RE: Married People and the Lifestyle

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ranja -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/4/2010 3:27:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23 quote: ORIGINAL: Acer49 I do not believe one's opinions should be based on personal involvement of the issue. Whether or not I was ever cheated on has no bearing on my opinion of it. Opinions stand or fall on their own merits. And yes, while I was out trying to serve my country, she was out trying to do the country. While I pride myself in being able to view situations in a purly logical manner, this betrayal did spill into other relationships. This is probably the one thing that angers me the most, not that she cheated on me, but that she removed my ability to be able to give my unconditional trust to another for a very long time. While I think your experience does have bearing on your opinion of it, I don't think it disqualifies your opinion. If anything it lends it more weight, since you can speak directly to the pain that sort of betrayal causes. That's important when considering opinions offered by others. I've never been cheated on (to my knowledge), so my opinion on it is purely theoretical. Yours is based on real-life experience of the situation in consideration. It's no different than taking veterans opinions on war more seriously, or rape victims opinion on rape. There's no real logic to the claim (or implied claim) that having experienced something mitigates one's opinion of that something. Thank you Psychonaut... i had missed that paragraph somehow Acer i am sorry for your hurt... now it makes sense that you sounded uppity... i have been cheated on aswell... it does pass it passes easier if you can understand why she did it... or maybe accept that you did not really know her to start with... also some people are just no material for long separations... it is a recipe for disaster if you distrust and be unreasonably jealous towards any new potential partners... self control is the answer there

wisdomtogive -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/4/2010 5:34:01 AM)
Hi Acer Yes it will be hard for you to trust another again, but the good news is You can. It is a long process, and from my end it is very hard on the one that loves the one who has been crippled by cheating. Took me years to help late hubby get through his pain and trust. Then when i met 1st Sir after hubby's death, i was face with that again..It is very hard to prove daily you can be trusted, and to the point at times why bother. Gratefully my Sir doesn't have that issue to cross, and if it is selfish to say i am glad. It is very taxing to secure someone in that area of trusting. I too have trust issues, but i have worked through them, so they arent standing inbetween people i love. Any ways Acer you can get pass this, just takes a lot of work on your part and the willingness to be open to loving verses being open 'they' will cheat on me. Best of luck wisdom

MsDDom -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/4/2010 7:06:21 AM)
...without reading any other comment, I wanted to respond directly. I have dealt w/ many married type trying to enter this lifestyle to cheat on their spouse. Bottom line it is cheating. I have no sympathy for them at all. I have heard the many excuses, the pleas, and the down right silly ideologies given to justify what they do. Like the OP, divorce is the option if a person is not satisfied or happy in their marriage. Having an open relationship where the spouse is aware of such activity, would solve the problem for those not willing to divorce b/c they love their spouse...of course, that's not happening. Understanding the mindset of married types who does this behind their spouses back is understanding greed and selfishness...its that simple.

roland23 -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/4/2010 8:01:51 AM)
I have a question: What constitutes cheating today in the BDSM world? Let me preface my statement by saying that I am an old man(50) and have been in the BDSM scene for three decades. Here are some scenarios: 1) I spank a married woman but have NO sexual contact. Her husband does not know. 2) I meet a married woman for coffee, tea or a meal. She wears what I tell her to wear and we engage in verbal BDSM. NO sexual contact. Her husband does not know. 3) I have cyber, phone etc BDSM conversations with a married woman. NO sexual contact. Her husband does not know. 4) I fantasize, dream and or think about BDSM with a married woman. NO sexual contact. Her husband does not know. Which of these constitutes "cheating?" Any clarification would be appreciated. Many thanks and HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!

Lockit -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/4/2010 8:07:24 AM)
In my opinion... whatever a spouse is not told, that includes someone that they don't know about, who is meeting, talking to or otherwise emotionally engaged with behind my back... is cheating in some sense and is not being honest. In many situations where people have been cheated on... and I have talked to more than a few in the course of making a living... that it wasn't the sexual cheating that hurt the most, but the dishonesty or the lack of being forthright. I won't forgive dishonesty on that level of sexual or relationship content.

