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Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 11/29/2009 10:19:22 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		I will start with the caveat that this thread has the potential to become controversial and it is my hope that rather, it sparks intelligent reflection on desires.

Sadism is pleasure in the infliction of pain or humiliation upon another person, while masochism refers to gratification from receiving the pain and humiliation.

That being said, I'm wondering to which degree sadists get off more on a willing or reluctant subject. One thing that lead me to want to discuss this is a line in a longer post made by Akasha in another thread in Ask A Mistress.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
This is why I don't generally connect with masochists, but more with men who get excited by a woman who bends his will and uses pain as a tool. I enjoy a man who wants to be seduced into desiring pain for me, because it turns me on, not turns him on.


This has had me thinking quite a bit of how I approach my sadistic tendencies. I get so hot on seeing a man squirm. I like when he doesn't exactly like it and I'm hoping that in time he grows to crave it. I like the conflict of desires. This is why I'm such a fan of predicament bondage.

So when faced with a boy who is begging me to hurt him, I tend to get turned off. I make a parallel with this and a scene from one of my favorite television series ever, True Blood:

quote:

Fangbanger as Eric sucks her neck: “Ohhh that's it, baby.”
Eric: “Baby? I'm over 1,000 years old.”
Fangbanger: “Are you not having a good time?”
Eric: “Well there's just not much thrill left in feeding on the willing.”
Fangbanger: “Then should I try pretending not to want it?”
Eric: “Only if you're very, very good at it.”


I'd really like to hear a variety or perspectives on this subject.

- LA


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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 11/29/2009 10:38:06 AM   
Underumam


Posts: 485
Joined: 12/18/2008
Status: offline 		lol. Very interesting thread...

If I understand you correctly, the point is wanting our opinions on a boy who wants to be physically abused-and it's a turn-off for you, as compared to one who doesn't and you do it anyhow receiving an immense pleasure because you have conquered the unwilling. C'est comme votre thread about "hunting"...lol.

For me, NOT being a masochist, I won't lie- being hunted and taken/abused has a fantasy appeal, but deep inside I wouldn't be able to reconcile the abuse with my day brain and/or sexual desires. Therefore, IF something masochistic were to happen to me, it would most definitely be against my will, and I don't know how I'd react after the fact. So wouldn't what you're referring to be more like a rape scene?

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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 11/29/2009 10:51:55 AM   
antipode


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quote:

I'm wondering to which degree sadists get off more on a willing or reluctant subject


depends

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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 11/29/2009 10:53:52 AM   
udderlicious


Posts: 3
Joined: 11/28/2009
Status: offline 		I would say I am hardly a masochist. Some pain does turn me on, I won't lie, but the biggest part of the turn on is seeing my owner react to my reaction..if that makes sense. It's seeing how far I can go outside of what I normally think I can take in order to bring him pleasure.

I am not sure if that's what a sadist looks for, but it's just who I am.


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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 11/29/2009 10:54:15 AM   
LadyAngelika


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Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam

lol. Very interesting thread...

If I understand you correctly, the point is wanting our opinions on a boy who wants to be physically abused-and it's a turn-off for you, as compared to one who doesn't and you do it anyhow receiving an immense pleasure because you have conquered the unwilling.


It's not exactly a turn off totally, it just seems to defeat the purpose for me. Gosh, I don't even know if that's the right way to phrase it. See? This is why I'd like a variety of perspectives!

quote:

C'est comme votre thread about "hunting"...lol.


It definitely has similarities and parallels. But that's because I'm pretty consistent ;-)

But think it has some distinctions as I'm talking less about Domination and submission but more about Sadism and masochism. It might be less about seduction, I'm not sure yet. Also, I'm addressing the general population and not just the dominant women in Ask A Mistress.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam
For me, NOT being a masochist, I won't lie- being hunted and taken/abused has a fantasy appeal, but deep inside I wouldn't be able to reconcile the abuse with my day brain and/or sexual desires. Therefore, IF something masochistic were to happen to me, it would most definitely be against my will, and I don't know how I'd react after the fact. So wouldn't what you're referring to be more like a rape scene?


