RE: Defended my home (Full Version)

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slvemike4u -> RE: Defended my home (12/10/2009 9:36:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Too, the overwhelming majority of people who own guns do know gun safety. That's why the rate of gun accidents is so low considering the number of guns in private hands in this country.


The anti-gun lobby has always been about histrionics. If they debate the topic logically they have no debate. The facts are irrelevant to them.

There is no logical debate with pro-gun wack jobs...it has never been possible no matter the body count !


On the contrary - I've made a number of attempts in this very thread to debate this issue within a logical framework, and almost without exception, I've seen no logical argument coming back from the other side. The only one who's even come close to making a logical argument has been Rule; and while I disagree with his reasoning, I at least give him credit for trying to approach it from a logical starting point. Everyone else has been arguing from pure emotion. Which, in my experience,  is pretty much par for the course on any gun thread.

Well I'm just going to make an assumption here that when you say "Everyone else"....you are including those on both sides of the question.
Would that be correct?




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Defended my home (12/10/2009 9:43:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Too, the overwhelming majority of people who own guns do know gun safety. That's why the rate of gun accidents is so low considering the number of guns in private hands in this country.


The anti-gun lobby has always been about histrionics. If they debate the topic logically they have no debate. The facts are irrelevant to them.

There is no logical debate with pro-gun wack jobs...it has never been possible no matter the body count !


On the contrary - I've made a number of attempts in this very thread to debate this issue within a logical framework, and almost without exception, I've seen no logical argument coming back from the other side. The only one who's even come close to making a logical argument has been Rule; and while I disagree with his reasoning, I at least give him credit for trying to approach it from a logical starting point. Everyone else has been arguing from pure emotion. Which, in my experience,  is pretty much par for the course on any gun thread.

Well I'm just going to make an assumption here that when you say "Everyone else"....you are including those on both sides of the question.
Would that be correct?


No. I've seen some very logical arguments on this side, from Lady Pact, WildHrt, Kirata, Lockit, and others I'm probably forgetting at the moment. I have yet to see a single logical argument from your side of the debate. Rule took a shot at it with his discussion of accidental child deaths, but missed a couple of opportunities to shape it into an effective argument. Nobody else - without exception - has even come close to making a lucid argument against whatever aspect of gun ownership they happen to oppose. Every "argument" is ultimately stripped down to magical thinking - "well, guns are bad, that's all, and I just want them to go away!", or "well, he should have done something differently. I don't know what, but that's not my problem to figure out, it's his fault for not figuring it out!" Totally illogical. Without exception.




slvemike4u -> RE: Defended my home (12/10/2009 9:50:22 AM)

Interesting Panda...though I must confess when I posed the question to you I wasn't restricting it to this thread(which of course is a celebration of guns and their use in defending one's home)I was referring to the larger debate.
To be honest with you...coming to this thread and even voicing a contrary opinion is illogical to begin with...given the reasoning behind this threads very existence.
Perhaps the absence of "logical" arguments might have something to do with the intelligence of posters who can recognise a gun "love-in" when they see one.
Now obviously I don't count myself as "logical" nor intelligent...otherwise I wouldn't be here.




Kirata -> RE: Defended my home (12/10/2009 9:58:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

So now you presume to know what motivates me.....as I said no logical conversation possible....especially with the likes of you!
Is the ability to see into the minds of others a gorean skill ?.....or did you come by this talent using your earthly abilities?

I base my conclusion, which I stand by, on your brusque and insulting dismissal of all reasoned argument against your position and the appeals to emotion that you constantly trot out as substitutes for argument in its favor.

And that snipe at Goreans (or at any member's orientation) was uncalled for.

K.







slvemike4u -> RE: Defended my home (12/10/2009 10:03:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

So now you presume to know what motivates me.....as I said no logical conversation possible....especially with the likes of you!
Is the ability to see into the minds of others a gorean skill ?.....or did you come by this talent using your earthly abilities?

I base my conclusion, which I stand by, on your brusque and insulting dismissal of all reasoned argument against your position and the appeals to emotion that you constantly trot out as substitutes for argument in its favor.

