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Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/18/2009 1:11:17 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

Notice, that wasn't specific to a Democratic or Republican led government. Why is it that so many here point to government, whether through regulation or entitlement, as a source to improve their own personal situation?

Scientific and social studies have generated results that rationalize our race, age, sex, personal experience, are the cause for our issues. There are no more misbehaving children, they are only suffering from ADD, ADHD, or the newest rage aspergers syndrome. I remember when that fad was starting in the schools. Now those children are 'adults'. Yet it appears they still seek rationalized excuses for their misbehavior; few look in the mirror. "I was coerced to take on a house and mortgage I couldn't afford." "I didn't think to try and buy medical insurance at my age until I found out I had cancer." Is anyone at fault anymore for their personal situation?

Don't misunderstand, the people behind those entities who "took advantage" deserve similar scrutiny. "We had to cave in to union demands and bankrupt GM." Or as Bernie said on his way to jail. "I took advantage of a regulatory loophole. I had the best intent to pay back everyone as soon as the economy turned around." It's never the fault of the person, even when they are caught.

Have so many been told for so long that personal accountability is no longer the case that the majority believe it as fact, abdicate any hope for self sufficiency, and find their only hope in government regulation, laws, and benefits to lead them in their daily life?

There is still so much opportunity. The window may not be as wide as it was, but it's not closed. Whether you can tell the difference and your identity is locked into the philosophy of one political party or the other; what do you see from those in power that gives you confidence that the condition of your life will improve even marginally as a result of action take by the government, not needing any more effort from you?

What result can you point to that supports any hope that government involvement is beneficial to you personally or the country at large?

I'm sincerely curious and hope to see some good reason to trust the current ruling class, under current the entrenched PAC and Lobbying environment, doing anything for any of us.

Post #: 1

RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/18/2009 1:31:46 PM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

Because, in theory, we are the government.

It is not our enemy, but this country has become so polarized that we are in gridlock.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 2

RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/18/2009 2:01:43 PM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline

All animals are equal

but some animals are more equal than others

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 3

RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/18/2009 2:10:40 PM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Because, in theory, we are the government.

It is not our enemy, but this country has become so polarized that we are in gridlock.

Thats all the more reason to not trust the government...I sure as hell don't trust many strangers to be competent at what they do or to have honest intent when they are competent.

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 4

RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/18/2009 2:15:03 PM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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but (although you will never see this) we dont trust ourselves either, we should stand a lot more together regardless of our very polarized differences, and stand on the one thing we do agree on, this is not a government that is by for and of the people........and we need to get it back to that.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 5

RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/18/2009 2:30:16 PM

AnimusRex

Posts: 2165
Joined: 5/13/2006
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I am not sure I get the gist of this argument; you argue for personal responsibility, and cite good examples.

But then you go on to argue against government involvement to improve people's lives.

Isn't this a false dilemma?

In other words, even if we agree that it is ridiculous for government to shield people from every conceivable harm, isn't having some degree of government protection a useful thing?

"Personal Responsibility" is one of those things like "Patriotism" that is a natural platitude- no one can possibly mount an attack on it, and argue that we should NOT be responsible, or patriotic.
But because of this, it becomes easy to forget that even good arguments have an illogical extreme.

The illogical extreme of "Rersonal Responsibility" is to extend it to mean that we are all atomized individuals, with no mutual responsibility, not obligation of concern or indebtedness to the community. "Caveat Emptor", "you pays your money, you takes yer chances".
This then defeats the idea of society- we are always on guard, with shields up, never at peace or in a position of trust and confidence.

Isn't it better to know you can go to the store and trust that the government has checked the scales and verified they are not rigged; that the meat is not tainted; that the Treasury Department has nearly eliminated the chance you will get counterfeit bills in change; and the police department has ensured that you won't get attacked by bandits on the way home?

A narrower argument for greater personal acountability I can get behind. But a broad swipe at government in general is misguided.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 6

RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/18/2009 3:28:00 PM

Hierodule

Posts: 597
Joined: 9/22/2009
Status: offline

I have never trusted the government. As a habitual law breaker, the government scares the day lights out of me. But I rely on it everyday. I take public transit, I ride in the bike lane, I thank the gov. everyday for the signs that say "share the road" and the stop lights(even though I don't obey them) I don't know what it would be like without these simple little things. I have no choice but to rely on them. I live in the city.