I fantasize more about Prisoner of War ;-)

That said, I have a conflict of desires because even if I have fantasies of torturing someone against their will, I would never do it because I have other morals that balance off my sadistic side which stop me from being a psychopath.

- LA


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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 11/29/2009 10:55:19 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: antipode

quote:

I'm wondering to which degree sadists get off more on a willing or reluctant subject


depends


On what?

- LA


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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 11/29/2009 11:09:55 AM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I happen to be a regular sado-masochist, that is.. someone who needs this whether or not there is sensual or emotional content. As a maso, I can get relief from pain even if it is non-consensual. AND, I can feel pain as pain and not want it, but accept it as part of my life. And I can love and beg for pain because it turns me on and because it is turning him on.
As a sadist I enjoy torturing men who beg for it, who need it because it turns them on. AND.. I can get enjoyment from kicking the shit out of someone because they created a need to defend myself, or it is my job, or in defense of another.
For be, because I prefer making people happy, I need to know I am causing pain for a reason. Not to make myself happy but because they want it, or deserve it. I would not cause pain because I felt a need to do it to make me happy. That is why I am also a self serving maso, I can cause pain on myself to aid in that end.


< Message edited by Missokyst -- 11/29/2009 11:10:47 AM >

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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 11/29/2009 11:13:16 AM   
AAkasha


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I remember that scene in True Blood, and I chuckled a bit at it and thought the same thing that you did.

As a sadist and/or top (the same goes for pain as well as bondage), my "most delicious prey" is a man who does not like either, but endures it because he likes how it makes me feel.  This is often joe-vanilla-guy, with the potential to say "hey, can we stop with the S&M games?" so that's a bit dangerous - but I feel like I spent all of my late teens and early 20s trying to seduce men into craving, wanting, needing to surrender to me, despite them being scared, uncomfortable and vulnerable.  That conflict is awesome.

The second type of "good prey" that serves up a tasty treat for me is a man who has a love/hate relationship with bondage and pain or helplessness.  He has a healthy does of fear and uncertainty, but he is so drawn to it, he can't resist.  This is the "sweet spot" of self-identified submissives/bottoms for me, the ones that are bonafide, card-carrying kinky people but are not draining to me.  However, they have to be sure (and trained accordingly) to be in touch with those feelings of fear/vulnerability and SHOW those to me, and not focus on the "OH, GOODY!!!!" feelings they are also overwhelmed with.

The third type is the type that loves the hell out of it all, but is a seasoned roleplayer and can fake it better than a shut-down vanilla can show it.  I don't mind some good roleplaying if he can "trick" my femdom brain, even if we both know, deep down, he's just faking it.  But damn, it has to be so authentic that his roleplaying is better than mr. innocent vanilla guy.  I have had this with acting-types and it was goooooooood, but I am not sure it would sustain for the long haul.

Of course there are mixes of the above, but those are my most favorite types of men to make endure thing. 

One thing that has been rolling around in my head lately with these threads is how much of an aphrodisiac "nervousness" is for me.  Again, as long as it's real, or totally believable.   But it has to be nervousness from an alpha type, or nervousness that is charming and innocent.  I think that points back to the underlying rule that trumps all for me however: Chemistry is king.  All of this goes out the window if I really, really am attracted to someone - then, it becomes a matter of me molding his submissive/bottoming style to my liking, and I am so willing to overlook some perceived inadequacies.

Akasha


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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 11/29/2009 11:17:06 AM   
Underumam


Posts: 485
Joined: 12/18/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam

lol. Very interesting thread...

If I understand you correctly, the point is wanting our opinions on a boy who wants to be physically abused-and it's a turn-off for you, as compared to one who doesn't and you do it anyhow receiving an immense pleasure because you have conquered the unwilling.


