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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 11/30/2009 3:56:34 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

To this day I have to constantly reconcile (good) feelings of real female guilt over my sadistic desires despite engaging with a willing partner; this guilt reminds me that I am human and loving. I cherish it.  If I didn't have these kinds of discussions online about 10 years ago about the process of guilt, I may have started repressing and become pretty messed up.

I like to discuss the carnal lust that is my desire to dominate because it's a lust I cannot predict or squash, and I want to continue to express it in a healthy way.  S&m isn't just something I 'do.'


This last bit gave me shivers. It's great to find someone who understands what is going on inside my head because she experiences it in a very similar way.

- LA

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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 11/30/2009 3:58:47 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

~ Fast Pragmatic Point ~

As a sadist I enjoy torturing both the willing and the unwilling. I enjoy physically torturing the willing because it keeps me from being arrested.

I partake in non-consensual mental sadism because, so far, political correctness is not an incarcerating offense.

My enjoyment isn't contingent on how the process of pain is being handled by the recipient; altough having a willing participant provides for opportunities of more intensity. I think the distinguishing point between me and the sexual sadist psychopaths that make the rounds on the crime dramas is that i do have empathy for my 'victims'; at least on the physical side. Mentally, emotionally, if they can't keep up, or can't handle it - fuck 'em!

Also purely pragmatic on the physical side, having a modicum of consideration for the masochist's needs is important to keep them coming back. It lures them into 'going deeper' into their fantasies and desires providing ongoing opportunity to satiate my sadistic desires. You can only kill a cow once - you can milk it every day.



Merc,

First, nice to find you are still here. I know we didn't always agree on everything in the past, but let me tell you, that this post was quite insightful and though you called it a fast pragmatic reply, I like the way you explained how the assumed lack of empathy of a sadist is reconciled within the sexual/sensual sadist that plays with a certain moral code and a head relatively well screwed on.

Thanks. A lot.

- LA

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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 11/30/2009 8:08:55 PM   
HorrorGroupie


Posts: 7
Joined: 10/29/2008
Status: offline 		*sigh* see this is where I run into issues myself...I tend to enjoy pain (or begin to REAL quick).  And what I run into is Sadist types who get bored with that and stop...they just stop because what they did didn't really hurt or bother me.  So....I'm really bewildered, I mean REALLY am I supposed to NOT like it??

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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 11/30/2009 11:05:54 PM   
sophiesback


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I for one am man enough, if you are woman enough.

Ron


Tis not nice to tease, Ron!

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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 12/1/2009 3:56:01 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika


  • To this, my response in part was "this conflict of desires doesn't go away so quickly, and it can be layered and played with, in which case, as long as we are creative, we never really get bored of the boy! We just love him more each time he does it."



Going away so quickly is not the same thing as going away entirely. In six months the conflict will not disappear and possibly not in two years. But in 20 years? Which is what I consider a long term relationship, the conflict will disappear entirely.

What happens when the conflict does disappear entirely? You've avoided answering that repeatedly and instead have been subtly snarky instead. Or can you not sustain a long term relationship once the conflict is gone?

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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 12/1/2009 4:32:47 AM   
ranja


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
  • To this, my response in part was "this conflict of desires doesn't go away so quickly, and it can be layered and played with, in which case, as long as we are creative, we never really get bored of the boy! We just love him more each time he does it."




Going away so quickly is not the same thing as going away entirely. In six months the conflict will not disappear and possibly not in two years. But in 20 years? Which is what I consider a long term relationship, the conflict will disappear entirely.

What happens when the conflict does disappear entirely? You've avoided answering that repeatedly and instead have been subtly snarky instead. Or can you not sustain a long term relationship once the conflict is gone?


you don't know that Des... you don't know if someones conflicts will disappear or not... I don't think my conflicts will ever dissapear... if they would, i think they would have at least lessened by now, i think they are ingrained...

i have been with my Husband for 19 years (and we have been through severely boring times) but the way He has always been able to play with my emotions and how He can enjoy making me struggle and watch me accept Him and please Him... if anything time and so experience has enabled Him to exploit my conflicts more subtly and deeper...

Some people do of course fall out of love... but that is another thing

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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 12/1/2009 5:37:54 AM   
CaringandReal


Posts: 1397
Joined: 2/15/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika


  • To this, my response in part was "this conflict of desires doesn't go away so quickly, and it can be layered and played with, in which case, as long as we are creative, we never really get bored of the boy! We just love him more each time he does it."