Black Steel In The Hour Of Chaos - Public Enemy

I got a letter from the government
The other day
I opened and read it
It said they were suckers
They wanted me for their army or whatever
Picture me given' a damn - I said never
Here is a land that never gave a damn
About a brother like me and myself
Because they never did
I wasn't wit' it, but just that very minute...
It occured to me
The suckers had authority
Cold sweatin' as I dwell in my cell
How long has it been?
They got me sittin' in the state pen
I gotta get out - but that thought was thought before
I contemplated a plan on the cell floor
I'm not a fugitive on the run
But a brother like me begun - to be another one
Public enemy servin' time - they drew the line y'all
To criticize me some crime - never the less
They could not understand that I'm a Black man
And I could never be a veteran
On the strength, the situation's unreal
I got a raw deal, so I'm goin' for the steel

(in reply to AnimusRex)

Post #: 7

RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/18/2009 3:35:23 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

I am not sure I get the gist of this argument; you argue for personal responsibility, and cite good examples.

But then you go on to argue against government involvement to improve people's lives.

Isn't this a false dilemma?

No I see it as a cause and effect. Were I into wearing tin hats I would think it was the result of a deliberate effort.

Self sufficiency and reliance will never happen unless until people not only don't rely on the government but can't. I have two living examples of that in my house. Two, very well educated, able, and available 20+ year olds. However instead of being out there, their government (me) provides for them. Not ideal for them; they bitch like any non-taxpaying entitlement receiving individual. But I'd hazard to guess that without government backing they'd be a lot more independent and self sufficient. As would a lot of US citizens living under the macro example of those same circumstances.

To your position:

quote:

The illogical extreme of "Rersonal Responsibility" is to extend it to mean that we are all atomized individuals, with no mutual responsibility, not obligation of concern or indebtedness to the community. "Caveat Emptor", "you pays your money, you takes yer chances".
This then defeats the idea of society- we are always on guard, with shields up, never at peace or in a position of trust and confidence.

That's not the case now? You're not in a 'caveat emptor' now regarding anything coming as "good for you" from the government? The value of money itself is at risk with no possible influence to change it by the common US citizen, who doesn't even know of that condition because instead they're debating the arc of Obama's last bow.

Personal responsibility versus relying on anything from the result of a government elected by people having such priority issues is an easy decision. However this thread isn't about me. Its my wonder why any reasonable individual would feel so impotent as to even consider the government as a solution to their personal situation.

(in reply to AnimusRex)

Post #: 8

RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/18/2009 3:37:36 PM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

I am not sure I get the gist of this argument; you argue for personal responsibility, and cite good examples.

But then you go on to argue against government involvement to improve people's lives.

Isn't this a false dilemma?

In other words, even if we agree that it is ridiculous for government to shield people from every conceivable harm, isn't having some degree of government protection a useful thing?

"Personal Responsibility" is one of those things like "Patriotism" that is a natural platitude- no one can possibly mount an attack on it, and argue that we should NOT be responsible, or patriotic.
But because of this, it becomes easy to forget that even good arguments have an illogical extreme.

The illogical extreme of "Rersonal Responsibility" is to extend it to mean that we are all atomized individuals, with no mutual responsibility, not obligation of concern or indebtedness to the community. "Caveat Emptor", "you pays your money, you takes yer chances".
This then defeats the idea of society- we are always on guard, with shields up, never at peace or in a position of trust and confidence.

Isn't it better to know you can go to the store and trust that the government has checked the scales and verified they are not rigged; that the meat is not tainted; that the Treasury Department has nearly eliminated the chance you will get counterfeit bills in change; and the police department has ensured that you won't get attacked by bandits on the way home?

A narrower argument for greater personal acountability I can get behind. But a broad swipe at government in general is misguided.