MsDDom -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/4/2010 8:37:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: roland23 I have a question: What constitutes cheating today in the BDSM world? Let me preface my statement by saying that I am an old man(50) and have been in the BDSM scene for three decades. Here are some scenarios: 1) I spank a married woman but have NO sexual contact. Her husband does not know. 2) I meet a married woman for coffee, tea or a meal. She wears what I tell her to wear and we engage in verbal BDSM. NO sexual contact. Her husband does not know. 3) I have cyber, phone etc BDSM conversations with a married woman. NO sexual contact. Her husband does not know. 4) I fantasize, dream and or think about BDSM with a married woman. NO sexual contact. Her husband does not know. Which of these constitutes "cheating?" Any clarification would be appreciated. Many thanks and HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!! IMO, 1-3...would be cheating. You dreaming about a married woman is not...some of us have naughty thoughts. Now, ask yourself, why does the married woman feel that the husband doesn't need to know? Is she an honest wife? Some state that cheating is intimate time that is given to someone else, and that can be non-sexual or sexual. So, why can't the wife just tell her husband, "by the way, today I had lunch w/ a Dom who told me what to wear and I liked it"?

Acer49 -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/4/2010 8:43:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: roland23 I have a question: What constitutes cheating today in the BDSM world? Let me preface my statement by saying that I am an old man(50) and have been in the BDSM scene for three decades. Here are some scenarios: 1) I spank a married woman but have NO sexual contact. Her husband does not know. 2) I meet a married woman for coffee, tea or a meal. She wears what I tell her to wear and we engage in verbal BDSM. NO sexual contact. Her husband does not know. 3) I have cyber, phone etc BDSM conversations with a married woman. NO sexual contact. Her husband does not know. 4) I fantasize, dream and or think about BDSM with a married woman. NO sexual contact. Her husband does not know. Which of these constitutes "cheating?" Any clarification would be appreciated. Many thanks and HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!! #1 That is sexual contact and would constitute cheating. #2 This is role playing, but it is a physical meet, some may, some may not view it as cheating. Would they be willing to do it in their partners presense? #3 This is role playing a well and it is a verbal meet. Some would consider it cheating some would not. Would they do it in their partners presense? #4 Some religions believe that the thought alone constitutes the act of adultry. This is betweem the thinker and their GOD. I would say that most people while having issues with the married part, the fantasy in and of itself would not constitute cheating. If we were judged based on what we have thought as opposed to what we have actually done, we would all be in the doghouse.

wisdomtogive -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/4/2010 8:58:17 AM)
Roland, i am black and white on this topic. I see no shades of grey. Only secret to be kept from a spouse is a present you bought them or a surprise party. Keeping things hidden just adds to an unhealthy relationship. You have to realize i am bias. i married for death do us part. i married him to serve him, without knowing about BDSM, Ms or Ds. Yes i always like rough sex, but i also love the person more then my needs. Maybe that is something some people can't handle now a days. It was how I lived my life, and i still do. Serving and making someone feel love and appreciated is what i do, not what they don't do with me. i still got plenty out of my marriage, and wouldnt have changed a thing.

Acer49 -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/4/2010 9:10:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wisdomtogive Hi Acer Yes it will be hard for you to trust another again, but the good news is You can. It is a long process, and from my end it is very hard on the one that loves the one who has been crippled by cheating. Took me years to help late hubby get through his pain and trust. Then when i met 1st Sir after hubby's death, i was face with that again..It is very hard to prove daily you can be trusted, and to the point at times why bother. Gratefully my Sir doesn't have that issue to cross, and if it is selfish to say i am glad. It is very taxing to secure someone in that area of trusting. I too have trust issues, but i have worked through them, so they arent standing inbetween people i love. Any ways Acer you can get pass this, just takes a lot of work on your part and the willingness to be open to loving verses being open 'they' will cheat on me. Best of luck wisdom Thank you for your kind words Yes, it was a long time ago. We were both young. It took several years to get that monkey off my back. I was fortunite in that I was blessed with 3 relationships that encompassed the next 25 years of my life with three wonderful women who gave me faith and belief that trust was possible.

