RE: Why do some Masters feel that they have to lie? (Full Version)

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AquaticSub -> RE: Why do some Masters feel that they have to lie? (11/12/2009 1:38:52 PM)

quote:


Perfect! My point exactly. [:)] I wasn't referring to skill. But to train yourself and to gain discipline, and respect for those around you which is exactly what I think a master does- strive to improve himself and be the best man he can be.


Here is where our disagreement is. I don't think that is a master-ly quality. I think that is something I should expect from everyone.
quote:


Perhaps you missed the part of my post where I said "Does this mean they are infallible? No, but making the occasional mistake is different than it just being their modus operandi- and generally those who are at that standard of Master, are also quick to admit their mistakes and own them" Naturally they screw up, but my point is that there is a difference between someone who is aiming to do the right thing and errs, versus someone who is simply unscrupulous.

Which makes them an asshole but it's not "higher standards" to expect someone not to be an asshole. I expect that from my vanilla friends.

quote:


quote:


But these aren't higher standards. These are the standards I held all of my partners to. Maybe we should stop regarding a dominant being a decent person as magical and just expect it and move on when they aren't


If you move on when people don't meet these standards, than you are holding the people you select as partners to a higher standard than those you don't select. So you do hold them to "higher standards." No one is looking for dominants to be magical or mythical or to be some higher supreme being like the Buddha-they'd be waiting a very long time, lol. As I started out saying, dominance is just a characteristic and has nothing to do with scruples and character. But for someone to master me, they would have to be a decent person, otherwise I simply wouldn't admire them and look up to them. We all have our own lines of what we will accept or not.

Regards,
anna

Again my problem is that you have to use the phrase "higher standards" just to expect someone to be a decent person. Higher standards than what? What are your lower standards for everyone else? Since when did being a decent person become such a rare thing! I haven't found it to be such and so I continue to expect that of everyone in my life, master, vanilla, submissive, or otherwise.



IBused -> RE: Why do some Masters feel that they have to lie? (11/12/2009 1:49:46 PM)

Without reading the previous five pages, I'm sure this has been said over and over.  Why do people lie?
Why call out Masters?  Everyone lies.



AnnaOfAramis -> RE: Why do some Masters feel that they have to lie? (11/12/2009 4:26:23 PM)

quote:

Here is where our disagreement is. I don't think that is a master-ly quality. I think that is something I should expect from everyone.


Oh, I don't actually think we disagree. I expect it from all people I call my friends too- but then that would even more so apply to one whom I would give the control of my life, my decisions, and my friendships. In other words, if I expect it from my friends, I definitely wouldn't settle for less in a master. Perhaps we just need a different phrase than "higher standards".... how about... "better than your average dick head" .... or "ethically compatible".... "grade A choice select beef" [:D]

OK I'm getting silly now [8D]

anna



Hierodule -> RE: Why do some Masters feel that they have to lie? (11/12/2009 4:52:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis
"grade A choice select beef" [:D]


That's what we all look for isn't it?[sm=angel.gif]



AquaticSub -> RE: Why do some Masters feel that they have to lie? (11/12/2009 10:33:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis

quote:

Here is where our disagreement is. I don't think that is a master-ly quality. I think that is something I should expect from everyone.


Oh, I don't actually think we disagree. I expect it from all people I call my friends too- but then that would even more so apply to one whom I would give the control of my life, my decisions, and my friendships. In other words, if I expect it from my friends, I definitely wouldn't settle for less in a master. Perhaps we just need a different phrase than "higher standards".... how about... "better than your average dick head" .... or "ethically compatible".... "grade A choice select beef" [:D]

OK I'm getting silly now [8D]

anna


Ethically compatible works a lot better. But I'm fond of the beef one too. [;)]

I feel that we disagreed because of an idea that masters have to somehow behave "better" but the things people say fall into that "higher standard" are exactly what any person should be able to expect from their partner in a healthy relationship. Having control of themselves, honesty and all that jazz.