His statement said "have so many....", which limits the extent somewhat, but a broad swipe is totally appropriate when the government intervenes in areas where the private sector can accomplish the same things. Generally if there is no free rider problem, the government shouldnt be involved. You dont need a government to check scales or check for tainted meat. Private organizations can do those jobs quite well, and the cost passed on to the consumer if he buys something utilizing that service and without taxing "vegetarians".

UL does a great job at the same kind of process.

(in reply to AnimusRex)

Post #: 9

RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/18/2009 3:44:01 PM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

http://www.ulenvironment.com/global/eng/pages/offerings/services/advisory/advisory/government/

cute, but we know that the government also attacks Fox news thru sesame streets Oscar the Grouch. We have it on the highest authority.

So, you are advocating more socialism is all. Form a company, and have the government pay you, adding to government bureauocracy, and making it more expensive for the consumer.

I thought that conservatives were against this sort of thing. You are a Rino, not a neo-con.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 10

RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/18/2009 3:53:04 PM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

What result can you point to that supports any hope that government involvement is beneficial to you personally or the country at large?

...fair question.

My education. State funded schools. It was as good as any private school without the elitism and snobbery that such schools almost always result in.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 11

RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/18/2009 3:58:46 PM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

What result can you point to that supports any hope that government involvement is beneficial to you personally or the country at large?

...fair question.

My education. State funded schools. It was as good as any private school without the elitism and snobbery that such schools almost always result in.

I don't know what the UK experience has been but 30-40 years ago your statement would have applied quite well here. Unfortunately the quality of public education in the US has deteriorated precipitously since then, as curricula strayed further and further from the "3 Rs", science and language.

While there is a significant free rider problem that would indicate that government involvement is appropriate, taxation with vouchers is an approach that may be necessary.

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 12

RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/18/2009 3:59:45 PM

Moonhead

Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

So presumably you're down on the idea of interventionist government bodies like the Police and the army as well, then?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 13

RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/18/2009 4:05:49 PM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

What result can you point to that supports any hope that government involvement is beneficial to you personally or the country at large?

...fair question.

My education. State funded schools. It was as good as any private school without the elitism and snobbery that such schools almost always result in.

I don't know what the UK experience has been but 30-40 years ago your statement would have applied quite well here. Unfortunately the quality of public education in the US has deteriorated precipitously since then, as curricula strayed further and further from the "3 Rs", science and language.

While there is a significant free rider problem that would indicate that government involvement is appropriate, taxation with vouchers is an approach that may be necessary.

...a couple of questions. What, in your opinion, has downgraded the condition of state funded education in the US? And why would the free market fix it?

In my view the free market usually produces variation in whatever field it is applied to. In many fields this is an extremely good thing, as competition can be beneficial. i'm not so sure that's the case with education. i don't think the idea that parents should have a choice between one school that teaches evolution and another that teaches creationism heightens educational attainment. If anything it lowers it.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 14

RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/18/2009 4:21:44 PM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

What result can you point to that supports any hope that government involvement is beneficial to you personally or the country at large?

...fair question.

My education. State funded schools. It was as good as any private school without the elitism and snobbery that such schools almost always result in.

I don't know what the UK experience has been but 30-40 years ago your statement would have applied quite well here. Unfortunately the quality of public education in the US has deteriorated precipitously since then, as curricula strayed further and further from the "3 Rs", science and language.

While there is a significant free rider problem that would indicate that government involvement is appropriate, taxation with vouchers is an approach that may be necessary.

...a couple of questions. What, in your opinion, has downgraded the condition of state funded education in the US? And why would the free market fix it?

In my view the free market usually produces variation in whatever field it is applied to. In many fields this is an extremely good thing, as competition can be beneficial. i'm not so sure that's the case with education. i don't think the idea that parents should have a choice between one school that teaches evolution and another that teaches creationism heightens educational attainment. If anything it lowers it.

Two things have led to the decline in quality imo. First is the aforementioned change in curricula. Far too much time is spent on non-essential subjects. Second is the tenure system and power of the teacher's unions. There is far too little accountability of individual teachers.