LadyPact -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/4/2010 11:39:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: roland23 I have a question: What constitutes cheating today in the BDSM world? Let me preface my statement by saying that I am an old man(50) and have been in the BDSM scene for three decades. Here are some scenarios: 1) I spank a married woman but have NO sexual contact. Her husband does not know. 2) I meet a married woman for coffee, tea or a meal. She wears what I tell her to wear and we engage in verbal BDSM. NO sexual contact. Her husband does not know. 3) I have cyber, phone etc BDSM conversations with a married woman. NO sexual contact. Her husband does not know. 4) I fantasize, dream and or think about BDSM with a married woman. NO sexual contact. Her husband does not know. Which of these constitutes "cheating?" Any clarification would be appreciated. Many thanks and HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!! I can only answer these things based on the agreements that My husband and I have made. What we do and how we work these things out is not going to work for everyone else. I'd be willing to bet that some monogamous folks out there think that any type of play/sex outside the relationship constitutes cheating because it's with someone else. For situations one through three, why doesn't the spouse know? I'm really curious about that. In our arrangement, we've promised to keep each other informed about our activities. By doing so, we're not breaking the trust of the other person. It's the hiding what you're doing that is the bigger issue for us. On a personal level, I don't see giving someone a spanking as cheating. We play casually all of the time with no sexual contact. In regards to meeting for a meal, I do that on a regular basis. If that person is also interested in BDSM, the subject is going to come up. I really don't understand what is so hard about saying, "Honey, I'm having lunch with so and so today". On cyber/phone sex, we tell each other. YIM has this great archiving feature. Any conversation is saved for the other person to have the ability to read. As for number four, nobody is responsible for what another person dreams up in their own head. There's no active participation from the married woman if you were fantasizing about her.

greeneyedreamer -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/4/2010 6:50:04 PM)
quote: quote: ORIGINAL: roland23 I have a question: What constitutes cheating today in the BDSM world? Let me preface my statement by saying that I am an old man(50) and have been in the BDSM scene for three decades. Here are some scenarios: 1) I spank a married woman but have NO sexual contact. Her husband does not know. 2) I meet a married woman for coffee, tea or a meal. She wears what I tell her to wear and we engage in verbal BDSM. NO sexual contact. Her husband does not know. 3) I have cyber, phone etc BDSM conversations with a married woman. NO sexual contact. Her husband does not know. 4) I fantasize, dream and or think about BDSM with a married woman. NO sexual contact. Her husband does not know. Which of these constitutes "cheating?" Any clarification would be appreciated. Many thanks and HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!! I can only answer these things based on the agreements that My husband and I have made. What we do and how we work these things out is not going to work for everyone else. I'd be willing to bet that some monogamous folks out there think that any type of play/sex outside the relationship constitutes cheating because it's with someone else. THAT is the only way to answer that LadyPact...TY!