It's not exactly a turn off totally, it just seems to defeat the purpose for me. Gosh, I don't even know if that's the right way to phrase it. See? This is why I'd like a variety of perspectives!

quote:

C'est comme votre thread about "hunting"...lol.


It definitely has similarities and parallels. But that's because I'm pretty consistent ;-)

But think it has some distinctions as I'm talking less about Domination and submission but more about Sadism and masochism. It might be less about seduction, I'm not sure yet. Also, I'm addressing the general population and not just the dominant women in Ask A Mistress.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam
For me, NOT being a masochist, I won't lie- being hunted and taken/abused has a fantasy appeal, but deep inside I wouldn't be able to reconcile the abuse with my day brain and/or sexual desires. Therefore, IF something masochistic were to happen to me, it would most definitely be against my will, and I don't know how I'd react after the fact. So wouldn't what you're referring to be more like a rape scene?


I fantasize more about Prisoner of War ;-)

That said, I have a conflict of desires because even if I have fantasies of torturing someone against their will, I would never do it because I have other morals that balance off my sadistic side which stop me from being a psychopath.

- LA



lol... POW. That might be fun...lol.

If you have morals that balance your sadistic side, what's your struggle with all this? And I seriously doubt if your sadistic desires would brand you as a psychopath around here. lol.

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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 11/29/2009 11:51:09 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		OP my question when something like this comes up is always: What happens when you've taught him to enjoy it? Do you have to end the relationship with him because he's no longer finding it unenjoyable? If so, do you tell him in the beginning that the relationship has a built in end date? Because if you don't tell him beforehand that you'll be kicking him out once he's learned to like it, then you're being unethical.

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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 11/29/2009 11:59:32 AM   
Underumam


Posts: 485
Joined: 12/18/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

OP my question when something like this comes up is always: What happens when you've taught him to enjoy it? Do you have to end the relationship with him because he's no longer finding it unenjoyable? If so, do you tell him in the beginning that the relationship has a built in end date? Because if you don't tell him beforehand that you'll be kicking him out once he's learned to like it, then you're being unethical.


WOW Des!!! That's one of the best considerations anyone's made on subjects like this in quite a while. What would happen if a person such as myself should become "turned out" and no longer function as a "normal" man again? Would I in fact be kicked to the curb once I started liking it? Not many think of the long term ramifications to snaring others in their kinks. Thanks for the input.

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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 11/29/2009 12:01:57 PM   
Rochsub2009


Posts: 2536
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
I get so hot on seeing a man squirm. I like when he doesn't exactly like it and I'm hoping that in time he grows to crave it. I like the conflict of desires. This is why I'm such a fan of predicament bondage.


Lady Angelika,
i understand completely the conflict of desires that You describe.  i am very open about the fact that i do not find pain to be erotic.  i am not a pain slut, and would be quite happy if pain were not a part of my relationships. 

However, i must admit that i have at times enjoyed being subjected to pain.  But to be clear it was NEVER the pain that i enjoyed.  Rather, it was the joy that it brought to my Mistress.  It is not easy to find joy in something that i fundamentally don't enjoy. But i find times like this to be when my truest submission comes out.  It is easy to submit to something that i enjoy.  It is much harder to submit to things that i don't enjoy.  At those times, it is clearest to me that i am putting my Mistress' desires above my own, and my submission feels "purer". 

i have even found that on multiple occasions i have grown to crave the thing that i despise.  Rimming is one specific example.  i once served a Domme who LOVED having Her ass licked.  The first time She commanded me to do it, i thought it was disgusting. But nothing else seemed to give Her the pleasure that this one act brought Her.  In time, i longed for Her to command me to lick Her ass, though both the act and the longing made me feel ashamed.  i'm not sure if that makes sense, but i can assure You that the internal struggle of knowing that She had made me crave something that i despised and was ashamed of was quite profound.