I don't think your concern about variations in education are a real world problem here. There are 3 major providers of education: public, private non-sectarian, and religious (primarily Catholic). At least in the major urban and suburban areas the curricula in "hard subjects" does not vary significantly, even in the Catholic schools. While there may be somewhat less emphasis on Darwinian evolution, using your example, in the Catholic schools it is taught. Rural areas I can't speak to.

Also "vouchers" don't necessarily need to be for private schools. "School of choice", "magnet schools" etc can provide the equivalent. However there is a major economic problem that the private sector is better able to handle. There are large fixed costs for any given school in the form of maintenance, HVAC minimum staffing requirements, etc.

When a public school falls into disfavor and students transfer to private schools/magnet schools etc, the receiving schools become overcrowded and the sending schools per capita costs go way up. (The converse is the reason that as many kids as can be stuffed into a publiic school classroom will be.) Due to political/geographical constraints public schools are very slow to respond to those problems. A private company with critical mass in an geographical area can be far more flexible in movement of teachers/students between facilities allowing for more efficient utilization.

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 15

RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/18/2009 4:26:57 PM

servantforuse

Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline

I'm from the government, and I'm here to help you. I don't trust them and I don't need them, at least for eight more years when I go on medicare. By that time the 500 billion cut to medicare will be in full force and the money own't be there anyway.

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 16

RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/18/2009 4:49:05 PM

submittous

Posts: 345
Joined: 6/12/2004
Status: offline

I live in Mexico now and trust the US govenment more than ours here.... but honestly I have more trust and faith in either of them than the corporations that run everything in my life and the world. I know governments are corrupt and highly influenced by the above mentioned corporations but there is at least a sliver of accountability to the public from governments, none at all by corps...

I do wish the voters in the US were more informed and aware of the facts and realities of the issues. I think it would be magical thinking to wish for government that wasn't mainly controlled by big money and that wasn't corrupt. But I don't think it is beyond possibilities for the public to have it's meager influence be based on better information.

_____________________________

"If you are lucky enough to find a way of life you love, you have to find the courage to live it." John Irving

(in reply to servantforuse)

Post #: 17

RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/18/2009 4:58:10 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

When my govt tries to tell me that I "need" "free trade" no, I don't trust them!

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 18

RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/18/2009 5:28:09 PM

AnimusRex

Posts: 2165
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
Generally if there is no free rider problem, the government shouldnt be involved. You dont need a government to check scales or check for tainted meat. Private organizations can do those jobs quite well, and the cost passed on to the consumer if he buys something utilizing that service and without taxing "vegetarians".
UL does a great job at the same kind of process.

Generally, the free market can do many things very well, with no need for much government intervention. But to go on to advocate turning all government services over to private sector is a radical idea that is based on faith, not reason.
Back in the 1970's whenever one of my socialist friends would spout off about how "if we only had socialism, things would be better".
My respone was to ask them where this has been demonstrated- where is this socialist society that produces both freedom and prosperity, so we might study it and learn from it?
The answer was always that it wasn't here yet, but it says right here in a book that if we did...
at which point they lost me.

So here we have people advocating that we turn almost all (or entirely all, I can't tell) government services over to the private sector, that if we only had "laissez faire free market, things would be better."

And so I have to ask- where is this modern industrialized society that produces both freedom and prosperity, based on nothing more than the private markets, with no government regulation or services?

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 19

RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/18/2009 5:37:30 PM

NeedToUseYou

Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline

I think I rely or trust the government far less than your average person. I would prefer the reach of government to be much less almost everywhere.

However... the government does have some necessary functions, IMO, that I do to one degree or another rely on.

1. Roads.
2. Police.
3. Fire Stations
4. Help for impoverished kids, though I really don't like the current system of just giving the parents money, or food stamps.
5. Some assurance of ability to get a high school education, that doesn't necessarily mean they should run the all the schools receiving funds.
6. Some assistance for the permanently disabled, again I think the current system is not correct in its handling of the situation.
7. Military..
8. Relations with foreign countries.

Not an exhaustive list just some off the top of my head.

In my ideal world, there would still be a government, however, it would probably be a fifth the size.

IMO, we are getting way to close to the extreme end of extreme government involvement.

< Message edited by NeedToUseYou -- 11/18/2009 5:38:43 PM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 20

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