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paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 7:45:30 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		The situation of Paul and Rachel Chandler, who were kidnapped by Somali pirates a month ago off the coast of Mauritius, is now becoming desperate.

The pirates have demanded an unreasonable £4million ransom for them, which they, their friends and family have no chance of raising, and which the British government will not countenance based on their stated position of not paying ransoms in any circumstances.

The Chandlers are just an ordinary middle class couple in their 50s who had been sailing the world, the fulfilment of life long ambition. In the broadcast of film taken of them earlier this week, they expressed their concerns that they would either be maltreated or killed or handed over to Somali Islamic terrorist groups in the near future, the pirates becoming increasingly annoyed that no one has been in touch to commence negotiations for their release.

Should the British government relent in this instance? Or should it allow the Chandlers to die or be handed over to terrorists?

Thus far it would seem the stance is clear - no ransoms will be paid, and equally clear is that the sizeable naval force in the area has no chance of making a successful rescue.

E

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RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 7:48:34 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		A couple die for Queen and Country.......
Level the fucking shithole.......
Not all situations are solvable to everyones satisfaction and wellbeing......
Ron

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RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 8:03:36 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Some would argue though Ron, that we have reduced them to piracy by levelling the shithole in the first place.

This is a lose-lose situation, but there is only one way the Chandlers have a hope of coming home.

Government response is as usual weak when it comes to any ordinary person in trouble overseas; as a Brit, youre on your own in whatever situation it might be, whatever the appearance portrayed of hectic concern and behind the scenes activity.

The Labour government and the bankers ought to look at this as a way to somewhat rehabilitate themselves; the first by negotiating a more sensible ransom and the second by contributing their bonus money to paying it.

E

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RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 8:27:46 AM   
rockspider


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Status: offline 		Well that Somali situation. We did have a warship stationed down there. When they did catch some of those pirates it ended that they put them ashore with a slap on the wrist telling them not to do it again. Hell i didn't know whether to laugh or cry. There is no doubt that the situation could be solved virtually overnight if the politician involved had the guts to do the necessary. Those pirates have no respect what so ever for law and order. Only raw and brutal power. Well the yanks got a simple creedo. Send the marines. Every single ship laying off the coast of Somalia in the hands of pirates should find them self suddenly in the presence of a warship, with the apache helicopters hovering above and special ops forces been lowered down from hueyes. The forces under order to shoot first and ask silly questions later. No prisoners to be taken. Some warships stationen in the area with helicopters on board surveying every craft coming of the coast and if they armed like the pirates blast them out of the waters. Nothing on board their boats remotely challenges the firepower of an Apache. When that happens a few times the problem ceases to exist overnight. Sorry guys, we got so fucking soft that we let us terrorise by a rag tag bunch of simple criminals. I bow my head in shame over that it was our boys who did release those pricks they caught redhanded. A decision coming from some gutless pricks sitting in Copenhagen in the comfort of their big fat offices. They really are to blame for the Chandlers fate. Not our soldiers on board the ships.

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RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 8:50:58 AM   
DedicatedDom40


Posts: 350
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline 		Mixed feelings. 

If pirates were active, I would have chosen another venue for my trip of a lifetime.

Its kinda like all the public money that goes into search and rescue of standed hikers on a mountain in the middle of a winter storm.  Should public money be used to rescue thrill seekers?

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RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 8:56:19 AM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		The understanding in  maritime definition of piracy, is crimes carried at sea by private individuals for private ends. So if that is the case, these current pirates are outlaws in the country they hail from, as I am sure piracy there is against their laws too. So if  a pirate threat to shipping exists, then the country whose waters the pirates operate in should be told to sort it out, else risk others sorting it out. If there is a threat to shipping, it needs resolving, send a warship there to blast the things out of the water, as was that not the purpose of military vessels in the first place, protect shipping and there trade.

Ransoms, though they have been paid in antiquity, Europe paid the Barbary pirates for a quiet life, they should not be paid, these current pirates demand what they do, however unreasonable it is, because they can, perhaps they have no expectation of really getting what they demand, but why not give it a go, as the publicity the case generates they know is sure to act in their favour, they may even get the large sum they demand, there is always an outside chance.

