instance, why would it be such a stretch for you to manipulate either directly or indirectly what he is upset about? Also, how are YOUR feelings of oh wow he doesn't trust me, calling in question my integrity come first or override HIS feelings of lost of trust and suspicion etc based on his belief of manipulation coming first. It seems a lot of subs like their feelings it seems to be the ONLY feelings that matter and they are willing to end a relationship due to some misunderstanding INSTEAD of working through BOTH of your feelings to a mutually agreeable solution or conclusion that may take more than ONE heated conversation. Aren't your Dom's allowed to get angry or feel hurt or yes, perhaps even manipulated or are your relationships really all about you? You may say that isn't what i was saying but yeah, it is. By taking your toys and issuing the ultimatum EVEN IN YOUR HEAD of he doesn't trust me, he questions my integrity etc etc and allowing it to fester into it effecting your relationship as a whole and YOU KNOW this will occur and you do nothing to counteract it, its manipulation and if you are capable of it with regard to this circumstance -- how do you really know he wasn't seeing something YOU are refusing too? AND you taking something HE is upset about and turning it around and making it all about you being upset. I just don't get it. I have considered these posts that i am referring to all day trying to see some other way other than what i have stated as to my perception of your words regarding your relationship and i can't see any other way but that you are the one who matters, you make it all about you, the Dom has no room to be upset about something, and that many of you are so willing to ditch the relationship that it makes me wonder what type of trust you have IN THE RELATIONSHIP and EACH OTHER as a whole to get through something like this. And i can tell you this much based on watching posts from people, if the GUY said he would allow the relationship to end or his trust would be so compromised he couldn't be her dom or have a melt down the relationship or even HINT at an ultimatum, you all would jump down his throat with your barefeet and overhanging toenails making him the bad guy. So why is it okay for you the sub to be so casual? angel

RCdc -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 3:14:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SoquilisGirl Yup. Same answer here. From what you've told us, OP, he sounds completely unreasonable and I would not want to be in a relationship with someone who thought I was a liar. SG Seriously? What is so unreasonable about someone asking their partner to stop going over the same thing over and over again? Everyones concentrating on the whole ' my dom calls me a liar' thing. That isn't in the post. What he did was tell her he felt she was manipulating sometimes and she doesn't get it/see it and wanting some sort of justification for his thoughts keeps bugging him with it instead of dropping it and learning from the experience. And he is the unreasonable one?[8\|] the.dark.

RCdc -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 3:17:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel I have a question for people who are so willing to end a relationship or allow something like this (which really is a misunderstanding and lack of compromise on both parts to make the effort to see what the other is perhaps perceiving of the cause of this issue) to cause them to melt the relationship down. And i can tell you this much based on watching posts from people, if the GUY said he would allow the relationship to end or his trust would be so compromised he couldn't be her dom or have a melt down the relationship or even HINT at an ultimatum, you all would jump down his throat with your barefeet and overhanging toenails making him the bad guy. So why is it okay for you the sub to be so casual? angel Because people dig the easier option... it means they have to type less. the.dark.

lucylucy -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 3:59:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero quote: ORIGINAL: slaveluci As Cali said, it boils down to calling one's "integrity" into question and I simply won't have that. This isn't the case when it comes to subjective/interpretative issues. There are verifiable acts that either do or do not happen. If has said that she did specific acts which she did not, then there would be a trust problem, yes. "Manipulation" doesn't work that way because it's an evaluation of a set of actions: "the act(s) you did construct a situation that spells out manipulation to me". This isn't about integrity, it's about misunderstanding. It's about her realizing that being the submissive in a relationship normally means that you are yielding interpretative topics unto the dominant partner (unless it was understood that it wasn't the case with that facet). Now, it's entirely possible he framed things in a manner that makes it easier to take it as an affront (saying "You were being manipulative" instead of "the things you did were manipulative"), but this is still a matter of interpretation. If he says "you haven't been loving towards me lately" and she demands that she has, she's missing the point: that his interpretation of what acts would constitute "loving" were not being done even if she thought the ones she was doing were indicative of it. So, OP...did he specifically say you had done a certain act that you didn't or do you just disagree with how he sees the acts that you did do? We agree I did something. He believes I did it with three facts in mind, and if that were true, yes it would have been very manipulative. But the truth is, I didn't have ANY of those facts. I didn't have any clue about them, and this IS verifiable.

