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RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/18/2009 5:50:43 PM   
CelticSubM


Posts: 102
Joined: 3/12/2004
Status: offline 		In a democracy, government is simply the people acting collectively. It's no better and no worse than we collectively choose to make it. Governments are like spouses. A good one is a great comfort, but even the best will always have faults. Still, all but the worst are better than none at all.

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
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RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/18/2009 6:23:38 PM   
couldbemage


Posts: 112
Joined: 7/16/2008
Status: offline 		Insulation is a fine example of where capitalism breaks down. It costs next to nothing, during construction, but is hideously expensive to add later. It's hidden in the walls, so home buyers can't see what's there when buying a new house. As such it adds essentially zero value to new construction. Regs that require good insulation add almost nothing to home prices, and are good for everyone.

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RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/18/2009 6:58:48 PM   
NeedToUseYou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CelticSubM

In a democracy, government is simply the people acting collectively. It's no better and no worse than we collectively choose to make it. Governments are like spouses. A good one is a great comfort, but even the best will always have faults. Still, all but the worst are better than none at all.


Well, if that is indeed true, then we are a nation of beggars and thieves.

I want a divorce.

(in reply to CelticSubM)
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RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/18/2009 11:20:25 PM   
Rhodes85


Posts: 445
Joined: 11/15/2008
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Status: offline 		'Because, in theory, we are the government. '

The key words there are 'in theory.' In theory communism works as well. But everyone knows how that turns out in practice.

I don't trust the government. or very much of what it does.

_____________________________

This is a test of the Emergency Broadcast System. Had this been an actual emergency you would all be dead by now. Have a nice day and remember: Friends don't let friends vote Republican.

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RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/19/2009 4:48:12 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		I'm not sure that's true. There's a lot of examples of communism working very well indeed, it's just that all of those are on a much smaller than national scale.

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/19/2009 7:57:33 AM   
UncleNasty


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Because, in theory, we are the government.

It is not our enemy, but this country has become so polarized that we are in gridlock.



The above comment brings to mind a quote alleged to be from Winston Churchill:

"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."

We in the US do not have a democracy, rather a constitutional republic. Rule of law as opposed to mob rule.

I've believed, in the broadest strokes, that many of our problems stem from having an uninformed, or ill informed, citizenry. So few citizens know how our constitution provides limits and disabilities on our government (imagine Leno doing a "Jaywalking" on the US Constitution), on our elected officials, that the government and officials are typically able to run roughshod over the collective "people" without any of said people having a clue they have acted outside the boundaries of their authority.

A government that fears no restraint or reprisal from the people it allegedly serves is not trustworthy, IMO.

Uncle Nasty

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RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/19/2009 8:19:07 AM   
Louve00


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Status: offline 		I've seen Leno's "Jay-walking" episodes, and UN you couldn't be speaking any clearer (at least to me).

We are misinformed...about just about everything.  Its only when one isolated incident happens specifically to you, that you truly begin to realize how uneducated you are in "the way it is" on so many things.  And how silly it is to hear how some people "fill in the blanks" of what they don't know. 

As far as answering the OP's question.  As pitiful as it sounds, I know I don't trust gov't completely (for the simple reason that things are so distorted when it comes to what it really is), but I do feel I have to rely on them, for some things.  And since my pensions won't be completely holding me, I'll be relying on the gov't when I retire.  LOL...if there's anything left when I get there!

_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

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RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/19/2009 9:17:33 AM   
AnimusRex


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhodes85
I don't trust the government. or very much of what it does.


In a democracy, no one should trust the government. This is why for example, people like me react so violently to the premise that the President during a "time of war" has the power to imprison American citizens without trial or the right to protest their innocence. This is exactly what happened to Jose Padilla, and that case was never ruled on by the courts.
This is why the ACLU demands so loudly that the government obtain warrants to spy on us or read our email. Why we object so loudly to the retroactive immunity given to telecoms that broke the law.

We should not trust the government, but control it. When the government is open, and properly controlled by courts and laws, it can work very well.

The premise that the government is the only thing that threatens our freedom is a dangerous bit of nonsense. Private interests are every bit as dangerous as the government, and we have even less control over them. We have the power to vote out Obama and the Treasury Secretary; but no one here has any say in who runs AIG/Goldman Sachs/ Citibank or how they choose to run it. Which of these entities has more power to ruin your life?

In my last post I asked for examples of pure unfettered free market societies that produced freedom and prosperity. While I wait for someone to produce an example of one, lets look at the other side of the coin.

Which are the most free, most prosperous nations on earth? The ones that the majority of people want to move to and become a part of?

Pretty much what you would think; The United States, Canada, Australia, Western Europe, Japan; in other words, highly developed industrialized nations, with high rates of government involvement in the private sector and a social welfare system.