And that snipe at Goreans (or at any member's orientation) was uncalled for.

K.




  It wasn't a snipe at goreans....it was a snipe at you and your presumptions...and as uncalled for as your characterization of me "waving a hankie around"
As for brusque and dissmisive....pot kettle...black.




Lucienne -> RE: Defended my home (12/10/2009 10:07:42 AM)

The gun control debate, in terms of policy changes, is almost dead in the U.S. The democrats are not willing to put much political capital into fighting that battle. The cultural debate about gun control has long been fantastical to the point of mootness. In one corner, you have the NRA, which basically uses guns as a front for a broader conservative agenda. In the other corner, you have a group led by Sarah Brady. Because people getting shot standing next to the President is the number one cause of violent death in this country and it totally makes sense to have the movement spearheaded by a "I can't believe this happened to me, let's get rid of scary looking guns!!" white lady republican. (Ladies and gentlemen, <<< that, is snark)

The biggest problem with guns in this country isn't accidental shootings in the suburban homes of recreational shooters/hunters -- it's people being murdered in urban cores. Howard Dean caught shit on the campaign trail in 03 for suggesting that it doesn't make sense to have one set of gun control laws throughout the country when the usage and ownership varies so widely, but he was right. The way the current debate is set up, stakeholders are positioned as enemies, rather than fellow citizens with a shared concern for security.

As long as that's the dynamic, I don't think it's possible to have a reasonable discussion of the topic.

ETA: I love being post 666 {childish giggle}




Lockit -> RE: Defended my home (12/10/2009 10:43:06 AM)

I have never been one to get involved in a gun debate... until this thread. I still don't consider it a gun debate thread. I see it as a matter of a criminal act in which someone had to protect their family. Now that I will debate the right to until there is no longer a need to defend one's family.

Having to face off a rapist with nothing and actually not being able to fight him off because it could risk my children... I say that I would rather have a gun to protect my home than something that would allow a criminal to get closer. So I guess if I have to pick a side... I am pro gun... but mostly I am just pro family protection. It is clear that laws and jails don't stop crime. So for me and my house, I will be the crime stopper.




kdsub -> RE: Defended my home (12/10/2009 11:13:03 AM)

Zero you as so many others don't understand... and if you had read all my responses you may... A poster said I had no right to comment because I had not been in a similar situation...I had and did not like his attitude in assuming otherwise.

For the rest of my posts over and over I said I was not criticizing Orion’s actions... I thought them brave and even stated I may have done the same in his situation...read you will find my very words. My posts were trying to discuss others ways to handle such a situation in the future that did not end in someone getting shot.

For some reason I was attacked over and over. I posted what the police say should be done in a similar situation...look for them if you did not see it.

I first posted a comment ending in big man where I meant big deal...to me things are not worth a life...even a crooks. I quickly posted an apology and explanation but I believe this to be the root of the hateful posts. Yes I also lost my temper to which I am sorry.

It amazes me how everything I post about burglaries in the future and the best way to handle them are always trued into a criticism of Orion’s actions…Even he emailed me to say he understood…why can’t you?

Butch




DemonKia -> RE: Defended my home (12/10/2009 11:17:26 AM)

LOL & most excellent thread-generating OP, from one fictionalist to another.

Literary criticism aside (all that commentary & bolding & etc I've done to your quoted OP text below), I must give you enormous kudos for doing such an amazing job of wool-pulling, Orion. I'm absolutely convinced that your story is a hoax, as you admitted (ironically I'm sure was the intent) somewhere around the dozenth page of this quite successful thread. (& good on that bit of tongue-in-cheek admission, that kinda thing can be so helpful to getting those nightly zzzzzz's after pranks like these . . . . )

You appear to have snookered a lot of (eager to believe) people who apparently cannot imagine someone constructing something full of fantasist stuff & yankin' people's chains to the nth degree for the attention & the pleasure of foolin' people. This is impressive stuff. Well done. Please take my 'editing thoughts' as assistance towards bigger & better fabulations. I look forward to your future endeavors.