Drifa -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 3:59:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Drifa, could you? Absolutely. If the other person refuses to hear you, there is just nothing at all you can do to change that. I've found that a lot of times the refusal to hear, however, has to do with the heat level of the disagreement. Getting to the ice-cold rational position of "We must agree to disagree" then dropping the argument and refusing to fight may in fact force the other person to stop being an ass and reassess their position. quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP You wouldn't find yourself thinking in the future that it didn't matter what the truth is because they're going to choose to think the worst of you anyway? If the other person has made up their mind and is not listening to my arguments to the contrary, it's both counterproductive and upsetting to keep the argument going. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP You wouldn't be defensive with no reason because you would be expecting to be called a liar again and not allowed to tell your side of it? I don't get defensive. Defensive is all about the defensive person trying to dodge blame. In a situation like this, I don't agree that there is blame to accept OR dodge. Just a partner acting like a blue-assed baboon thumping its chest and roaring instead of listening and thinking. You can't control someone else's beliefs. If they have made up their mind and insist on acting like a fool, well, you can't help them. quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Because I couldn't. I wouldn't be able to be open and vulnerable if he had already said he had concluded I was manipulative, lying , deceitful. I'd withdraw emotionally so I couldn't be hurt again. It would put a damper on my libido. Basically it would poison the relationship. If this was an isolated incident of spouse being an idiot, then for the sake of the overall relationship I walk away from a pointless argument. Chances are REALLY good that in a day or two when things have calmed down that I will get a sheepish apology and an explanation of what else was going on in her head to cause her to act like an idjit. However, if this kind of delusional-based accusatory behavior was going on extensively over time and my partner quit listening to me on more than an occasional isolated issue, eventually I'd either require her to join me in couples' counseling with a kink-friendly counselor, or I'd have to leave the relationship. ANY relationship has to have open and honest communication. Kink relationships need it even more than vanilla ones do. If that communication stops happening, it would indeed kill the relationship. I really think the OP needs to try and turn off all the emotion - this issue is so highly charged for her and probably her partner that neither of them can be rational about it at the moment. Agree to disagree, walk away from the argument. When tempers have cooled and everyone has had time to consider things, I think that viewpoints may change. As for the damper on libido, being female in a D/s TPE relationship, whether I have a libido or not isn't really an issue to the dominance-submission dynamic. If my Lady demands sexual service, I can certainly provide it with a high degree of skill whether or not I want any. And if she wants to indulge her sadistic desires, while being aroused makes it more fun for me, there are some activities she likes that I never find sexual or fun -- caning being a big one -- the issue isn't sex, it's submission.

