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RE: MIT analyst supports Senate Health care plan: Premi... - 12/1/2009 11:46:17 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		Democratic Health Care Legislation Won't Cause Health-Insurance Costs To Rise for Most in U.S., CBO Study Finds - Bloomberg.com

Americans who buy health insurance through their employer wouldn't see a big difference in premiums if the Senate's health care bill becomes law, a non-partisan analysis released Monday predicts.

For the 70% of Americans who will sign up for health insurance through a large company in 2016, average premiums would remain steady or fall by as much as 3% compared with prices if the legislation doesn't pass, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) report said.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=adZlXoSVU2ys

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RE: MIT analyst supports Senate Health care plan: Premi... - 12/2/2009 12:28:40 AM   
Brain


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Mexico's health care lures Americans - USATODAY.com

As the United States debates an overhaul of its health care system, thousands of American retirees in Mexico have quietly found a solution of their own, signing up for the health care plan run by the Mexican Social Security Institute.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2009-08-31-mexico-health-care_N.htm

quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy
Why do folks all over the world come to the US for health care?


Actually, MILLIONAIRES from all over the world come. And that's simply because shortages in the USA are resolved through cash - whoever pays the most gets to the top of the list.

And while you are at it: why do many Southern Californians travel to Tijuana for routine health care? It's one of the main industries in Mexican border towns.

Why do many Americans travel to China, Thailand or various other places for major surgery that is unavailable in the USA for a reasonable cost?

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy
Why are the greatest percentge of diagnostic medical testing and minor surgery centers in the world located around the US/Canada border?


Maybe because the greatest number of affluent people are located between Maine and Philadelphia?

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy
Why should folks who have paid into the current health care system thier entire lives, middle class, lower middle too, and now in the October, November and December's of their lives, not reap the benefits of that investment?


Exactly. Why should HMOs be allowed to raise their premiums or cancel their policies when they get older or sicker?

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy
Why should this new health care reform be paid for by American Citizens for the benefit of people who are not citizens and are not here legally?


Get your facts straight. First, illegal immigrants have been excluded by all the bills to begin with. And even if they hadn't - they account for a minuscule number compared with the approximately 100 million under- or uninsured Americans.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy
Why isn't President Obama and Democrats Party leadership supporting running a fine tooth comb and taking extra ordinary time to make sure this bill is exact and thorough before the vote on it like the have been supporting with the troop increases in Afghanistan?


They aren't? What has been going on for the last couple of months then, where all the various options have been discussed and analyzed over and over?

And, for that matter, we have had a drawn-out debate about health care for 40 years, and nothing got done with all the debating. It's time to finally DO something.




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RE: MIT analyst supports Senate Health care plan: Premi... - 12/2/2009 3:29:39 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Depending on education, years of experience and location a fireman can make between $35,000 and $70,000 per year. Median salary, $45,000.
Most are volunteers, and many are required to have EMT training.

http://firemansalary.com/

quote:

Police and sheriff’s patrol officers had median annual earnings of $47,460 in May 2006. The middle 50 percent earned between $35,600 and $59,880. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $27,310, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $72,450. Median annual earnings were $43,510 in Federal Government, $52,540 in State government, and $47,190 in local government.

In May 2006, median annual earnings of police and detective supervisors were $69,310. The middle 50 percent earned between $53,900 and $83,940. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $41,260, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $104,410. Median annual earnings were $85,170 in Federal Government, $68,990 in State government, and $68,670 in local government.

In May 2006, median annual earnings of detectives and criminal investigators were $58,260. The middle 50 percent earned between $43,920 and $76,350. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $34,480, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $92,590. Median annual earnings were $69,510 in Federal Government, $49,370 in State government, and $52,520 in local government.


http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos160.htm

Many police at the local level are only required to have a high school diploma.

quote:

The median expected salary for a typical Staff Nurse - RN in the United States is $61,323


http://www.elearners.com/guide-to-online-education/average-salary-for-nurses.asp

RN's are required to get at least a two year degree and pass mandatory, rigorous testing to prove competency. Canadian nurses do the same, but must also pass an international test as well. I worked with a few nurses from Canada. 1998 perhaps. They made nothing compared to me. They worked for the hospital, i did agency work. They were not allowed to work agency until they paid off the agency that placed them in the hospital in the US. they made 14 an hour, while i made 25 at that time. The agency they used paid for their housing. The pay has equaled out over the years though.

http://www.ona.org/faq

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RE: MIT analyst supports Senate Health care plan: Premi... - 12/2/2009 3:50:59 AM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		When I started my SRN training in 1981 in the UK I earned 3.25 an hour thats pounds(approx6.50$).At the end of it, 60 % of my class wanted to work in the US  because the money was supremely better . Even private nursing didnt pay half as much as the US.
My daughter is working thru college for nursing, a large percent of her class have said they want to work in the US just for the money. so ya, money is a huge draw.