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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 11/29/2009 12:05:34 PM   
Rochsub2009


Posts: 2536
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
OP my question when something like this comes up is always: What happens when you've taught him to enjoy it? Do you have to end the relationship with him because he's no longer finding it unenjoyable? If so, do you tell him in the beginning that the relationship has a built in end date? Because if you don't tell him beforehand that you'll be kicking him out once he's learned to like it, then you're being unethical.


Hmmmmm, very interesting perspective.  i hadn't thought of that built-in dilemma.

One point for DesFIP. 

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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 11/29/2009 12:08:18 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
The third type is the type that loves the hell out of it all, but is a seasoned roleplayer and can fake it better than a shut-down vanilla can show it.  I don't mind some good roleplaying if he can "trick" my femdom brain, even if we both know, deep down, he's just faking it.  But damn, it has to be so authentic that his roleplaying is better than mr. innocent vanilla guy.  I have had this with acting-types and it was goooooooood, but I am not sure it would sustain for the long haul.


It better be an Oscar worthy performance!!

quote:


Of course there are mixes of the above, but those are my most favorite types of men to make endure thing.
 
Agreed.

quote:

One thing that has been rolling around in my head lately with these threads is how much of an aphrodisiac "nervousness" is for me.  Again, as long as it's real, or totally believable.   But it has to be nervousness from an alpha type, or nervousness that is charming and innocent.  I think that points back to the underlying rule that trumps all for me however: Chemistry is king.  All of this goes out the window if I really, really am attracted to someone - then, it becomes a matter of me molding his submissive/bottoming style to my liking, and I am so willing to overlook some perceived inadequacies.


Yes. I understand what you are saying 100%. I like to destabilize the other. That's part of my "game".

- LA




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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 11/29/2009 12:15:59 PM   
LadyAngelika


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Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

OP my question when something like this comes up is always: What happens when you've taught him to enjoy it? Do you have to end the relationship with him because he's no longer finding it unenjoyable? If so, do you tell him in the beginning that the relationship has a built in end date? Because if you don't tell him beforehand that you'll be kicking him out once he's learned to like it, then you're being unethical.


You asked me a very similar question on another thread and address this (see bottom of post). I will therefore permit myself to give you the same answer, slightly elaborated:

I can't speak for other women, but once I capture a man and lead him down this path, I absolutely don't want to let him go. I am looking for a long lasting relationship with someone who gets me and what it is that I need. I have had similar relationships in the past. They worked well while they lasted, however, other factors have lead to the demise of the relationships.
quote:

SOURCE: Antoine de Saint-Exupery, from one of my favorite books ever, Le Petit Prince, translated to English (and invert the gender!)
"You're lovely, but you're empty," he went on. "One couldn't die for you. Of course an ordinary passerby would think my rose looked just like you. But my rose, all on her own, is more important than you altogether, since she's the one I've watered. Since she's the one I put under glass. Since she's the one I sheltered behind a screen. Since she's the one for whom I killed the caterpillars (except for two or three for butterflies). Since's she the one I listened to when she complained, or when she boasted, or even sometimes when she said nothing at all. Since she's my rose."
- LA



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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 11/29/2009 12:19:15 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

i have even found that on multiple occasions i have grown to crave the thing that i despise. Rimming is one specific example. i once served a Domme who LOVED having Her ass licked. The first time She commanded me to do it, i thought it was disgusting. But nothing else seemed to give Her the pleasure that this one act brought Her. In time, i longed for Her to command me to lick Her ass, though both the act and the longing made me feel ashamed. i'm not sure if that makes sense, but i can assure You that the internal struggle of knowing that She had made me crave something that i despised and was ashamed of was quite profound.


I think that is exactly it. And this conflict of desires doesn't go away so quickly, and it can be layered and played with, in which case, as long as we are creative, we never really get bored of the boy! We just love him more each time he does it.

- LA


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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 11/29/2009 12:46:36 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

WOW Des!!! That's one of the best considerations anyone's made on subjects like this in quite a while.


Actually it was made just a few days ago, and address by not only myself but 2 others.

