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RE: submission vs. playing hard to get - 12/19/2009 7:46:24 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

windchymes wrote:

PERFECT example!!!! He wants us to tell him we want to be with him, and as SOON as someone does, a lame excuse as to why he can"t!


Not the same thing!


Totally is.


Except that everything that was said (by both parties) is in jest, and all know it, so I wouldn't call it the same.

I mean, does EVERYONE really want to be with me? Not even close. And some that do, just think they do lol. And, if everyone did want to be with me, then I would have trouble fitting them in the house.

Of course, the amount of income available would increase, so that bigger quarters could be built...

< Message edited by Level -- 12/19/2009 7:49:49 AM >

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RE: submission vs. playing hard to get - 12/19/2009 7:46:47 AM   
littlewonder


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Status: offline 		Unfortunately it's what's kept me single for so very many long years. Men say they want someone who will not question them at every turn, who will not fight them on everything, who will make their lives easier....and then they realize when they have that you're not a challenge. They get bored and move on.

I'll be the first to admit I'm not a challenge. I'm about as easygoing as you can get. I don't push, I don't provoke, I don't do the whole "hard to get" thing that I hear about. I find it wears me out and I just don't like it at all. I'm one who gives everything I can in a relationship. If I have to play some kind of game then I find I lose interest in them.

It seems to be pretty common though.

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RE: submission vs. playing hard to get - 12/19/2009 7:50:17 AM   
Aileen1968


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19


These are polar opposites yet they are both messages that women receive. On the one hand we as submissives or woman should cleave to men.

On the other hand we are told to play hard to get. To be a challenge. We shouldnt be too easy. When the challenge is gone hes gone.

I have in the past given a man everything he wanted and have been told, "no one, could or would treat me better". he's still not emotionally attainable.

These concepts were highly prevalent to me In The story of O. O was the ultimate in Submission. She gave till she had nothing to give but her life itself. She was cast aside. The character Jaqeuline was not submissive and yet you see the character Renee' chasing after her like a puppy dog. He desired what he couldn't have.



So I am interested about what you feel about these opposing views in society and how they play out here? Does a submissive have to fear being cast aside for a bigger challenge?





I've never gotten the feeling that men expect hard to get. Maybe I subconsciously avoid men that give off that vibe from the start so it never has become an issue within a relationship. I have opened myself up to him from day one. He didn't run or hit a limit just to move on. The more I give...the more he takes and the more he cherishes me.

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RE: submission vs. playing hard to get - 12/19/2009 7:52:21 AM   
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Status: offline 		I don't think that "easygoing" is the problem, it's finding a partner that otherwise fits, is the issue.

Finding someone that fits is hard. There aren't that many people in the world that do so, IMO.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

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RE: submission vs. playing hard to get - 12/19/2009 7:56:24 AM   
AquaticSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19


I meant by society in books called "The Rules". Or books by Steve HArvey and others telling us how to play "the Game" in order to "catch" the man.


I've never gotten that message from society and I have no idea who Steve Harvey is and I haven't heard of "The Rules" either. But if that is what he writes in his books, I'm not surprised I haven't read them. Just because it's in a book doesn't mean it's true. I managed to "win" the dating game without any of that nonsense. And I even slept with him on our first date. Which wasn't really a date at all!

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 12/19/2009 7:58:14 AM >

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RE: submission vs. playing hard to get - 12/19/2009 8:04:37 AM   
kiwisub12


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Status: offline 		I have never had the issue of "playing hard to get". In fact i pretty much don't play games. I don't know how.

Infact the one time i tried to flirt with another man in front of my ex., the ex compliamented me on how well i was speaking to him. *sigh* Can you be a "true"woman if you can't flirt??????

I guess i was absent when we had flirting/gameplaying lessons - and i have been socially retarded since.

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RE: submission vs. playing hard to get - 12/19/2009 8:06:33 AM   
Aileen1968


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19


quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19


quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

I have no interest in a woman playing hard to get. Life is too short.



So then why is this always communicated to us? Surely there is some truth to it?