But these present day pirates know also it is unlikely that a foreign warship will hunt them down, as they know foreign powers are very scared about what they do in foreign waters, they know military action will be seen worldwide, and there condemned, so in reality, they are sitting pretty until the unexpected happens, and needs to happen to protect all shipping, be that trade or other.

All it needs, is an old time raider, a warship disguised as a merchant ship, lure them in with promises of fat goods to be seized, then drop the hoardings and blast them out of the water.


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RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 8:58:39 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DedicatedDom40

Mixed feelings. 

If pirates were active, I would have chosen another venue for my trip of a lifetime.

Its kinda like all the public money that goes into search and rescue of standed hikers on a mountain in the middle of a winter storm.  Should public money be used to rescue thrill seekers?



As an experienced mountain hiker, I can tell you that I and everyone experienced I know takes a very, very negative view of these morons. To go unprepared, to take unnecessary risks, to put the lives of others at risk to rescue them--well, let's just say I agree with the NH law that CHARGES them for the expense. That doesn't help with the lost lives of rescuers.

It's worse with GPS. These idiots feel safe. They don't get that (1) we know where you are, but (2) that doesn't mean we can get there safely or (3) in time to save your moronic ass. Additionally, some people have pushed the panic button indicating they need help, but what kind of help? It has to be treated as an emergency, when turns out often they're fine for a few days.





< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 11/21/2009 9:00:03 AM >

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RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 8:58:57 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		FR

I have to agree with Ron. I would go even farther. I would ask the pirates if they have any family back home, and if they say yes, obliterate their country. "Now MF you wanna play ?''

In other words if the US, Britain and Israel want to play boss of the world, godammit act like it. We dessimate countries because some of their citizens support the dictator we installed for them. Because they didn't change their mind when we did. So if they are going to walk tall and carry a big stick, go take care of business.

Then go find them pirates and use a twenty ton punch press to kill a flea. No survivors.

I am not talking out my ass here. If I were the hostage I would welcome death. First of all no more captivity, torture or whatever. Second of all I am not being used as a tool by my enemies. That would be an acceptable circumstance in which to die.

T

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RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 9:15:46 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		That is why, whenever I have to travel to less clement regions of the world, I do so with my Frog passport. The British one is handy for the USA, but nowhere else. I know that if shit happens, the French government is more likely to act on my behalf than the Brits are, with their "we don't negotiate with criminals so fuck you if you're about to die" attitude towards their citizens.



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RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 9:48:03 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		Frog ?

T

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RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 9:48:41 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Slang for French.

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RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 10:01:07 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		I know what it means. Right now I am looking for a phone number, the one for my ex-brother in law of French descent. It may be slang or slur. If the latter is true heads vill rroll !

T

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RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 10:26:30 AM   
pahunkboy


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From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Lady E., do you realize that you are asking for a ramp up in the war on terror?

Think of what the population will have to go thru if the government even attempted to solve this problem.

The might pass a law saying a ship must hire competent security detail- like blackwater....the list is endless of possible regulations.

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RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 10:33:31 AM   
AnimusRex


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: DedicatedDom40
Should public money be used to rescue thrill seekers?

To go unprepared, to take unnecessary risks, to put the lives of others at risk to rescue them--well, let's just say I agree with the NH law that CHARGES them for the expense.


As a fellow hiker, I agree wholeheartedly. As for piracy and ransom, there isn't a good solution. Everyone who has been fed a diet of Die Hard movies imagines the commandos can go in and blow away the bad guys and go home while the credits roll.

If we want to encourage more of it, pay the ransom. If we don't, then don't.

Sorry.

We in the America have a hard time realizing that the world is not our Disneyland, with attendants to follow behind us and sweep up our mess. We get surprised when an American teenager who vandalizes a car in Singapore is given a brutal caning; we are shocked when American tourists are robbed/ kidnapped/ murdered/ trifled with while touring the most desperate, lawless, ungoverned places on earth.

We somehow imagine that there is an invisible force field of protection created by our blue passports; the fact that Somalis and Congolese and Thai and every other citizen fo the 3rd World endures this same level of danger and risk and that they routinely suffer violence and heartbreak and injustice barely registers on our minds. Yet let an American get his wallet lifted in a market in Morrocco and we are outraged, simply outraged.