ranja -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/5/2010 1:18:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: roland23 I have a question: What constitutes cheating today in the BDSM world? Let me preface my statement by saying that I am an old man(50) and have been in the BDSM scene for three decades. Here are some scenarios: 1) I spank a married woman but have NO sexual contact. Her husband does not know. 2) I meet a married woman for coffee, tea or a meal. She wears what I tell her to wear and we engage in verbal BDSM. NO sexual contact. Her husband does not know. 3) I have cyber, phone etc BDSM conversations with a married woman. NO sexual contact. Her husband does not know. 4) I fantasise, dream and or think about BDSM with a married woman. NO sexual contact. Her husband does not know. Which of these constitutes "cheating?" Any clarification would be appreciated. Many thanks and HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!! The first three would mean the woman is cheating her man on some level... why she does this is her business... maybe she is wicked and mean, maybe she is making a mistake, maybe she is in desperate need for a let out and her husband is not available for some reason. The last means you maybe get off on corrupting a married woman... maybe you like to take your dream further and look for easy prey... you can tell which taken ones are severely hunkering after some intimacy... and romance them... do you like to see them struggle with their conscience? Dangerous liaisons? There is also a possibility... given your interest in the taken... that the woman who fancies you is A. not taken or B. her husband does know... but lies about these facts to keep your attention in which case you are the one that she is cheating on... However, she is the cheater and you are the facilitator, and a happy new year to you too

roland23 -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/5/2010 7:37:38 AM)
Things have really changed since I started down the BDSM trail 30 years ago! Blame it on Paris, London, Fez and Montego Bay. I've attended college and traveled abroad and not everyone in the world has the same concept of "cheating." I've been reading "Lust in Translation" which looks at the way people around the world define infidelity. Itis available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders etc. Many AMERICANS believe that Tiger Woods committed the worst sin known to humankind. Worse than genocide. This is why the story was covered more extensively than REAL NEWS. It is clear that for some even fantasizing about a married woman is unpardonable. Mein Gedanken Sind Frei!(Please excuse my poor German, but it means my thoughts are free, it was sung by the prisoners of the Nazis). Why married or attached women? Neither myself or any of my friends TARGET these women, but a LOT of the most attractive women we encounter are married or attached. Many of my lesbian friends feel the same way. All of the good ones are taken, as another song goes. I am thankful for your clarification, I am thankful for the promise of the new year and I am most thankful for my BDSM players who share my values. See you when the snow clears and the mercury rises!

wisdomtogive -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/5/2010 10:02:29 AM)
Acer You are more then welcome. I am glad you found 3 women that were able to help you through the process. blessings, wisdomtogive

Acer49 -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/5/2010 2:22:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: roland23 Things have really changed since I started down the BDSM trail 30 years ago! Blame it on Paris, London, Fez and Montego Bay. I've attended college and traveled abroad and not everyone in the world has the same concept of "cheating." I've been reading "Lust in Translation" which looks at the way people around the world define infidelity. Itis available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders etc. Many AMERICANS believe that Tiger Woods committed the worst sin known to humankind. Worse than genocide. This is why the story was covered more extensively than REAL NEWS. It is clear that for some even fantasizing about a married woman is unpardonable. Mein Gedanken Sind Frei!(Please excuse my poor German, but it means my thoughts are free, it was sung by the prisoners of the Nazis). Why married or attached women? Neither myself or any of my friends TARGET these women, but a LOT of the most attractive women we encounter are married or attached. Many of my lesbian friends feel the same way. All of the good ones are taken, as another song goes. I am thankful for your clarification, I am thankful for the promise of the new year and I am most thankful for my BDSM players who share my values. See you when the snow clears and the mercury rises! Many AMERICANS believe that Tiger Woods committed the worst sin known to humankind. Worse than genocide. This is why the story was covered more extensively than REAL NEWS. This is so much crap. What Tiger Woods did or didn't do is no one's business except for the people involved and that does not include the american public. Just because Tiger Woods is able to hit a little ball in a hole in the ground better than most does not justify the "Real News" agencies the right to stoop to invading this man's privacy, Sensualization just for ratings edge is wrong on many levels and should be a civil crime if not a criminal one. This is staking and stalking is illegal