Towards that better future, you might not make it such a picture perfect, clean kinda exemplar of what you're arguing. (In this case, 2nd Amendment issues, but I'm sure you've got other arguments you're willing to add your spin to . . . . ) That was part of what set off my cop-hinky sense, how perfect the details were from a pro-gun ownership perspective. If your story were real it would end up being a textbook poster-child for individual gun ownership rights. Too bad you couldn't actually give that to your compadres. O.o.O -- unless you're a double agent. Hmmmmm . . . . Maybe the point of this is to make fun of the credulity of those who believed . .. . (Of course, my cop-hinky sense has been far more developed from my informal studies in forensics than by the compressed narative, bizarre science, & other misrepresentations that most people get of these topics via teevee & movies & detective fiction . . . .. )

I do have to particularly give you big props for getting people indignant at anyone wanting verification of what some guy on the internet said. It's like we suddenly weren't on the internet, or it was an internet where a bunch of strangers weren't for a few moments. Magical. All kinds of threads, all kinds of places, there would've been demands all over the place for some kind of outside source for your story but clearly CollarChat does have some kind of 'community' cuz the various sides of the argument were quite fervent in their climbing on board their respective parts of the ensuing psychodrama. I'm just so damned inspired by this, high theater indeed . . ..

After all, how much traction would just another gun thread have had, without your dramatic story to attach everyones' passions?

Well, anyways, I'm definitely adding the 'you' you've displayed here on CM (& particularly in this thread, tho' your profile has a whole new lustre from the reflected glory of this thread) to my 'fictional character' supply closet. What a fascinating persona . . ..... (& for all inclined to panty twisting about my scathing, disbelieving reply to what some guy on the internet said, here, have a chuckle on me . . . . . ) & as for you, Orion, we ever gonna see a pic of you & the lovely slave girl that's not photoshopped?

Oh, shit, now I'll get accused of disrupting all the kumbaya hand-holding that's been going on with my lack of trust over what some guy on the internet said. Damn.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I am going to put this here as it will wind up political. Please excuse my writing this morning, as I have been up since 3:45 am. [posted: 12/6/2009 6:18:07 AM]

I live in a 3 br 2 ba single story with a full basement. It slopes towards the back so that the garage opens into the basement area. The basement is partially finished, about half of it. Down there is the Master Suite (25' x 13') that I have built for myself. At about 3:45 this morning I woke up to the sound of the garage door opening slowly. I grabbed my .40 cal from the night stand, unlocked the trigger lock, put a clip in, pulled the slide back slowly to put one in the chamber, flipped the safety off, and then went to the door of my bedroom. I listened at the door for a moment, and waited a few seconds until I heard something in the room next to mine, that we use for storage at the moment. I slowly opened the door, leaving the light out to my room, and checked my corners before exiting. Gun raised, I slowly moved down the short hallway, stopped at the doorway to an unfinished room, and checked there, and nothing. I was just moving through the entry way into the basement foyer, when I heard something in the storage room again. I checked the stairs I had to pass, and checked the back door, keeping my back to the wall that the door to the storage room door is perpendicular to. I stepped up to the door, weapon raised, and standing in the room was someone dressed in a bulky dark colored coat (later learned it was navy blue), ski mask, and gloves. They were bent over and looking through some of our storage boxes, and had pulled out a small fireproof safe that was at the bottom. I quick glanced the room, which there are no hiding places from the doorway, and I saw no one else. I aimed my pistol center mass and said "Don't move I have a gun pointed at you." and the person stopped, and slowly stood straight up. Now they were turned mostly away from me, and I could not see their hands. I then told them "slowly raise your hands in the air so I can see them". [Wow. How Clancy-esque. Or perhaps its Grisham-esque . . . & I'm quite impressed with both you & the intruders' ability to see in the dark.]