As I said in my post, it's never been communicated to me.


I meant by society in books called "The Rules". Or books by Steve HArvey and others telling us how to play "the Game" in order to "catch" the man.
quote:

next >


Thus the reason why I never have and never will read a book about how to have healthy relationships. They are usually written by people who haven't been successful in relationships themselves...

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RE: submission vs. playing hard to get - 12/19/2009 8:11:01 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968


Thus the reason why I never have and never will read a book about how to have healthy relationships. They are usually written by people who haven't been successful in relationships themselves...


Penn and Teller's Bullshit did a show about a woman who "coaches" women in their relationships and has everyone follow the exact same formula. The author looked like the most miserable woman I've ever seen and her rules struck me as idiotic.

The only relationship books I like are "He's Just Not That Into You" and "They Call It A Break-Up Because It's Broken".

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

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RE: submission vs. playing hard to get - 12/19/2009 8:21:12 AM   
DesFIP


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Status: offline 		I think that men do want the hunt in the beginning. If they come up and say "let's fuck" to a perfect stranger, and she agrees then they'll happily have a one night stand but not too many would consider her appropriate for a long term relationship.

However if you pick someone who has intimacy issues, then no matter how well you treat him, he will still have those issues. You are at fault for picking someone with those issues to begin with.

I was married to such a man for over 20 years. I know where his issues came from, as did he, but he simply did not want to deal with them sufficiently. And eventually I got tired of being made to 'prove' that I loved him. He treated me worse and worse in an effort to test my love and when I finally gave up, after nearly 20 years he was able to tell himself that he was right all along, that I never did really love him. It is only now, after we've been divorced over 5 years that he has come to realize that he caused much of our problems and he still hasn't accepted how much his refusal to deal with his issues caused the final breakup. Because if he acknowledges the truth, then he would finally have to deal with it and he's too afraid of that pain to do so.

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RE: submission vs. playing hard to get - 12/19/2009 8:32:15 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

we are told to play hard to get.


Lucious,
I'm picking on one word of your question, not to make a semantic argument but to make a point of what was so freshing, and perhaps the key to my attraction, to beth. Emotionally, in her interaction with me for the week on-line before we met, and from the first second we glanced at each other, exchanging a hand-shake and a kiss on the cheek; there was no 'play' about her. Frankly it was totally disarming because I hadn't experienced it before.

I wanted, coming from a life altering experience, to never 'play' in my life again. I thought I was doing a good job of it, however until meeting beth I never got the feeling that someone was doing the same. Business, family, friends, the woman I dated; fun, exciting, a good time, but still exhibiting a dose of 'play' when I was with them. I can't tell you what it was like not to experience that with a woman from the first second we met.

Considering 'standard' morality comparisons - beth was EASY. Never hard to get, still not, and that's beth.

I think it would be so nice, and relationship would be so each, more likely to be long term, or at least on terms everyone could enjoy; if there was never 'play' involved. Hard to get, submissive, dominant, a top, a dominant who enjoys receiving painful sensations, a submissive who only wants to inflict painful sensations how, when, where , and at the intensity dictated by someone else; playing to get there doesn't really get you there.

That doesn't mean you can't play games with each other once you're in a relationship; just do it as a team and not agenda based individuals.


quote:

The story of O. O was the ultimate in Submission.
And on a less serious note. We held a 'screening' for the 'Story of O' in blue ray at our house. Had about 20 people set up in theater style, a few 'Beach Mystree and Toi' and 'WyldHrt' were there. It was a comedy! 'O', the 'ultimate submissive' was always getting 'prepared' and whining about getting ready for the next 'challenge' or 'rite of passage' with a team getting her ready for, what seemed, a terrible fate. Her submission wasn't her, so I guess you could say she was playing the "hard to get". Her Dominant, filling the neurotic persona most dominants are given on the silver screen, of course tolerated her struggles, her hard to get play.

It was a night of 'Mystery Science Theater' porn.