To answer my own question, which are the nations with no or very limited government, low rates of taxation and regulation, that depend entirely on private markets?

Somalia, Yemen, Congo, Afghanistan, most of sub-Saharan Africa, Myanmar, Bangladesh....they all have governments that are, in Grover Norquists words, "Small enough to drown in a bathtub".

Are these the models we are emulating? Are these the John Galtian capitalist Utopias that are being pitched here?

There is no magic bullet- unlimited government is every bit as dangerous as unlimited capitalism. The only government that has proven itself capable of delivering both freedom and prosperity is a mixed society of private and public sectors complementing each other.

This has been your daily rant. You may resume your activities.

(in reply to Rhodes85)
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RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/19/2009 9:45:39 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

In my last post I asked for examples of pure unfettered free market societies that produced freedom and prosperity. While I wait for someone to produce an example of one, lets look at the other side of the coin.


You ask a specious question then wonder why nobody sees any merit in answering.

There isn't an example because what we have in the US evolved from the 'kingdoms' of Europe. Currently, the US version of 'democracy' is as currupt and unserving as the kingdoms were in the 1800's. Perhaps it is a good time to attempt a similiar revolution where an unfettered free market society can be set up and see what happens.

quote:

Pretty much what you would think; The United States, Canada, Australia, Western Europe, Japan; in other words, highly developed industrialized nations, with high rates of government involvement in the private sector and a social welfare system.
Arguing the relative merits of incongues examples also doesn't make a point. The high rate of government invovlement and regulation isn't even the topic. It's increasing, without ceiting, regulation and government invovelement to the point where individual accounatability and responsibility not only isn't possible but is inhibited.

Apparently you are on the side in favor of increasing government involvement into your daily decisions, or at least the daily decisions you have available to you now; how much you can make, how much you should be spending on health care, how much is your 'fair share' of taxes, how your retirement account is handled. A government limited to law enforcement, trade, international treaties; is not the government being discussed. You have yet to say why you prefer the less choice of a government that limits freedom of choice versus one with broader access for the individual to accomplish whatever they are capable. The lack of an alternative example to point to with that philosophy in place, outside of Lichtenstein, or perhaps Monaco, isn't an answer.

(in reply to AnimusRex)
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RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/19/2009 9:59:55 AM   
AnimusRex


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Status: offline 		Again, we are being treated to a false dilemma;

You seem to be suggesting that we get to pick between a totalitarian nanny state or a...well, I can't really tell what you are proposing, other than some society where "an unfettered free market society can be set up and see what happens"

... and see what happens? You mean some grand experiment in radical social reorganization?
That is precisely what I meant when I talked about my socialist friends in the 1970's arguing for some theoretical socialist utopia.

Thanks, but no thanks. How about a reasoned discussion of specific reforms and changes to what we have now?

For instance, can we agree that corporations have too much power and control over our elected representatives? Or that the marriage of private interests and public power can produce monstrous corruption?


< Message edited by AnimusRex -- 11/19/2009 10:00:49 AM >

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RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/19/2009 10:27:19 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

You seem to be suggesting that we get to pick between a totalitarian nanny state or a...well, I can't really tell what you are proposing, other than some society where "an unfettered free market society can be set up and see what happens"

... and see what happens? You mean some grand experiment in radical social reorganization?
That is precisely what I meant when I talked about my socialist friends in the 1970's arguing for some theoretical socialist utopia.


No - those are the only two alternative you are proposing. Which is, as you say, a "false delimma".

The elimination of government from day to day decisions of access does not point to a condition 180 degrees from your friends socialistic solution. It's the middle ground that used to exist in the US in it's recent past. People didn't expect to send their children to school for nourishment beyond intellectual nourishment. Abdicating parental responsibility to the government has evolved to this point and is still moving beyond that, from a government service to a government expectation. An argument can be made for institutional education, although government seems to be doing a piss poor job at it. Which lends to the question still unanswered by you. Are you hoping it evolves to food, shelter, and all the other creature comforts, abdicating all personal accountability and decisions that would entail?

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RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/19/2009 10:48:15 AM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhodes85

The key words there are 'in theory.' In theory communism works as well. But everyone knows how that turns out in practice.



Everyone... knows... what?

Is this a reference to Soviet Russia? The fall of the Berlin Wall seems like less of a death knell for communism than before our current financial crash. So that's the ultimate proof that 'capitalism' is better? An extra twenty years?

Again, we need to remember that a country's chosen designation (democratic, communist, capitalist, ...) rarely ever corresponds with its actual functioning.

Not to mention, also, that Russia's floundering, corrupt-oligarchic current status directly reflects the kind of libertarian 'free-for-all' capitalism that the OP is, I believe, misguidedly promoting. China, on the other hand, shows that a guided economy can possess major strengths, at least given a certain frame set. (Switch frame sets -- look toward global warming, for instance -- and both models suck.)