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(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: MIT analyst supports Senate Health care plan: Premi... - 12/2/2009 4:54:51 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Healthcare in the new economy doesn't belong as a private-sector good. It's a public sector good just like the army or the police force. No way that soldier in Iraq or Afghanistan is being paid market value unless they work for Blackwater. Why don't you privatize the entire Iraq and Afghanistan wars and watch the cost jump from $1 trillion to $10 trillion.

What's the market value to you or to the person in California of the firemen who stopped your house from burning down? Are you paying firemen what they are worth? What's the market value of a policeman who stops a criminal from blowing your brains out?




Exactly what they are paid.

And your example of war is exactly why military IS a public good, but health care isnt (though youre cost figures are absurd.)

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RE: MIT analyst supports Senate Health care plan: Premi... - 12/2/2009 5:08:04 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

The Canadian system is great. Nobody said it was perfect. A lot of the shortages are caused by the United States health care system. Many Canadian nurses and doctors have gone to the United States just to make more money and pay less taxes; they're really only in it for the money.




WOW... Just wow... it's The United States' fault that the Canada Health Care Plan has shortages, long waits and doesn't pay doctors and nurses what they are worth.




I bet you didn't think the US had that kind of power, did ya?


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RE: MIT analyst supports Senate Health care plan: Premi... - 12/2/2009 8:00:20 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

When I started my SRN training in 1981 in the UK I earned 3.25 an hour thats pounds(approx6.50$).At the end of it, 60 % of my class wanted to work in the US  because the money was supremely better . Even private nursing didnt pay half as much as the US.
My daughter is working thru college for nursing, a large percent of her class have said they want to work in the US just for the money. so ya, money is a huge draw.




Before your daughter bites the bullet, please encourage her to do her homework. The international test is a bitch. My mother worked with a group of nurses from the Phillipines. Great group of women. It CAN be done. Its hard. Its becoming harder to find a hospital to sponsor a foreign trained nurse, especially with so many on hiring freezes because of the economy.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: MIT analyst supports Senate Health care plan: Premi... - 12/2/2009 8:00:40 AM   
cadenas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy
Doctors and nurses deserve to be paid what their market value as well.


And that is the fundamental flaw with the belief that a free market will solve all problems. The free market will always optimize for money, even in situations where society's goals are different.

The free market does exceedingly well when you are talking about bread or airline tickets.

But it fails for health care, because society's goal (making health care affordable for everyone) is different from what a free market optimizes for (making health care affordable for those willing to pay the price where supply and demand intersect).

BTW, doctors and nurses incomes aren't really the fundamental problem. They are getting squeezed, too.


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RE: MIT analyst supports Senate Health care plan: Premi... - 12/2/2009 8:05:23 AM   
cadenas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
When I started my SRN training in 1981 in the UK I earned 3.25 an hour thats pounds(approx6.50$).At the end of it, 60 % of my class wanted to work in the US  because the money was supremely better . Even private nursing didnt pay half as much as the US.
My daughter is working thru college for nursing, a large percent of her class have said they want to work in the US just for the money. so ya, money is a huge draw.


Before your daughter bites the bullet, please encourage her to do her homework. The international test is a bitch. My mother worked with a group of nurses from the Phillipines. Great group of women. It CAN be done. Its hard. Its becoming harder to find a hospital to sponsor a foreign trained nurse, especially with so many on hiring freezes because of the economy.


In addition, also research the visa situation. It is becoming harder to find a hospital to sponsor a foreign trained nurse to a large extent because only a few hospitals are authorized to sponsor in the first place (If memory serves me right, only 14 hospitals nationwide).

And even if she finds a job with a hospital, she very often may still be stuck there for a few years and then have to return, because it is getting extremely difficult to get a Green Card. It's somewhat easier for nurses than for other professions, but it's still exceedingly difficult. And while waiting, she will be at the mercy of the employer. Expect 50-hour or more workweeks for very low wages - that's the reason many US nurses are leaving the profession.


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: MIT analyst supports Senate Health care plan: Premi... - 12/2/2009 8:10:27 AM   
cadenas


Posts: 517
Joined: 11/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow
quote:

Republicans have been flogging the notion that if we have health care reform, your premiums will go up. They have no data to back up the claim, but they repeat it endlessly. Here's a new report that throws cold water on their heads. Will this new rep

Simple 1st grade math shows if you add 40 million people (who do not have resources to pay) to the system preserving the incomes of the service providers the health care cost will go up. It is just a fact; somebody must pay.

Overall, an excellent post - but there is a fallacy in this statement: we are ALREADY paying for these 100 million people (40+ million uninsured, and another 60 million underinsured). We are paying it through increased cost of emergency room care. We are paying for it through the writeoffs banks lose when people - even insured people - go into bankruptcy due to an illness. We are paying for it in lost productivity. And we are paying for it in many other ways.

Overall, the cost will actually go DOWN, not up.


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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: MIT analyst supports Senate Health care plan: Premi... - 12/2/2009 11:14:33 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Before your daughter bites the bullet, please encourage her to do her homework. The international test is a bitch. My mother worked with a group of nurses from the Phillipines. Great group of women. It CAN be done. Its hard. Its becoming harder to find a hospital to sponsor a foreign trained nurse, especially with so many on hiring freezes because of the economy.