lucylucy -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 4:14:10 PM)
Thanks, everyone, for your thoughtful comments. The first few posters who recommended that I take some time to calm down before doing anything were spot on. Today I don’t feel the same urgency about the situation, which has allowed me to think more clearly about it. I am still absolutely convinced that he is wrong in his assessment that I manipulated the situation, however. quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero I would just see that as honesty. What I suspect became the problem is that her desire to adhere to being not-guilty completely washed away the point that she is in a relationship where she (presumably) has chosen him to be the arbiter of what is and isn't guilty. Obviously, there was a miscue in the 'compatibility of interpretation' department. "Manipulation" is one of those non-verifiable things. If she was manipulative but in denial or ignorant of it, does it change things? I think the whole issue entirely missed the point that she had acted in a way that displeased him and should have been seeking ways in which to fix it so the same interpretations wouldn't be made again. I think this is good advice; I’m trying to figure out how to apply it to this particular situation. quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP I'd have to ask him how I was to continue a relationship with someone who doesn't believe what I say, and who assumes I'm a liar? And that personally, I don't see a way to. Because if he's withdrawn all trust in me, then I am going to do the same. He hasn’t withdrawn all trust, but it is so hard to swallow that he thinks I would 1) manipulate a situation and then 2) lie about it. It does make me feel less willing to be open with him, which is a big problem for obvious reasons. It’s the kind of problem that becomes more and more of an issue as time goes by, which is why I really want to resolve it now, despite his saying that discussion of it is over. quote: ORIGINAL: ranja it entirely depends what the argument is about... did you have no part at all in the situation ? in that case you were not manipulating anything and you are falsely accused. or is your part in the situation misunderstood by him? maybe you were manipulating with good intentions, but he did not like it or do you not understand how your behaviour looks in his eyes? unless you had no part in the situation at all... you have been manipulating, which is not necesarily a bad thing... like he is manipulating you to be quiet now .... people manipulate eachother all the time simply by being themselves, by flirting by accusing, by pushing eachothers buttons... is this still about wanting to know what happened with the other woman? I don’t think it’s fair to see that I WAS manipulating unless I had no part in the situation. I did have a part in the situation. As I said in a previous post, I did do something, but whether I did it with knowledge of a few facts or without is what makes the difference between manipulation and not-manipulation. (And no, this isn’t about wanting to know what happened with the other woman.) quote: ORIGINAL: Drifa You say, "I'm sorry, but we will have to agree to disagree here. I don't think your characterization of this incident is accurate, and I stand by what I have said, but I see I am not going to convince you. Therefore, let's drop the topic." Then drop it. This is very sound advice. I’m not sure if I can do it, but I can see why it would be smart for me to do it. quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP I wouldn't be able to be open and vulnerable if he had already said he had concluded I was manipulative, lying , deceitful. I'd withdraw emotionally so I couldn't be hurt again. It would put a damper on my libido. Basically it would poison the relationship. Yeah, it’s that openness and vulnerability that is the casualty. Someone (sorry, can’t remember who) in this thread commented on the baggage of previous relationships. In this particular situation, I suspect I’m being held responsible for a former partner’s manipulative behavior. But suspecting that doesn’t make it one bit easier for me to just let it go.

Eigenaar -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 4:37:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: whiteslavebitch quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero "Manipulation", among plenty of other malleable things, is a topic of interpretation. Unless otherwise specified, the point in a D/s relationship is that the D's interpretation wins tiebreakers. Unless you want to call into question the entire relationship (and/or his entire character), this isn't about you being right or wrong. This is about you having done something which displeased him. What I would look for in a response? "I sincerely apologize that I have acted in a way that would suggest to you that I was being manipulative. I'd like to respectfully take one last moment to honestly express to you that I had no genuine intention of manipulation in my actions....but the fact that I have displeased you is what is more important and I'd very much like to request of you to, when you decide it's appropriate, offer me a means by which I can demonstrate to you my honest intentions when it comes to you, me, and our relationship." [sm=applause.gif][sm=agree.gif] You can not agree because the original post does not say the D is displeased.

Eigenaar -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 4:56:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark quote: ORIGINAL: SoquilisGirl Yup. Same answer here. From what you've told us, OP, he sounds completely unreasonable and I would not want to be in a relationship with someone who thought I was a liar. SG Seriously? What is so unreasonable about someone asking their partner to stop going over the same thing over and over again? Everyones concentrating on the whole ' my dom calls me a liar' thing. That isn't in the post. What he did was tell her he felt she was manipulating sometimes and she doesn't get it/see it and wanting some sort of justification for his thoughts keeps bugging him with it instead of dropping it and learning from the experience. And he is the unreasonable one?[8\|] the.dark. The original post says she did not instigate his inconsistent behaviour, so yes he is unreasonable. It is all you have. You are prejudiced.

frazzle -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 5:05:25 PM)
I do not manipulate. If i feel i need something, i ask for it, sometimes even get what i say i need. To be told i was manipulating!!!! Id agree with the OP. He'd be calling me a liar because he misinterpreted something. Then to not be allowed to explain that misinterpretation!!! There are deeper problems going on.