Going away so quickly is not the same thing as going away entirely. In six months the conflict will not disappear and possibly not in two years. But in 20 years? Which is what I consider a long term relationship, the conflict will disappear entirely.

What happens when the conflict does disappear entirely? You've avoided answering that repeatedly and instead have been subtly snarky instead. Or can you not sustain a long term relationship once the conflict is gone?



I've had the alleged "conflict" for longer than the time period you mention (20 years). Hasn't gone away yet. Maybe I've just been stubborn all these many years just so I could go on this message board and thumb ny nose at you? ;) Maybe the sun revolves around the earth, too! It's a strange world out there, after all. ;)

More seriously, I think this whole sadism/pain thing appears to be a conflict because it's been phrased that way from the start of the thread, as something tenuous, that has to change. But is it? And does it? For me, it can't change, and reason is extremely simple. I mentally and emotionally crave suffering (not pain, I'm not much of a masochist), always have (my earliest memories are of this craving), so I expect I will until I expire. I get off on anticipating suffering, I get off on thinking about it aftwards, but while it is happening, I just want it to stop. It's awful...while it is going on. Even if I get wet (which I usually do) in response, I don't "feel" wet. I don't feel the arousal, until later, when the pain stops. When playing with a sadist, it always hurts, bad, I always want to escape it, I just want it to end. But within days after it's over, my memory of the suffering will get less sharp. What remains sharp is the memory of being forced to suffer, and that's what arouses me, rather intensely as a matter of fact, and so leads me to want the experience again. That cycle never changes for me. You'd think I'd learn that simplest lesson: pain hurts, and try to avoid it as a result. Of course, I do try to avoid it, in all areas of my life. Except the ones in which I am a powerless victim of someone I am erotically involved with.

There are few things that confirm another person's control over me more than the infliction of shocking, extreme, unwanted pain, and since my fetish for powerlessness is quenchless, I will always seek out that which I hate. Pain is pain, it will still hurt, even if someone perversely trains you to orgasm from it. And for the few seconds of the orgasm, the pain will probably not hurt as bad, as a very powerful sensation can drown out another. But it will hurt up until that poiint and it will hurt after the intense but fleeting plesaure fades.

Other submissives, being different, may experience conflicts or lose their conflict over being tortured. I don't, and I also find it extremely hard to believe that there are not others who experience it as I do.

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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 12/1/2009 7:04:21 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
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Status: offline 		Lets have the real world. The world of fantasists that have only imagined taking such pain. These are the gals and guys that are going to get a shock when they feel the reality of a sadist. These are the people who offer themselves up for everything and anything because in their minds eye they believe themselves to be true masochists.
Its like someone who has just started horse riding that dreams of going on to be a champion. There dream will drive them and they are more likely to become champions than the novice rider that has no desire to do anything other than plod along with the hack.
I would take someone like that any time over someone who just wants domination with a little tickle of pain thrown in.
The fantasists mind is already converted. The reality is that right now they can’t take much pain and they are in for a shock but the mind set is already in place.
I want someone that will take pain for me because they really do want to take that pain and not someone who was just too submissive to say ‘no’.

I put my hand up and admit that many of my sadistic fantasies are unconsensual. of course those fantasies will never be a reality because in the cold light of day I want this to be enjoyed jointly. I want a reaction. I want them to cry, shake and plead with me because without any of that I have no fuel for my sadism.
I don’t want a masochist that can already take so much pain that to push them would be to do permanent harm but I do want someone that desires to go down a route of pain and domination that will rock his/her world.

Would I spit them out once they have reached my level? well my sadistic masochist reached my level some time ago and its been an incredibly bonding experience.

Maria

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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 12/1/2009 10:13:07 AM   
AAkasha


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
  • To this, my response in part was "this conflict of desires doesn't go away so quickly, and it can be layered and played with, in which case, as long as we are creative, we never really get bored of the boy! We just love him more each time he does it."



Going away so quickly is not the same thing as going away entirely. In six months the conflict will not disappear and possibly not in two years. But in 20 years? Which is what I consider a long term relationship, the conflict will disappear entirely.

What happens when the conflict does disappear entirely? You've avoided answering that repeatedly and instead have been subtly snarky instead. Or can you not sustain a long term relationship once the conflict is gone?


I've been in a relationship with my boy for 10 years, married for almost 8.  It's safe to say this is the scenario you are talking about.  The best way I can explain it is to reinforce what I said before; of course, when you have fully captured someone, when you have turned them inside out and basically remolded them (willingly) into someone who is basically addicted to pleasing you, who now finds lust and happiness in suffering and would never be "nervous" around me, it means you've reached a relationship plateau of comfort that far outweighs hedonistic highs.