So it's kinda... "Well fuck... if that's the higher standard that they have to follow, what the hell can I get with enough since I'm just a sub/slave?"



sincityprincess -> RE: Why do some Masters feel that they have to lie? (11/13/2009 12:04:36 AM)

I think their are sometimes when it is the Master who presumes he is held to higher standards.

A slave or subbie, particularly if she is younger or less experienced, may look up to her Master in such a way...and hold him on such a pedestal, that when he does do something that he isn't proud of himself for--because we all do, being human and all, he may feel that he should lie to cover it up instead of letting her see that he makes mistakes or bad decisions sometimes.

Parents sometimes do it with kids, bosses with employees...you feel like you are supposed to be perfect all the time, you don't want the people you are in charge of to find out that you're not.



MasterK13 -> RE: Why do some Masters feel that they have to lie? (11/14/2009 12:00:45 AM)

Any one else feel like you are all straying from the main point? Here is 2 reasons.

1. EITHER PROTECTING ARE IDENTIES.

2. OR LIAR AND TIME WASTER.



AnnaOfAramis -> RE: Why do some Masters feel that they have to lie? (11/14/2009 4:45:22 PM)

Greetings,

I was thinking about dominants who lie this morning while driving (a good time to ponder, I've found). The thing is, if they lie to me or if they say they will do something and don't, then it leaves me not trusting them and doubting their word. If they treat their word like shit, then how can they expect me to respect their word as law? If they don't respect their own honor then how can they expect me to respect them? And lacking, trust, honor, respect... how can they expect to hold me in slavery?

Just today's 2 cents while driving in the rain... [sm=2cents.gif]

anna



AquaticSub -> RE: Why do some Masters feel that they have to lie? (11/15/2009 12:48:17 PM)

If they are lying right off the bat, the odds are good they don't care or are very insecure about something. On the reverse though, if a sub/slave lies, how does the dom/master trust them to obey when they aren't around and respect the laws they lay down? To continue to give their obedience and strengthen the relationship? Not disagreeing, just felt like throwing it out there. I could get away with a hell of a lot more if I felt it was ok to lie to Val. [:D]



DesFIP -> RE: Why do some Masters feel that they have to lie? (11/15/2009 12:59:59 PM)

Prime, not choice. Like a Ruth's Chris steak.

With that said, Aqua, I do tolerate less appropriate behavior in my offspring then I do in adults. Simply because they aren't grown up yet enough to not panic and do the wrong thing. An adult would, or should, know that once you've screwed up, the best thing to do is admit it and ask for help rectifying the situation. A kid's first impulse is to try to get out of trouble. Which of course always gets them into more trouble but they haven't learned that yet.

This also assumes that both partners are ethical people. I know people who if you ever make a mistake, will ridicule you forever. People who if you have the misfortune of having to come to them with a problem will not look for solutions but use it as an excuse to yell at and belittle you. I don't choose them as partners, and I prefer not to see them, but if they're a great uncle, sometimes you do get stuck seeing them.

My ex had a habit of doing this simply because his father had done it to him growing up. It didn't teach him not to make mistakes, just made him a pain to deal with. It wasn't until I told him that if his response to me thinking I had left the milk out was to yell at me for three hours till we got home, that in future I would lie to him and rush to take the garbage out the second I got home and then buy more. If he wanted truth from me, he had to present an atmosphere where it would be welcome.

Shooting the messenger is not a good thing.



AquaticSub -> RE: Why do some Masters feel that they have to lie? (11/15/2009 1:25:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Shooting the messenger is not a good thing.


I don't see where I implied it was...



Zevar -> RE: Why do some Masters feel that they have to lie? (11/15/2009 1:31:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Muirren

Or cover up things, and then when you have caught them, they try covering up again? I really would like to have a mans opinion on this, especially a Master.


Greetings Muirren:

Lying is usually a result of being fearful or otherwise characteristic of a weak-willed coward, thus one who refuses to face what is true and real. When it comes to habitual lying that is a whole other territory that results from deep seated issues that in most instances require professional assistance to address the issues related to this form of lying.

