LadyEllen
Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
quote:
ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
You will have noted that the guidelines have been updated following the Martin case of course.
There is no evidence whatever that Orion knew the intruder was going for a gun or indeed any weapon. The English law is very clear on this matter - unilateral attack is not self defence. Self defence is only legitimate when it is proportionate to attack and threat - there was no attack and there was no threat (the intruder being held at gunpoint) and therefore there was no self defence.
E
Is English law really that completely fucked up, Lady E? Orion's actions would seriously not have been considered self-defense there, or is that just your interpretation of how it would apply in this case?
You'd better believe it Panda. Although PS keeps asking for examples of recent sentences for this particular type of incident in England, (there havent been any, what with handguns banned to the law abiding), the sentencing guidelines are clear and thats whether this is taken to be "grievous bodily harm with intent", attempted murder or whatever. One might argue that the only way such an incident might occur here would be if a gang member tried to burgle the home of another gang member -that this doesnt appear to happen often or at all may say something about deterrent.
Personally I think the CPS would go for attempted murder - the actus reus is present and the mens rea is easily established since one only points guns at people whom one intends to kill, there being no such thing as a shot to wound. Add in the exacerbating factor of possession of an illegal firearm and ammunition and that there can be no argument of self defence here, and Orion would be going down for a good stretch over here. Grievous bodily harm with intent and attempted murder can both draw "life sentences" (15 years), add in the exacerbating factors and 20 years mandatory would be a start point.
It is fair to say that a jury, appraised of the facts may be sympathetic - but a guilty verdict would be returned, whether reached by them or directed by the judge, on the first or second occasion - by retrial or double jeopardy as required. The evidence is all there and the public interest is in sending a strong message on illegal firearms and their use.
Also to take into account is that the police are not the brightest and that the CPS is where law graduates go who cant get a job in private practice because their degree is so poor. In theory this should give the defence an advantage, but most people cant afford a private solicitor or barrister and get lumped with whatever, if anything, the state will provide. Police and CPS are both measured on results - not "doing a fine job" but based on how many convictions are reached.
The same argument about self defence would hold good though, even if the intruder were armed with a handgun and I managed to stick him through the back with my sword whilst he was searching for something to steal. If on the other hand he had turned and pointed the gun at me and I had run him through then I might have a better chance to argue self defence. The principles are clear - self defence must be proportionate to stopping the attack or removing the direct threat to life, the moment one steps outside those principles one becomes a criminal. Crazy? Oh yes.
And even better I think is that a burglar entering your home in England, if he should trip and injure himself, or worse if you have set traps or other devices designed to injure or by threat of injury deter him (broken glass cemented atop a wall for instance) then you can be sued for compensation for his injuries, having failed to show a proper duty of care to the poor chap.
Things have gone way too far in favour of the criminal here in that his rights are upheld by the state, whereas you have to fight to assert yours as a victim.
E
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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.
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RE: Defended my home - 
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