It's the exact same thing as what happens when the sex gets mundane in a vanilla relationship and the thrill is gone. Gotta spice it up!

- LA


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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 11/29/2009 12:56:09 PM   
AAkasha


Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

WOW Des!!! That's one of the best considerations anyone's made on subjects like this in quite a while.


Actually it was made just a few days ago, and address by not only myself but 2 others.

It's the exact same thing as what happens when the sex gets mundane in a vanilla relationship and the thrill is gone. Gotta spice it up!

- LA



This question coming up and assumption that those of us with a lust for predatory made me reflect on my past long term relationships, including the one I am in now.  I was not serially single, as you would assume, because I got bored with men once they "gave in" - I've had a lot of relationships that were several years in length and the break up had nothing to do with kink.

In my experience, when you connect with someone on a deeper level of undestanding, including his understanding of your kink side, there's a fairly large capacity to keep things fresh -- and, on top of that, the benefits of being in a mutually loving relationship outweigh the quick-fix lusts of being predatory night after night.  As hedonsistic as it is, it can get *lonely*.  Deep affection and romance in the context of a long term relationship can easily outweigh the most authentic thrill of the hunt; but MORE important is that a man that really gets inside the femdom brain is able to keep it fresh and alive on a much deeper level because he "gets" her. 

Akasha


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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 11/29/2009 12:56:28 PM   
Underumam


Posts: 485
Joined: 12/18/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

WOW Des!!! That's one of the best considerations anyone's made on subjects like this in quite a while.


Actually it was made just a few days ago, and address by not only myself but 2 others.

It's the exact same thing as what happens when the sex gets mundane in a vanilla relationship and the thrill is gone. Gotta spice it up!

- LA




Excuse moi...lol.

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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 11/29/2009 12:58:13 PM   
Acer49


Posts: 1434
Joined: 8/7/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

I will start with the caveat that this thread has the potential to become controversial and it is my hope that rather, it sparks intelligent reflection on desires.

Sadism is pleasure in the infliction of pain or humiliation upon another person, while masochism refers to gratification from receiving the pain and humiliation.

That being said, I'm wondering to which degree sadists get off more on a willing or reluctant subject. One thing that lead me to want to discuss this is a line in a longer post made by Akasha in another thread in Ask A Mistress.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
This is why I don't generally connect with masochists, but more with men who get excited by a woman who bends his will and uses pain as a tool. I enjoy a man who wants to be seduced into desiring pain for me, because it turns me on, not turns him on.


This has had me thinking quite a bit of how I approach my sadistic tendencies. I get so hot on seeing a man squirm. I like when he doesn't exactly like it and I'm hoping that in time he grows to crave it. I like the conflict of desires. This is why I'm such a fan of predicament bondage.

So when faced with a boy who is begging me to hurt him, I tend to get turned off. I make a parallel with this and a scene from one of my favorite television series ever, True Blood:

quote:

Fangbanger as Eric sucks her neck: “Ohhh that's it, baby.”
Eric: “Baby? I'm over 1,000 years old.”
Fangbanger: “Are you not having a good time?”
Eric: “Well there's just not much thrill left in feeding on the willing.”
Fangbanger: “Then should I try pretending not to want it?”
Eric: “Only if you're very, very good at it.”


I'd really like to hear a variety or perspectives on this subject.

- LA



A few thoughts
1-Do not court a masochist, find someone who is willing to submit to your sadistic desires
2- there is no rule that says a submissive needs to enjoy or crave all of the dominant's activities
3-I think that what a submissive needs is opportunities to stretch their abilities to submit, the type of activity is unimportant
4- Desiring a submissiive to crave the activity, reduces the dominant to no more than a prop, which the submissive uses to have their own personal needs of that activity met. I would not think that a dominant would desire that, this is not to say that I think a submissive's needs should not be met, I strongly believe that regardless of role, both parties ultimately must have their needs met.

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Harvey Fierstein

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