Sorry but that didn't and doesn't work with me. A submissive not only has to be submissive without playing, but she has to show submissiveness in submitting; begging for the privilege, convincingly so. beth, almost, has me convinced!

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RE: submission vs. playing hard to get - 12/19/2009 9:17:27 AM   
lusciouslips19


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Status: offline 		Merc,
At this point in my life, Im not playing hard to get. I am hard to get. I am seeking intimacy and an emotional connection. I Havent had sex in 10 months because i seek someone who truly wants to know me and see if we fit before we have sex. If the jury is still out on whether I am right for him and vice versa, I have chose to not have meaningless casual sex. I am the sort of women who develops attachment through sex. So this approach is good for me. But Im really frickin horney and I miss skin on skin! But it doesnt seem many men want that or when they do its not a good fit.

But here I am. Not playing hard to get just trying to break a pattern of sexual chemistry with someone who is not able to connect.

Its not easy. But I am ok with that. Ok mentally I am. But my "loins are mad at me!

< Message edited by lusciouslips19 -- 12/19/2009 9:18:37 AM >

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RE: submission vs. playing hard to get - 12/19/2009 9:32:59 AM   
DesFIP


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Status: offline 		I think there's also a problem in understanding what the term hard to get means. It does not mean going with someone and not being connected to them while there. It means that if he doesn't bother to call you until 6:00PM on Friday night to ask if you're free that you turn him down. That you are not a last second option, but someone who has options and isn't available when his better choices turn him down.

You go out with someone, and you want to be there, make that clear. Look into his eyes, be into him totally. But have enough self respect to not sit around and still go out when he shows an hour late. He doesn't think you're worth being on time for, then go see a movie by yourself. You deserve to be treated as rare and precious and won't accept anything less. If he's clueless, you tell him that you are angry at being treated as last minute and won't accept it in the future. And then don't.

In Paul Newman's famous phrase, be a steak not a hamburger.

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RE: submission vs. playing hard to get - 12/19/2009 9:35:28 AM   
ShoreBound149


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19


quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

I have no interest in a woman playing hard to get. Life is too short.



So then why is this always communicated to us? Surely there is some truth to it?

No truth to it at all.  Parents tell it to their daughters and booksellers put it in books....to sell books.  Where have you heard it beyond those to sources?  I know no man who ever acknowledged to me he enjoys pursuing a woman who is "playing hard to get".  Personally, if I made an effort to be with a woman and she acted hard to get, I would pass her by quickly.  Although, it's never actually happened.....

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RE: submission vs. playing hard to get - 12/19/2009 9:42:00 AM   
AquaticSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I think there's also a problem in understanding what the term hard to get means. It does not mean going with someone and not being connected to them while there. It means that if he doesn't bother to call you until 6:00PM on Friday night to ask if you're free that you turn him down. That you are not a last second option, but someone who has options and isn't available when his better choices turn him down.

You go out with someone, and you want to be there, make that clear. Look into his eyes, be into him totally. But have enough self respect to not sit around and still go out when he shows an hour late. He doesn't think you're worth being on time for, then go see a movie by yourself. You deserve to be treated as rare and precious and won't accept anything less. If he's clueless, you tell him that you are angry at being treated as last minute and won't accept it in the future. And then don't.

In Paul Newman's famous phrase, be a steak not a hamburger.


This doesn't sound like hard to get at all. Every time I've seen the phrase used, it was a woman who was deliberately playing head games - ie. saying they are busy on a particular night when they aren't just to give the impression that the man is going to have to work extra hard for it.

Athough, personally, I have no problem with not being called till 6 PM and I wouldn't assume that he is only calling cause everyone else turned him down. Most get togethers in my life happen with only a few hours planning.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

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RE: submission vs. playing hard to get - 12/19/2009 9:46:51 AM   
lobodomslavery


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Status: offline 		i think it s a game on both sides and as such should not be taken seriously. When the man tries to be submissive and asks about the Woman he is ignored this happened to me, when the Woman tries to enslave She is seen as too forward and too abrupt. Basically when kink is introduced first off, i dont think it will work on either side. Though maybe in some cases it will
Kevin

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RE: submission vs. playing hard to get - 12/19/2009 10:09:34 AM   
lusciouslips19


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I think there's also a problem in understanding what the term hard to get means. It does not mean going with someone and not being connected to them while there. It means that if he doesn't bother to call you until 6:00PM on Friday night to ask if you're free that you turn him down. That you are not a last second option, but someone who has options and isn't available when his better choices turn him down.