DesFIP -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 5:34:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lucylucy Yeah, it’s that openness and vulnerability that is the casualty. Someone (sorry, can’t remember who) in this thread commented on the baggage of previous relationships. In this particular situation, I suspect I’m being held responsible for a former partner’s manipulative behavior. But suspecting that doesn’t make it one bit easier for me to just let it go. I guess all you can do now is hope he calms down and is willing to reopen the subject. And ask him if he cares about you being open and vulnerable or is he fine just getting what he wants without any more info into you. Whether or not you can have a relationship where you are closed off from him is up to you.

lucylucy -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 5:46:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark quote: ORIGINAL: SoquilisGirl Yup. Same answer here. From what you've told us, OP, he sounds completely unreasonable and I would not want to be in a relationship with someone who thought I was a liar. SG Seriously? What is so unreasonable about someone asking their partner to stop going over the same thing over and over again? Everyones concentrating on the whole ' my dom calls me a liar' thing. That isn't in the post. What he did was tell her he felt she was manipulating sometimes and she doesn't get it/see it and wanting some sort of justification for his thoughts keeps bugging him with it instead of dropping it and learning from the experience. And he is the unreasonable one?[8\|] the.dark. Actually, he didn't say he felt my behavior was manipulative sometimes. He accused me of being manipulative ONE time. He did not tell me to stop bringing it up over and over again. He told me the ONE discussion we had about it was over. I have no idea where you got the part about me bugging him over and over. Seriously--did you even read my original post?

lucylucy -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 5:50:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP I guess all you can do now is hope he calms down and is willing to reopen the subject. And ask him if he cares about you being open and vulnerable or is he fine just getting what he wants without any more info into you. Whether or not you can have a relationship where you are closed off from him is up to you. Thanks, DesFIP. We did both calm down and had a very reasonable discussion about it tonight (THANK YOU to those of you who advised waiting to cool down before bringing it up again).

NihilusZero -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 6:09:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lucylucy We agree I did something. He believes I did it with three facts in mind, and if that were true, yes it would have been very manipulative. But the truth is, I didn't have ANY of those facts. I didn't have any clue about them, and this IS verifiable. Then that is a starting point. It would seem that a number of slips led to this big problem. His framing of the displeasure in a way that was more accusatory of you than the acts. Your emotional reaction to feeling attacked. The combination of both things not leading to an apology that he felt was sufficiently honest enough and his reaction, based on that, to feel ill motivated to grant leeway when his feeling hurt got turned around on him rather than addressed in a "how do we fix this?" way. When you say you didn't have "any of those facts", what does that mean? I realize you can't fully disclose the details, but are any of those "facts" things that can be objectively determined? As in, it's not really objectively provable that, let's say, someone didn't know I detest X music band before they got me their CD as a gift. If you are able to acquire evidence that you didn't have these facts in a very tangible way, I'd suggest gathering them together for when you approach him about it next time. I would suggest, though, that you determine your feelings about him and the direction you wish to go beforehand. You will have to determine if his conclusion of the events was one that, even if it's a mistake, is one that can be understandable from his position. From there, it would become an issue of each of you being honest about how you inadvertently hurt the other: him by thinking you had facts that would have made your actions manipulative and you by not prioritizing the fact that your dominant was hurt before whether he was wrong.

frazzle -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 6:28:51 PM)
Correct me if i'm wrong, but under your premise. if he accused me of having an affair and i hadnt, the fact he thought i had and wouldnt listen to the truth. means im somehow in the wrong for him getting that impression!!!! Should therefore aplogise and beg forgiveness!!! Ive got to have been reading this wrong.