At this point my girl had come to the entry way to the basement foyer and asked what was going on. Keeping my eyes on the person I told her to call 911 and tell them I had an intruder at gunpoint. The person still did not raise their hands, and I could not see them. I told them again "Slowly raise your hands in the air so I can see them, and make no sudden moves." There was no waivering in my voice, as I have been in similar situations, but the person did not raise their hands still. I finally said "Look motherfucker if you do not raise your hands I am going to assume you have a weapon and shoot you." The person turned quickly and as they did their right hand was coming up from their waist area, so I fired three times. [Again, your dark vision is exquisite, clearly. & your recall of details is phenomenal, especially a mere 3 hours after all this trauma happened. Doesn't sound too terribly embellished at all.]

They dropped fast, the sound in the enclosed room was load and my ears were ringing. My girl is screaming in the next room, and I moved up slowly to check the person. Blood is pooling up quickly on the concrete floor, and they are laying partly on their side, partly on their back, with their right leg bent under them at the knee. I could not tell if they were breathing, and decided it best not to bend down to check for a pulse. I stepped back and waited. I told my girl to call 911 back and tell them we needed an ambulance and shots had been fired.

It seemed like a very long time, but was only a few minutes I guess, but the cops finally arrived. Of course when they entered they yelled at me to drop my weapon which I did. They secured me, my weapon and checked the perp, who did have a pulse but they said faint. Three shots, two in the chest and one in the abdomen. They searched the guy, and found a .25 cal pistol in his right coat pocket, a straight bladed knife, and burglary tools.

[The following part is nothing short of amazing, time-wise. Shoot an intruder, deal with the cops, sit & gather your thoughts for an hour, & the burglar with three large-caliber wounds (from a relatively short distance -- what was it? 20 feet? 30?) to the torso has gotten out of surgery, all in a little over 3 hours. You Georgians must have the most efficient cops & medical people on the planet. I'll bet that heinous perpetrator even got a CAT scan & etc way fast...] I have been at the Sheriff's station making a report, and the perp is out of surgery but in critical condition. The Sheriff's Dept says no charges will be filed against me, and several against him. A 19 year old white male, that has a record going back years they said. I have been sitting here for an hour, trying to wind down, but if anyone reading this has ever been in a situation like this, you know it takes a while. As I was thinking, I am thankful that I am allowed to own a weapon, that I know how to use a weapon, and that I am a light sleeper. [Oh, & I can totally see & hear how upset you are in this prose. It's just so disorganized & poorly spelled as I would expect from somebody who'd gone thru the traumatic experience you describe. Even stoic guys would be shaken, as you display so well here....]

So to all the gun ban proponents out there, fuck you. I am going to eat, try and relax, and get some sleep. Argue as most of you are likely to do, but I feel better knowing my family was kept safe. I am sure there will be second guessing on things to do, I have been sitting here myself and doing that, but regardless the outcome is better than what it could have been,


Ah, & two last notes: (a) I'm not checkin' back on this thread. I mostly posted this to be on the record some time down the line, if'n it does turn out I picked the correct answer . .. .

&, (b), zero interest in participating in the rather pointless guns-righteous-or-evil argument that was quite competently incited by the OP. But I do have a rhetorical question for y'all -- did a single person change which side they're on about the issue via this thread's discussion? Just curious . .. . . .




slvemike4u -> RE: Defended my home (12/10/2009 11:18:25 AM)

Butch the reasons for your being attacked seem clear enough to me...you did not subscribe to the party line...The one in which it is a celebration to have sucessfully pulled the trigger on an intruder!




kdsub -> RE: Defended my home (12/10/2009 11:22:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact


Since you seem to have missed it in My original statement, I underlined and bolded exactly where I said the blame lies.  At no time did I blame the parents for this.  I agree, they may feel that they are to blame, but that may or may not be the reality. 





I agree with you Ladyact and have always thought it the childs fault...but some can be rehibilitated..if they live. But I also agree Orion had no choice. I just wish it never came to the point he had to shoot...I'll bet he does too.

Butch




Lockit -> RE: Defended my home (12/10/2009 11:26:46 AM)

Why are some calling a 19 year old, a child? He was old enough to join CM.. to vote, to go to war and would be considered an adult criminally. That is not a child. He may be someone's child... but still an adult.




slvemike4u -> RE: Defended my home (12/10/2009 11:33:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Why are some calling a 19 year old, a child? He was old enough to join CM.. to vote, to go to war and would be considered an adult criminally. That is not a child. He may be someone's child... but still an adult.
I don't know about others Lockit....but for me,if you can't walk up to your local bartender and order a legal drink(preferably Jack Daniels...lol)....you are still a child !