You go out with someone, and you want to be there, make that clear. Look into his eyes, be into him totally. But have enough self respect to not sit around and still go out when he shows an hour late. He doesn't think you're worth being on time for, then go see a movie by yourself. You deserve to be treated as rare and precious and won't accept anything less. If he's clueless, you tell him that you are angry at being treated as last minute and won't accept it in the future. And then don't.

In Paul Newman's famous phrase, be a steak not a hamburger.


This is the truth of it.

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RE: submission vs. playing hard to get - 12/19/2009 10:16:09 AM   
DesFIP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub


This doesn't sound like hard to get at all. Every time I've seen the phrase used, it was a woman who was deliberately playing head games - ie. saying they are busy on a particular night when they aren't just to give the impression that the man is going to have to work extra hard for it.

Athough, personally, I have no problem with not being called till 6 PM and I wouldn't assume that he is only calling cause everyone else turned him down. Most get togethers in my life happen with only a few hours planning.


You know Aqua, just because I choose to stay home and read a book instead of accepting a last minute afterthought doesn't mean I have no plans. I value myself highly and don't think that me being on my own is of less value then being with someone else, anybody else.

I've said I had plans not because I'm leading him in a dance but because I need to be treated as important. Which means if he bothered to call for a reservation on Wednesday to the restaurant, then I was important enough to call first to see if I was available on Friday. Not assume I was and call at the last minute.

But this is about the dating period, not about when you're in a relationship and you know you'll be getting together.

In terms of ownership, I want to be the most expensive car he's ever dreamed of  not a $200 junker he's stripping for parts.

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RE: submission vs. playing hard to get - 12/19/2009 10:19:10 AM   
lusciouslips19


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quote:

In terms of ownership, I want to be the most expensive car he's ever dreamed of not a $200 junker he's stripping for parts.




_____________________________

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Keeper of Original Home Flag and Fire of Mr. Lance Hughes
Charter member of Lance's Fag Hags,
Member of the Subbie Mafia
Princess of typos and it's my prerogative

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RE: submission vs. playing hard to get - 12/19/2009 10:25:58 AM   
sunshinemiss


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Status: offline 		HI everyone,
I had to stop reading because I was thinking.. oh yes, mm hmmm.. I don't know bout that... hmmm... and couldn't think my own thoughts. If I repeat what others have said, I apologize.

Lushy,

I don't *PLAY* hard to get I *AM* hard to get.  It's true.  When I love or trust, it takes a good long while, but once you have it, it is nearly unbreakable.   The getting part is the getting to know each other, the process of building trust, the listening with more than just ears, seeing with more than just eyes.  And I want someone who is also hard to get.  Because it is in the slow struggle that opens me.  I am not ashamed that one of my closest friends said to me after ten years of friendship "You never talk about your family.  Do you even have one?"  I am a slow burn. 

For me, this personal rhythm means being alone for long periods of time because others don't want to take that time.  That's cool.  The right one for me will honor my slow rhythm.  And I will be fascinating enough to him that it will be a glorious journey into know me, and he will revel in the sensuous slowness.

I think that our society has become so "instant" that we have applied immediacy to our romantic lives as well as our microwave dinners, fix a flat, internet news, and one night stands.  We have forgotten that while character can be visible pretty early on, a dance of intimacy between people requires give and take which ought to take a certain amount of time (not as long as I take necessarily - there'd be no babies born if that were the case!).  But society as it is now, as we experience it, has done us a great disservice by quickening the pace of our love and our giving ourselves. 