Do I miss having nervous, unsuspecting prey?  Sure - but those pangs are fleeting.  What I get in return is a partner that understands my sadistic desires on such a thorough level that he can keep it fresh for me, or know when to back of, etc.  What I have now is *predictable ecstasy* which is a different kind of rush than the angst-filled raw need and high that comes from new prey.  For all the men that got me turned inside out with their surprising vulnerability, just as many were huge duds that made me want to pull my hair out with sadness that such delicious prey could be such a boring robot. 

Do I miss the days of being single? Hell no!  Do I miss the romping around and night after night of seducing unsuspecting victims?  Sometimes - but what I have is a treasure far greater.

It's the same as sex for vanilla couples. It can get stale and boring and you can just stop doing it, or you can achieve greater understanding and pleasure in a slightly different flavor.  

And finally, roleplaying works wonders. 

And finally again, I have to say, honestly, when I looked at how I prowled, both online (finding guys to meet, on a whim, down at the coffee shop or whatever, then having my way with them) and at clubs, I think it's just not as safe anymore -- or, I was TERRIBLY naive and just lucky that I did not get hurt. Would I go around seducing men as freely and openly right now, if I could?   I am more likely, now, to eroticize and plot the idea of starting a m/m bondage porn company so I can produce films with hot young lads in heavy restraints, struggling and sweating.  Then I'd have a healthy dose of eye candy minus the risks. :)

Akasha


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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 12/1/2009 1:25:33 PM   
ElanSubdued


Posts: 1511
Status: offline 		DesFIP,

quote:

LadyAngelika to DesFIP:
To this, my response in part was "this conflict of desires doesn't go away so quickly, and it can be layered and played with, in which case, as long as we are creative, we never really get bored of the boy! We just love him more each time he does it."

DesFIP to LadyAngelika:
Going away so quickly is not the same thing as going away entirely. In six months the conflict will not disappear and possibly not in two years. But in 20 years? Which is what I consider a long term relationship, the conflict will disappear entirely. What happens when the conflict does disappear entirely?


If one focuses so minutely on the trees, they'll miss the forest. That's what you're missing here. Relationships mature and change as they continue. You've got this part. By way of fall-through logic though, this doesn't mean dominants who are enticed by the inner conflict submissives sometimes have ("I want this, but I shouldn't / I don't want this, but I do") automatically fall out of love with their partners.

The adage "familiarity breeds laziness or contempt" is an issue often faced in long-term relationships. There are many things partners can do to reinvigorate commitment and to add spice and newness back into a relationship. Just cognizance and (regularly) going out of ones way to do something nice for their partner can have great effect. Akasha brought up roleplay. This works wonders and it doesn't have to be BDSM roleplay. I've gone out on "first dates" with partners I've been living with for years. Putting ourselves in the right headspace... all the newness and shyness returned; we asked each other questions with a little trepidation (because indeed this was an opportunity for either of us to update or change our answers); I gave flowers (which I truly wasn't sure how they'd be received so all the shivers of a first date were there); we shared a first kiss and the moment was awkward, but lovely; we parted and went home separately. Oh, and when we each got home, neither of us said who we were just out with (which was ourselves, of course).

Here's another example, more kinky this time. I'm not a slut (at least, not the bad kind), but in the heat of the moment, being called certain things (for example, a dirty, filthy, whore) makes me feel very conflicted. I'm not a whore, so I feel like I should stop immediately. Ah, but everything feels so good that I want to continue. Then, an inner voice on one shoulder says "just enjoy yourself and stop thinking about these things" followed by a voice from the other loudly proclaiming "but I'm not a slut"! This is all going on as my partner continues tormenting me and I continue grinding into her like the slut I've become at her ministrations. At some point, I let go, revealing a rawness and need that I feel embarrassed about, but that I can't control because my partner knew how to bring this out and I know how to feed this energy back to her, while simultaneously seducing her. The look for reassurance from my partner is always in my eyes and so is my lustful need for my partner. This works *every time* and a few, simple words are the trigger. Some might say this in contrived, but I'm one to think if something works and accomplishes a mutual goal, then go with it.

quote:

DesFIP to LadyAngelika: You've avoided answering that repeatedly and instead have been subtly snarky instead. Or can you not sustain a long term relationship once the conflict is gone?