The financial crisis resulted from a lack of government regulation, the repeal of Glass-Steagall, etc., not 'lazy socialists' on their government-funded couches. The problem is an excess of capitalism, not a deficit. Unbridled selfishness, hoarding, and accumulation are contradictions, not virtues. Our government is suffering a type of Midas-touch syndrome -- we want food (1/4 of Americans hungry), water, shelter, education, health, free time to enjoy life, but the business-power elites know only how to produce gold, to the extent that these elites and the politicians they've hired, on both ends of the spectrum, are seizing assets both real (your house, your food, your livelihood) and virtual (your money) for sheer virtual gains (i.e., the greatest profits in the history of Wall Street wizardry). Possibly the greatest instance of accumulation by dispossession in history. Self versus society, public versus private, competition for the sake of competition-- these struggles have created a golden short-circuit (M-M'), like that squeal a microphone makes when pointed toward the speaker---

Private versus public -- how again does the OP's model account for global warming? How does the selfish-competing-nodes system account for public spaces, e.g. water, air, temperature?

If democracy really existed in this country, and a democratic distribution of resources existed, the excess of capitalism (excessive war, excessive bonuses, excessive spending, excessive pollution (i.e., excessive excess!), excessive privitization) would subside naturally. We see evidence that the collective opinion of people (represented in polls, etc.) again and again strikes more to the heart of reason and decency that the collective will of vertically-oriented, tyrannical, systemically profit-driven enterprises that operate as inflated individuals (and even perversely share in the rights of 'real' individuals.)





< Message edited by Silence8 -- 11/19/2009 11:00:23 AM >

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RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/19/2009 11:01:04 AM   
AnimusRex


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
The elimination of government from day to day decisions of access does not point to a condition 180 degrees from your friends socialistic solution. It's the middle ground that used to exist in the US in it's recent past. People didn't expect to send their children to school for nourishment beyond intellectual nourishment. Abdicating parental responsibility to the government has evolved to this point and is still moving beyond that, from a government service to a government expectation. An argument can be made for institutional education, although government seems to be doing a piss poor job at it. Which lends to the question still unanswered by you. Are you hoping it evolves to food, shelter, and all the other creature comforts, abdicating all personal accountability and decisions that would entail?


Its funny that you reference school lunches as part of your nanny state list; See the other thread where I noted that free school lunches began in 1946.

But your bigger issue: "It's the middle ground that used to exist in the US in it's recent past"
Maybe this is why we can't seem to get anywhere- I am not sure what you are proposing we return to- What is this middle ground, and when did it exist?

In the Gilded Age before Teddy Roosevelt broke up the trusts and established government food inspections, national parks, and banking regulations?
In the 1920's before the New Deal?
In the 1950's before the Great Society programs of the 1960's?
In the 1980's under Reagan?

And what are examples of "government ...day to day decisions of access "?

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/19/2009 11:18:57 AM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

There isn't an example because what we have in the US evolved from the 'kingdoms' of Europe. Currently, the US version of 'democracy' is as currupt and unserving as the kingdoms were in the 1800's. Perhaps it is a good time to attempt a similiar revolution where an unfettered free market society can be set up and see what happens.
(emphasis added)

I'm developing a sort of obsession with this fantasy of the 'market'. The 'free market'. We don't even have markets in the US! Neither, really, does China anymore -- we have supermarkets. The whole point of the free market is to produce monopolies, to transcend the market and inflate the margin; that's how you 'win' the game. That's what capitalism is all about.

I really want to know the origin of this fantastic mythology. When exactly did the myth of the market come into the mainstream? Are we still blaming this on Milton Friedman?

Historical and anthropological evidence point to the origin of the market alongside the origin of private property, namely, slaves. Anywhere there are slaves, there are 'free markets'. On a BDSM board, I think we should be able, *cough*, to appreciate that.

here's your market, mother fuckers

< Message edited by Silence8 -- 11/19/2009 11:24:02 AM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/19/2009 12:35:45 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
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Status: offline 		Not that I'm a big fan of Geithner because I don't trust Geithner as far as I could throw a crane which is that I couldn't move a crane a crane at all but this Republican hack is so full of shit to say it's odious is a humongous understatement. Actually, I don't trust the government and I don't trust either of these two men.

Geithner Asked to Resign "You Gave This Pres an Economy Falling Off The Cliff" Geithner responds!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNHLghHNUqk&feature=sub

(in reply to CelticSubM)
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RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/19/2009 12:39:16 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

how again does the OP's model account for global warming?
Religions, like global warming, should never be part of government philosophy. Want to make a claim on it not be a faith based religion? Easy - account for, in any global warming model, the climate conditions existing during the Renaissance, when temperatures were much warmer than they were today. Its not a science if scientific proof can not be duplicated by experimental or observable results. There are none for the global warming religion. There is however a profit driven agenda, which would also make it better reference as a religion.

quote:

I am not sure what you are proposing we return to- What is this middle ground, and when did it exist?