In addition, also research the visa situation. It is becoming harder to find a hospital to sponsor a foreign trained nurse to a large extent because only a few hospitals are authorized to sponsor in the first place (If memory serves me right, only 14 hospitals nationwide).

And even if she finds a job with a hospital, she very often may still be stuck there for a few years and then have to return, because it is getting extremely difficult to get a Green Card. It's somewhat easier for nurses than for other professions, but it's still exceedingly difficult. And while waiting, she will be at the mercy of the employer. Expect 50-hour or more workweeks for very low wages - that's the reason many US nurses are leaving the profession.


Thanks Tazzy and Cadenas for the information. My daughter is not interested in moving down to the US(Im her mother....). She is more into moving back to the UK, (she is english by birth), she is looking into it right now, but not planning on moving for a couple of years, like me its a vocation for her not a money thing.
But as I say a lot of her class are hearing old news.


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RE: MIT analyst supports Senate Health care plan: Premi... - 12/2/2009 12:19:45 PM   
cuckoldmepls


Posts: 855
Joined: 11/29/2007
Status: offline 		I don't think anyone denies we need a healthcare system that is constitutional (fed gov. has no authority here), self supporting with everyone paying into it at least a lttle bit, and one that takes care of senior citizens and the poor as well as the wealthy.

The question is how do we do it and make it the most efficient system in the world. Here's the answer.

5 Requirements for Real Healthcare Reform

http://babelishere.webs.com/health.html

"When the government creates jobs with more spending, they have to take more and more of your paycheck in taxes or pass the debt on to our children which means they are giving billions in interest payments to wealthy people here and abroad and to other countries, not to mention still owing the debt.

When private industry creates jobs, you actually receive a product or a service when they take your money. Now which would you rather have?"


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RE: MIT analyst supports Senate Health care plan: Premi... - 12/2/2009 2:01:14 PM   
Lorr47


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quote:

You apparently dont understand what insurance is.


Maybe not but most understand the criminality of outright price gouging.

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RE: MIT analyst supports Senate Health care plan: Premi... - 12/3/2009 2:37:11 AM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		And I'll be...
Taking care of business every day
Taking care of business every way
I've been taking care of business, it's all mine
Taking care of business and working overtime
Takin' care of business
Takin' care of business
Takin' care of business
Takin' care of business
Takin' care of business.....

Dems To GOP: Obstruct Health Care Debate, And We'll Be Here 'Til Christmas | TPMDC

After an impromptu caucus meeting on health care, Sen. Bill Nelson (D-FL) told reporters, "the Republican leadership is stalling us and we have decided that we are going right through Christmas." If it comes to that. "We go through as long as it takes, including Christmas day, if it takes it to pass it."

In response to a question from TPMDC, Senate Majority Whip Dick Durbin told reporters, "unless the Republican leadership comes forward with a reasonable approach to these amendments, I think our patience is wearing thin."

"We're just not going to sit here forever and watch this bill go down," he said.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/12/dems-to-gop-obstruct-health-care-debate-and-well-be-here-until-christmas.php?ref=fpb


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RE: MIT analyst supports Senate Health care plan: Premi... - 12/3/2009 12:52:51 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas


But it fails for health care, because society's goal (making health care affordable for everyone)




There is only one way to do that. Rationing. The only issue is do you want the government to do the rationing, or do you want the market to do the rationing.

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RE: MIT analyst supports Senate Health care plan: Premi... - 12/3/2009 12:59:51 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		If it comes right down to it, the government, they are far more even handed in that respect than the market.

Ron

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RE: MIT analyst supports Senate Health care plan: Premi... - 12/3/2009 3:31:50 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		absolutely agree with Ron.

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RE: MIT analyst supports Senate Health care plan: Premi... - 12/3/2009 3:43:23 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


There is only one way to do that. Rationing. The only issue is do you want the government to do the rationing, or do you want the market to do the rationing.




....the question is, on what basis is the rationing performed?

The private sector ration on ability to pay, the government on ability to vote.

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RE: MIT analyst supports Senate Health care plan: Premi... - 12/3/2009 3:55:59 PM   
cadenas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas
But it fails for health care, because society's goal (making health care affordable for everyone)

There is only one way to do that. Rationing. The only issue is do you want the government to do the rationing, or do you want the market to do the rationing.


We've tried letting the market doing the rationing for the last couple decades - that's what got us into the mess in the first place.


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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: MIT analyst supports Senate Health care plan: Premi... - 12/3/2009 4:02:37 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas
But it fails for health care, because society's goal (making health care affordable for everyone)

There is only one way to do that. Rationing. The only issue is do you want the government to do the rationing, or do you want the market to do the rationing.


We've tried letting the market doing the rationing for the last couple decades - that's what got us into the mess in the first place.



Except its not "a mess". It is functioning perfectly well for the vast majority of people and only minor changes are needed to remedy it for those who are currently under-served involuntarily.

(in reply to cadenas)
Profile   Post #: 40
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