The OP answered your question previously and did so politely and in a factual way, which may have unintentionally come across as curt. I don't think the OP was meaning to be snarky. On this page alone, ranja, CaringandReal, allthatjaz, Akasha, and now I have answered your question. I think everyone (including the OP) is treating you in a respectful way.

Before reading this thread, as a submissive, I didn't think I had any conflict. I enjoy my inner psyche and inner sexuality, and have been exploring this for many years so I've achieved a great comfort level within myself. Questions the ilk of "mmm, the kiss of the whip feels so good... but, I shouldn't like/need that sort of thing, should I" are things I've long since come to terms with. However, as I continue to mature and learn, I'm amazed at the complexity of emotional and cerebral layers inside my head. There's still plenty of conflict in there and this is conflict I enjoy a lot. :-)

Elan.

< Message edited by ElanSubdued -- 12/1/2009 1:27:09 PM >

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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 12/1/2009 2:45:22 PM   
ElanSubdued


Posts: 1511
Status: offline 		DesFIP and Everyone,

I do so wish Collar Me had a non-timed edit function.  A small correction, but an important one:

By way of fall-through logic though, this doesn't mean dominants who are enticed by the inner conflict submissives sometimes have ("I want this, but I shouldn't / I don't want this, but I do") automatically fall out of love with their partners when that conflict is somewhat resolved or entirely resolved.  And indeed, at any rate, there are many ways to revitalize this kind of energy.

(This is what I intended to write.)

Elan.

< Message edited by ElanSubdued -- 12/1/2009 2:48:36 PM >

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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 12/1/2009 4:51:37 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

I put my hand up and admit that many of my sadistic fantasies are unconsensual. of course those fantasies will never be a reality because in the cold light of day I want this to be enjoyed jointly. I want a reaction. I want them to cry, shake and plead with me because without any of that I have no fuel for my sadism.

I don’t want a masochist that can already take so much pain that to push them would be to do permanent harm but I do want someone that desires to go down a route of pain and domination that will rock his/her world.


This is a great way to describe it. I very much appreciate you sharing this with me. Hearing yours and Akasha's story gives me hope.

quote:

Would I spit them out once they have reached my level? well my sadistic masochist reached my level some time ago and its been an incredibly bonding experience.


This is so very lovely to hear!

- LA

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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 12/1/2009 4:58:17 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

What happens when the conflict does disappear entirely? You've avoided answering that repeatedly and instead have been subtly snarky instead. Or can you not sustain a long term relationship once the conflict is gone?


Nope, not snarky. Direct. Myself and many others have addressed your question many times, most answers which you didn't read. I figured it was more important to direct you to what had been said than to repeat it. I mean, we take the time to answer you, the least you can do is give us the consideration of reading our answers. No?

Now for the avoiding part. What would you like? For me to sign a guarantee that I will never, ever fall out of love with a boy who I've taken as mine? There is no guarantee in life. The one thing that I do know is that, as Elan so eloquantly put it, "Relationships mature and change as they continue".

I'm not so sure why you are insisting over and over for me to give you such an answer to be honest. You might want to reflect on your motives.

- LA

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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 12/2/2009 6:12:01 AM   
DomImus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
That being said, I'm wondering to which degree sadists get off more on a willing or reluctant subject.


Reluctant. By far. I would be turned off by an eager candidate.


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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 12/2/2009 7:51:12 AM   
allthatjaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HorrorGroupie

*sigh* see this is where I run into issues myself...I tend to enjoy pain (or begin to REAL quick).  And what I run into is Sadist types who get bored with that and stop...they just stop because what they did didn't really hurt or bother me.  So....I'm really bewildered, I mean REALLY am I supposed to NOT like it??


Of course a sadist within this sort of lifestyle wants you to enjoy it but they do want a reaction. No reaction to many is very boring indeed.

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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 12/2/2009 10:15:21 AM   
Reform


Posts: 151
Joined: 1/11/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
quote:

ORIGINAL: HorrorGroupie
*sigh* see this is where I run into issues myself...I tend to enjoy pain (or begin to REAL quick).  And what I run into is Sadist types who get bored with that and stop...they just stop because what they did didn't really hurt or bother me.  So....I'm really bewildered, I mean REALLY am I supposed to NOT like it??

Of course a sadist within this sort of lifestyle wants you to enjoy it but they do want a reaction. No reaction to many is very boring indeed.