I think this may be what you have done.  Perhaps you open yourself up too quickly.  Do you love with abandon - a beautiful thing - without tempering it with a healthy reluctance?  *It's quite the conundrum actually.*  Our society has also made us so self centered (not a negative here, just a focus on self) and our own wants that with the great rush we add our emotions running rampant and we create an opportunity for deep disappointment.

There is for me a difference in bottoming and submitting.  In the beginning of a relationship, it is bottoming (for me).  I can be physically and intellectually present and somewhat emotionally as well, but I do not submit.  No.  Fricking.  Way.  And I don't because the give and take of the relationship, the process of becoming "us" is something to be lingered over, something to be enjoyed.  Like... a 7 course meal that takes 4 hours.  We don't rush through the soup so we can get to the dessert.  Each flavor savored and enjoyed.  And that is why we love those dinners.

Think of the men who kiss you.  The ones who are the absolute best kissers are the ones who have all the time in the world.  They are not rushing to the finish line, they are not trying to get to the next base.  They leisurely linger on your lips, they take time taunting, they playfully and passionately pull you.  There is no later.  There is only now.  This kiss.  This caress.  This joy of wanting, the groan of yearning for more.  They experience the process.

This is what I wish for you, my dear lushy.  The process of the want, the process of the need.  The layer by layer peeling of your free self into submission as he inspires it from you, as he shows his responsibility to your care and your needs as he shows himself worthy. 

And honey, the man says "no one, could or would treat me better" BECAUSE he's still not emotionally attainable AND OTHER WOMEN KNOW IT AND RUN AWAY.

Love and blessings,
sunshine


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RE: submission vs. playing hard to get - 12/19/2009 10:27:49 AM   
AquaticSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub


This doesn't sound like hard to get at all. Every time I've seen the phrase used, it was a woman who was deliberately playing head games - ie. saying they are busy on a particular night when they aren't just to give the impression that the man is going to have to work extra hard for it.

Athough, personally, I have no problem with not being called till 6 PM and I wouldn't assume that he is only calling cause everyone else turned him down. Most get togethers in my life happen with only a few hours planning.


You know Aqua, just because I choose to stay home and read a book instead of accepting a last minute afterthought doesn't mean I have no plans. I value myself highly and don't think that me being on my own is of less value then being with someone else, anybody else.

I didn't say you did. I said that is how I have always heard the phrase used. Big difference Des.
quote:


I've said I had plans not because I'm leading him in a dance but because I need to be treated as important. Which means if he bothered to call for a reservation on Wednesday to the restaurant, then I was important enough to call first to see if I was available on Friday. Not assume I was and call at the last minute.

See above.

As for myself, I don't give a shit if he has reservations anywhere. Val has made reservations I think once in our entire 4+ years. Including when we were dating. Most our dates were grabbing a six pack, something from the store and watching TV together.

If he's asking me out to dinner, I'm happy to have the adventure of going place to place and maybe ending up watchnig a movie over pizza from the grocery store. I don't think that means I'm worth any less. Just that I'm extremely casual. Doesn't make other ways wrong - just I don't think your way is playing hard to get and it doesn't mean that a woman has to do things that way to respect herself.

Nor, for that matter, do I believe for a second that a man only calls at 6 because he assumed the woman was free and she's his last resort. I know it does happen sometimes but in my experience, they call at 6 to go out at 8 because I don't tend to hang out with people who plan everything in advance. I frequently do plan things a few days ahead of time but I'm not insulted in the slightest if someone calls and says "Hey I feel like going out tonight, wanna join me on a date?".
quote:


But this is about the dating period, not about when you're in a relationship and you know you'll be getting together.

And that's what I was talking about.
quote:


In terms of ownership, I want to be the most expensive car he's ever dreamed of  not a $200 junker he's stripping for parts.

I don't think about myself in terms of expenses. I want to be the car he loves, keeps and maintains, no matter how much I cost. To keep with the cars - I'd rather be the adored beat-up pick-up truck that gets driven every day than the fancy show car that sits collecting dust.

To each their own but I'd say my way has worked out pretty damn well.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 12/19/2009 10:39:12 AM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

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