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RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 11:00:06 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		When I was at Merchant Navy college, I was told about attempted piratic actions in various parts of the world, they have always happened, it is par for the course in some parts of the world, but there were always measures that could be took to dissuade all but the most determined ass hole. One was dropping 25 litre paint tins full of water onto the decks of wooden vessels from the height of the taff rail on a merchant ship, with inevitable results, it went through the deck and pursuaded more water to come on board the boat, would be pirates soon loose interest when their boat gets lower in the water. Another was action by so called 'bum boats', they used to hassle vessels for rope mooring hawsers. Cool, to stop the hassle which included the bum boats cutting across the bow of the merchant vessel, they gave them the hawsers, which they attached to their bum boat and there motor off dragging the hawser in the water. An end was put to this, by lobbing a bight of the hawser over a capstan winch and ripping the back end of the boat off.

Not really an answer in todays world, but merchant vessels should be able to protect themselves, as merchant vessels have done in the past, sailing vessels often had at least a brace of canon, or a grapeshot gun to repel boarders, they had a fighting chance against being murdered for their cargo.

But, pleasure craft, do we really believe the world is such a tame place that we can do as we like, I have had a one time colleague murdered for the electronics on his craft in the Carribean, pleasure craft say wealth, others who want wealth do desperate things, especially so when they have not even the basics we have to be poor. There is no way I would sail in areas where the west does not have that great an influence, especially so knowing Britain does not give a shit about non important people. If I had to sail in dangerous waters, a high power hunting rifle, followed by a short range scatter gun would have pride of place on my boat, and of course a verry pistol has it's uses.


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RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 11:00:18 AM   
travelgman


Posts: 187
Joined: 2/1/2008
Status: offline 		Putting aside the issue of the couple who sailed their own boat into this mess for a minute. What I want to know is why these big shipping companies can not hire protection for their own boats that sail through these waters. These pirates are not well armed. So it wouldn't take more than a few well trained men per ship and maybe some sort of high powered heavy caliber machine gun nest on each side of the boat that could shoot their wooden boats right out of the water. Seems to me this could be taken care of fairly easily and for that matter paying the security guys would more than likely be cheaper than paying the ransoms. Offense is the best Defense.

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RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 11:37:53 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: travelgman

Putting aside the issue of the couple who sailed their own boat into this mess for a minute. What I want to know is why these big shipping companies can not hire protection for their own boats that sail through these waters. These pirates are not well armed. So it wouldn't take more than a few well trained men per ship and maybe some sort of high powered heavy caliber machine gun nest on each side of the boat that could shoot their wooden boats right out of the water. Seems to me this could be taken care of fairly easily and for that matter paying the security guys would more than likely be cheaper than paying the ransoms. Offense is the best Defense.


Travel, yes but that would make too much sense.
Many countries don't want merchantmen to be "armed" and won't let them in their ports if they are.
That's simple to rectify, the shipping cos. should simply say that they will no longer provide service to any country that that does that. Those countries will start hurting within a week. After a month their economies would collapse.
So, the shipping cos. do hold the upper hand and they should use it! Even if only 2 or 3 shipping cos. did that they could wreak havoc on a countrie's economy. Can you imagine no shipments of oil or food for a week or two? Or car parts or cars?
It's dangerous enough going to sea without having to deal with pirates and ransomes and kidnappings! Sailors should always have the means to defend themselves!


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RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 11:52:08 AM   
pahunkboy


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From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		People get car jacked every week in US cities....  we have police, sheriff, insurance, license plates, cameras, FBI, homeland  security, FEMA, 911, we have cell phones, we have jails, courts and so on.

So in theory this would be fixed.     in theory.

Some screwball lights his shoe on fire on an airplane- so now everyone has to take off their shoes before getting on a plane. Assuming you are not on the no fly list... (in that case you may pilot the aircraft)


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RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 12:54:25 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Lady E., do you realize that you are asking for a ramp up in the war on terror?

Think of what the population will have to go thru if the government even attempted to solve this problem.

The might pass a law saying a ship must hire competent security detail- like blackwater....the list is endless of possible regulations.


The pirates aren't terrorists, though. They're more interested in money than the jihad.

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RE: paying ransoms to pirates - 11/21/2009 12:58:36 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		This would not be an issue if the navy had intervened in the first place.  So if the randsom is paid, take it out of the navel budget.

the.dark.

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