Lockit -> RE: Defended my home (12/10/2009 11:36:22 AM)

Sorry Mike... I will stick with what the law states an adult is... and besides going into the gun debate, I don't think an alcohol debate on what constitutes an adult is something I wish to get blamed for here. lol




kittinSol -> RE: Defended my home (12/10/2009 11:38:58 AM)

Kia, your post was quite perfect, and the cartoon strip you linked was hilarious: did you write it :-) ?




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Defended my home (12/10/2009 11:49:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Butch the reasons for your being attacked seem clear enough to me...you did not subscribe to the party line...The one in which it is a celebration to have sucessfully pulled the trigger on an intruder!


Or, perhaps these posts had something to do with it...


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

He should have waited for the police to arrive, remember he moved to confront the burglar. Now if the burglar gave him no choice than that would be a different situation. It had not reached that point yet and a boy was unnecessarily shot.

If you can’t see that then you are the stupid one not me.


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I just think he handled it wrong and it unnecessarily caused the loss of life.


Personally, I think Butch did make some impassioned arguments, and I was moved by some of them. But some of these posts went a little beyond not subscribing to the party line. When you're telling someone they shot someone without good reason, it's a pretty bold statement, and likely to be a little inflammatory.




Marc2b -> RE: Defended my home (12/10/2009 11:54:00 AM)

This is a test. This is only a test.




LadyPact -> RE: Defended my home (12/10/2009 11:56:37 AM)

That wouldn't surprise Me at all.  Since I am, literally, intimately involved with two males who serve in the armed forces, I am no stranger to the after effects of what happens when one man is pitted against another.  I highly doubt that I have to sit here and tell you, or anyone else for that matter, that not every event of such scale occurs and then everyone goes on happy, joyous, and free. 

What I will say is, this thread has never been about the gun debate to Me.  I'd have had the same opinions that I did here if the events were told and the intruder had been clubbed with a baseball bat.  I also would have had the same opinion if someone other than Orion had started the discussion.  The same goes if the person who broke in (I refuse to call him a kid anymore in this discussion) had lived or died.  Had I been the person in the original, I absolutely would, and still do, believe I have the right to use force in protecting My family. 

That may sound very cruel to some, and I'm sure there are some out there who don't find it very sophisticated.  I'm fine with those opinions.  The intruder, his family, the woes of society that may have put him in that position, and everything else, come secondary to the health, well being, and safety of the people I love.

So, to answer mike's follow up question, no, I didn't change My opinion at all.




slvemike4u -> RE: Defended my home (12/10/2009 12:00:12 PM)

Panda,other than the erroneous "loss of life"(which I think he later corrected and owned up to)and,okay the stupid crack was unwise (though the way I read that he was reponding to someone calling him stupid?)....what was wrong with suggesting another course of action might have yeilded a positive result that wouldn't have entailed shooting somebody(other than the "its not such a good story" problem)




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Defended my home (12/10/2009 12:08:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Panda,other than the erroneous "loss of life"(which I think he later corrected and owned up to)and,okay the stupid crack was unwise (though the way I read that he was reponding to someone calling him stupid?)....what was wrong with suggesting another course of action might have yeilded a positive result that wouldn't have entailed shooting somebody(other than the "its not such a good story" problem)


I'm reluctant to argue this too aggressively, because I didn't really disagree too strongly with Butch. Unlike some, after reading a number of his posts, I "got" the overall thrust of what he was trying to say. I'm just saying there's a significant difference between suggesting how another course of action might have yielded a positive result, and making unequivocal, judgmental statements like "He should have done things differently" and "a boy was unnecessarily shot." One's a suggestion, one's a judgment and a criticism. Which he's perfectly entitled to do - it's just going to provoke a stronger reaction than simply suggesting a different action.




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