PainfullyCurious -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 6:50:34 PM)
I'm the last person to tell people to give up on a relationship, but if I was writing a book on how to ruin one, this would be in it. I would not be able to let this go and I don't think there is anything wrong with the fact that you can't. You're in a situation that would be very difficult to forgive even if he was asking for forgiveness. Since he won't even discuss it, let alone acknowledge you were telling the truth, it becomes unforgivable. Not because the offense itself is, but because he hurt you deeply and has no desire to atone. There's no clear opportunity to forgive even if you thought the relationship was worth it. Now, if you are sure that he was making you pay for the way an ex treated him, then I suppose you could forgive him for still being hurt and confidently stand by while he gets himself together. Healing takes some time and it takes a very secure person to do that. If you are in love, I think that's one of the dangers. It makes it so easy for you to see your partner as the person they could be when they put their petty insecurities aside. The problem with standing by while that happens is that the person that he is will learn to treat you like a doormat and may never really get the motivation to find himself. In a relationship that's more on equal footing it might be easier for you to act to make sure he regrets such lapses in judgment (if you decide you want to put up with them to begin with). Since you're not really in a position to do that, maybe you should avoid the issue at hand, but honestly explain to him that you are having doubts about whether or not he's ready (or currently able) to be the person you need him to be to continue submitting to him. To me, it just seems really dangerous to accept that dynamic with someone who still has emotional issues to work out. Of course there's another possibility too. We sometimes decide that we know how another person thinks and feels because it is how we might have thought or felt. He could be calling you manipulative because that is how he is. If that's the case, then you don't have to walk away today, but in time you will come to see that you are not compatible in the most fundamental way. Couples who share similar moral values may have different opinions here and there, but on the whole they see the world through the same eyes. They actually start to fuse, in a way, as time goes on. If this incident is more than just one incident, if it's indicative that your values are incongruent, you can chose to stay together and fight it out, but you'll never really be at peace.

WyldHrt -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 7:09:20 PM)
quote: Correct me if i'm wrong, but under your premise. if he accused me of having an affair and i hadnt, the fact he thought i had and wouldnt listen to the truth. means im somehow in the wrong for him getting that impression!!!! Should therefore aplogise and beg forgiveness!!! Ive got to have been reading this wrong. Now you're getting it, frazzle! Rule #1- It's always the s- type's fault Rule #2- If it somehow is not the s-type's fault, then it has to be at least partially the s-type's fault. Rule #3- If the Dom completely screws the pooch and acts like an asshat, see Rules 1 & 2 [8\|]

frazzle -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 7:12:16 PM)
Thanks wyld, i somehow didnt think i was reading a cetain someones post wrong.[:)]

PainfullyCurious -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 7:13:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WyldHrt Rule #3- If the Dom completely screws the pooch and acts like an asshat, see Rules 1 & 2 [8\|] Aahhh, the term asshat makes me laugh. Thank You.

NihilusZero -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 7:18:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: frazzle Correct me if i'm wrong, but under your premise. if he accused me of having an affair and i hadnt, the fact he thought i had and wouldnt listen to the truth. means im somehow in the wrong for him getting that impression!!!! Did you miss the entire side topic of interpretative vs. verifiable acts? Having an affair is two parts: an act and an interpretation of that act. If both you and he agreed that you did an act, but you felt it wasn't an "affair" or "cheating", but he did, then it isn't about him being wrong or you being right.

WyldHrt -> RE: coming to terms with a false accusation (11/9/2009 7:20:14 PM)
quote: Thanks wyld, i somehow didnt think i was reading a cetain someones post wrong.[:)] Now, be sure to properly apologize and beg forgiveness.... [;)] quote: Aahhh, the term asshat makes me laugh. Thank You. It makes me laugh too, PC [:D]

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