Clearly at no time is it productive to lie. Nonetheless some men and women too tend to choose lying even after being confronted on their lies. Unfortunately some people even after being caught in their lies which they have committed try to redefine or minimize their lies and then choose to treat their lying as characteristically second nature; thus the destructive patterns repeat in a cyclical manner that harm others for no valid reason when allowed by way of permitting someone who is known to lie to remain connected in their life.

Obviously investing trust with anyone who is known to lie and then avoid the consequences of their actions is asking to be harmed. Ending all contact with those who prove to lie is the only remedy that ends the pattern from adversely affecting oneself altogether.

Further do understand that offering trust to another who is met for the first time in and of itself is not ever wrong or a shameful act to commit. Instead when trust is offered and then betrayed is when a shameful act is committed by the one who violated the bond of trust that was offered thus being formed.

Once a bond of trust is violated and betrayed IMO the bond cannot ever be reconciled regardless. In such instances my position is thus far and no more. All contact is severed without any way to ever connect again. Maliciously betraying a bond of trust is indeed something that is never acceptable.



WarKirby -> RE: Why do some Masters feel that they have to lie? (11/15/2009 1:48:34 PM)

I lie 50 times a day. I am also a billionaire astronaut with a 20-inch cock.



AquaticSub -> RE: Why do some Masters feel that they have to lie? (11/15/2009 1:55:42 PM)

I'm yours! [:D]



breatheasone -> RE: Why do some Masters feel that they have to lie? (11/15/2009 2:05:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WarKirby

I lie 50 times a day. I am also a billionaire astronaut with a 20-inch cock.

i could handle the lying, the fact that you have a cool job, and are rich is good. But that small dick of yours would be a deal breaker [;)]



DesFIP -> RE: Why do some Masters feel that they have to lie? (11/15/2009 2:05:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Shooting the messenger is not a good thing.


I don't see where I implied it was...


You didn't. Just saying that for some people, if it's bad news, they aren't safe to tell the truth to. Not face to face.



AquaticSub -> RE: Why do some Masters feel that they have to lie? (11/15/2009 3:02:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Shooting the messenger is not a good thing.


I don't see where I implied it was...


You didn't. Just saying that for some people, if it's bad news, they aren't safe to tell the truth to. Not face to face.


Ahh. You simply addressed me and I didn't see where I referenced offspring either. [:)]



DesFIP -> RE: Why do some Masters feel that they have to lie? (11/15/2009 6:02:40 PM)

I referenced offspring because you said you expected these higher ethical behavior in those you associate with. Which cannot include offspring who aren't able yet to behave in such manner.



AquaticSub -> RE: Why do some Masters feel that they have to lie? (11/15/2009 6:20:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I referenced offspring because you said you expected these higher ethical behavior in those you associate with. Which cannot include offspring who aren't able yet to behave in such manner.


Forgive me for not including clauses. I am also more lenient with those with autism and other conditions - I mistakenly felt the general idea that I was speaking of adults would be clear as we were mostly discussing relationships. My most sincere apologies for not being perfectly clear.

However, I do hold children to my standards. They simply need to be gently taught and I'm not going to go "piss off" cause they took a cookie and lied about it. And, for the record, I'm the one against the idea of higher standards.



AQuietSimpleMan -> RE: Why do some Masters feel that they have to lie? (11/16/2009 8:11:13 AM)

I wonder why anyone thinks any type of label does any "one things" as an absolute.
 
Like why do some Masters feel they have to lie?
Why are some slaves fat?
Why are some Dom's assholes?
Why are some Mistresses gold digging bitches?
 
Because all of these labels are people, and people are fickle creatures who confuse the Gods in their inconsistencies.
 
I, however, have a different question for you, one that you can actually do something about.
 
Why do you put so much faith into what a person says rather than taking the necessary time to forge an actual relationship with a person in which you get the ability to judge them by their actions and not thier words?
 
People lie. People abuse trust. It is an inescapable truth. You are often the only variable that you can change in any equasion. So why not start there?
 
QSM



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