I proposed no middle ground. Again - the question is a matter of reasoning why anyone's preference would be to expand existing government intervention in personal decisions.

Keep your thinking inside the box and you can rationalized all government services are essential. All those movements you mention have one thing in common - 'good intentions' combined with resources available at the time to accomlish a goal. Did any of them solve anything? Are we without corruption in industry since Teddy broke up the Trusts? Has the 'New Deal' generated 100% employment? Did the 'Great Society' make us all equal or create, by statute a 'more equal' group? Did 'Reaganomics' trickle down to all? No - ALL Failed. The problem is many are still be funded with no end in sight in lieu of consideration of alternatives. You give failures as reasoning to continue down the current path of a government solution. They provide a reason to think that there must be a better way.

Pragmatically all children should not be in the current 1-12 version of education. Education, should be pointed to producing the best possible result for both the students and the society they will ultimately join. That could be accomplished by returning to the guild models for some. Others should be allowed to advance as quickly as they are able to reach their greatest potential. Some children should be left behind; not to fail, but to be stalemated and encouraged in a direction which is better suited to subjects and work outside the current fixed curriculum.

You must be joking about examples of government involved in day to day decisions. Everything from where I have to participate into a SS program that will be bankrupt before I get any of my investment back, to the drugs I can and can not buy illegally or legal, but needing a prescription.


However, all of that is still a hijack - I'm still waiting to hear one person admit to why they believe government as a solution is a solution to any of their current 'problems'.

(in reply to AnimusRex)
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RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/19/2009 12:45:21 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Religions, like global warming, should never be part of government philosophy. Want to make a claim on it not be a faith based religion? Easy - account for, in any global warming model, the climate conditions existing during the Renaissance, when temperatures were much warmer than they were today. Its not a science if scientific proof can not be duplicated by experimental or observable results. There are none for the global warming religion. There is however a profit driven agenda, which would also make it better reference as a religion.

Who is going to profit from stopping the last few vestiges of manufacturing in your country, along with burning fossil fuels? Is it a jewish conspiracy?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/19/2009 1:03:23 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
Generally if there is no free rider problem, the government shouldnt be involved. You dont need a government to check scales or check for tainted meat. Private organizations can do those jobs quite well, and the cost passed on to the consumer if he buys something utilizing that service and without taxing "vegetarians".
UL does a great job at the same kind of process.


Generally, the free market can do many things very well, with no need for much government intervention. But to go on to advocate turning all government services over to private sector is a radical idea that is based on faith, not reason.
Back in the 1970's whenever one of my socialist friends would spout off about how "if we only had socialism, things would be better".
My respone was to ask them where this has been demonstrated- where is this socialist society that produces both freedom and prosperity, so we might study it and learn from it?
The answer was always that it wasn't here yet, but it says right here in a book that if we did...
at which point they lost me.

So here we have people advocating that we turn almost all (or entirely all, I can't tell) government services over to the private sector, that if we only had "laissez faire free market, things would be better."

And so I have to ask- where is this modern industrialized society that produces both freedom and prosperity, based on nothing more than the private markets, with no government regulation or services?


With no regulation or services? Doesnt exist, nor should it.

With minimal regulation and services? It was here for a damn long time, and did extremely well until......overly burdensome regulations and redistributon of wealth in the guise of "services".

(in reply to AnimusRex)
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RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/19/2009 1:06:44 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

I think I rely or trust the government far less than your average person. I would prefer the reach of government to be much less almost everywhere.

However... the government does have some necessary functions, IMO, that I do to one degree or another rely on.

1. Roads.
2. Police.
3. Fire Stations
4. Help for impoverished kids, though I really don't like the current system of just giving the parents money, or food stamps.
5. Some assurance of ability to get a high school education, that doesn't necessarily mean they should run the all the schools receiving funds.
6. Some assistance for the permanently disabled, again I think the current system is not correct in its handling of the situation.
7. Military..
8. Relations with foreign countries.

Not an exhaustive list just some off the top of my head.

In my ideal world, there would still be a government, however, it would probably be a fifth the size.

IMO, we are getting way to close to the extreme end of extreme government involvement.


With the exception of 4 and 6 these are all "common good" services with significant free rider problems. 4 and 6 can arguably be accomplished without government intervention, and in fact was for centuries via family and charities. I dont think anyone except extreme libertarians object to that kind of support, however, as long as it is administered strictly enough to avoid fraud.

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RE: Why do you rely on and trust the Government? - 11/19/2009 1:26:31 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Can I just ask if the people who are whining about about having an uppity nigger in the white house trusted the government during the previous administration?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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