So should one fake reactions? I (usually) don't make a sound when I'm being beaten

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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 12/2/2009 1:30:41 PM   
HorrorGroupie


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Joined: 10/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz


quote:

ORIGINAL: HorrorGroupie

*sigh* see this is where I run into issues myself...I tend to enjoy pain (or begin to REAL quick).  And what I run into is Sadist types who get bored with that and stop...they just stop because what they did didn't really hurt or bother me.  So....I'm really bewildered, I mean REALLY am I supposed to NOT like it??


Of course a sadist within this sort of lifestyle wants you to enjoy it but they do want a reaction. No reaction to many is very boring indeed.


oh I am not saying I don't react...quite the opposite.  But, my reactions tend to be reactions of great pleasure not squirming, displeasure, or reluctance (most of the time).  And the reactions I get to this are *pause*...*blink, blink* "okay you are way too willing" and *stop*


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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 12/2/2009 1:49:02 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HorrorGroupie

quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz


quote:

ORIGINAL: HorrorGroupie

*sigh* see this is where I run into issues myself...I tend to enjoy pain (or begin to REAL quick).  And what I run into is Sadist types who get bored with that and stop...they just stop because what they did didn't really hurt or bother me.  So....I'm really bewildered, I mean REALLY am I supposed to NOT like it??


Of course a sadist within this sort of lifestyle wants you to enjoy it but they do want a reaction. No reaction to many is very boring indeed.


oh I am not saying I don't react...quite the opposite.  But, my reactions tend to be reactions of great pleasure not squirming, displeasure, or reluctance (most of the time).  And the reactions I get to this are *pause*...*blink, blink* "okay you are way too willing" and *stop*



I don't know what to tell you. I wouldn't recommend faking it, that's for sure. But obviously, there are ways you could communicate with the other so that you can figure out a way to over come this! Is there anything at all that makes you shudder?

I find that when I'm playing with an overly eager masochist, I might make them do things they really don't want to do and use the sadomaso play as a game/reward where I evaluate their performance. That's just one example.

Predicament bondage, where the maso is faced with a conflict of desires is another way to give me the upper hand that I need.

In the end, I find the best way to play with someone with real maso tendencies is with a good old fashion mind fuck ;-)

- LA

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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 12/2/2009 2:06:17 PM   
hazze


Posts: 9
Joined: 8/22/2008
Status: offline 		Really interesting post, and so many inteligent and well thought out replies.
I've really enjoyed reading.


I can see where you are coming from. If someone just stands there and begs you for pain then it bypasses all the fun you get from a scene.
For me I have a need to please. Its not so much about what is done to me, in fact often I do not enjoy that part, its the feeling that the Dom is getting off on doing these things and the feeling of adventure and elation that I am going places I don't want to go and coming back stronger for the experience.

I think maybe the key is keeping the other person of-balance, unsure and a little bit nervous. For someone that is new or does not fully enjoy many of the games then this is easy. For someone that is experienced and enjoys the pain then maybe its quite difficult to take them out of there comfort zone and into some place your sadistic side can enjoy the game.

I think perhaps when someone is enjoying the pain and in their comfort zone it may take away some of the feeling of power. The only power you have is to give them more of something they enjoy.

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RE: Torturing the Willing (or the sado/maso contradiction) - 12/2/2009 2:27:04 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

If someone just stands there and begs you for pain then it bypasses all the fun you get from a scene.


Anybody having that problem with masochists in your life who you don't want to play with because they just "stand there and beg to be beaten" please contact me on the other side. This sadist would be happy to take them off your hands.

"Begging", "pleading", "please sir may I have another", crying out - "OUCH!", screams; all good for me. In any scene, I'm enjoying myself. I hear the slap of the paddle, the snap of the whip, and see the resulting marks and I'm good with that. My "fun" is in the doing. My fun is enhanced when I have a receiving participant that is 'wired' to handle, and/or love, the sensations I'm 'wired' to LOVE and enjoy giving as a sadist. Its "enhanced" because outside a relationship of this type - I'd be arrested; not worrying about that consequence gives me more mental and emotional freedom TO enjoy the experience.

Go ahead, stand there stoical and process as you see fit. You're still providing all the necessary feedback I need to enjoy the experience. Worse case, unable to generate a sob, a cry, a flinch; the marks on your body provide my feedback, and my fun.

Oh and the sound of a submissive, especially my slave beth, begging me for 'another', or even the first one, is erotic, sexual, sensual, and 'double plus FUN!' - for me.

(in reply to hazze)
Profile   Post #: 60
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