LafayetteLady -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/6/2010 12:26:45 AM)
Wow, this thread was all over the place. Would I be considered "judgmental" for saying I saw quite a lot of absolute bullshit in defense of betraying the trust of one's partner? Probably. But I think I'm in good company. ranja, You make the statement that those who are behave morally superior on the subject of cheating are either still so devastated by a past betrayal or likely because they are going to cheat themselves. You think that "cheating" can happen by mistake or accident? The spouse who didn't cheat "drove" them to do it. Quite frankly, what the hell have you been smoking? The ones who make the biggest stink about not being judgmental, that there are reasons others don't know about, blah, blah, blah are typically the ones who have cheated on their spouse. Look around the ones who try to make the strongest case for it being an excusable behavior, you included, are the people who have done it or are doing it and want to point out to everyone that there are logical reasons for it. If someone cheats, they can realize that it was a mistake to do so. However, it doesn't happen by accident. You talk about yourself just not having that kind of self control or self discipline as to prevent it from happening. If you were poor and wanted a Marc Jacobs handbag, is the store responsible for you stealing it because you just don't have the self control to stop yourself? No sex can make someone violent or perhaps even murderous? Shit that is even better than the PMS defense. "I'm sorry your Honor, but I wasn't getting laid frequently enough so I had to kill the bastard." Do you even see how ridiculous that is? Yes, a relationship CAN recover from an affair. It IS hard work and both have to really want to repair things. Other people, such as LadyPact, know themselves well enough that no matter how much they work at it, for them broken trust can not be repaired. It doesn't make them weak. Quite frankly, weakness is someone who can not exhibit enough self control to keep their pants on or their legs shut when an opportunity presents itself when they know it would betray their partner. "My partner drove me to cheat" is the oldest excuse in the book. The bottom line is that cheaters never want to take responsibility for their own actions. Excuses like "I couldn't control myself," "it was an accident," "he/she made me do it..." where is the personal responsibility for what happened? Acer49 was not talking about the GypsyMambos and the LadyPacts (those are the two who everyone knows are openly poly and quite happy and well respected here). These women, when realizing their "desires" but still, in the case of LP being deeply in love with their primary partner were adult enough, mature enough and respectful enough of their partners to tell them what they desired and worked (likely very hard) on carving out a situation where EVERYONE in the relationship could be happy. Acer49 was talking about those who excuse their behavior as a lack of self control, an all consuming need, primary partners who won't meet their needs (although in all liklihood they never expressed it anyway) as a means for justifying their behavior. Then we have the "camp" who thinks that because this is a BDSM community, we should all be open to other's choices. Why? Because BDSM somehow justifies deceit? There are plenty of things that most here will say "well, it isn't something I would want to partake in, but if those folks are happy with it, it is just fine and dandy." Watersports, toilet play, are just a couple of quick ones that many people will say about that. But some things are just wrong. "I want someone to castrate me." It goes beyond dangerous to ask someone to do that to you. It isn't being judgemental or close minded to tell someone, "hey, you are thinking about some really dangerous behavior here that could lead to all kinds of problems, you really need to rethink this idea. "I am looking for a slave that I can starve, break their bones and keep them locked in a dog house in the back yard." There does come a point where it no longer a matter of "your kink isn't my kink, but still it's ok." There is a point where someone might be crossing the line from relatively "healthy" consensual kink into, "gee I think you need psychiatric help." As for there being a difference between "morals" and the "law." Yea, you do realize that most statutes came into being because of something call "common law." Common law is nothing more than that society's "morals" being the accepted behaviors for the benefit of society. Sure it is against the law to murder someone, but that decision was based on the moral's of society. Perhaps the crux of the problem are those people that believe participating in BDSM is an excuse to not have any morals.

ranja -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/6/2010 12:39:48 AM)
But surely by inviting people to have an active opinion about whether cheating is right or wrong... and the general consensus is that cheating is wrong as a blanket rule (i surely got the idea you subscribed to this line of thinking Acer)... then no details are necessary other than the actual act of cheating being uncovered to condemn a person.... well surely this means that Tiger Woods as a public persona (so fair game) is in private an absolute weak asshole and the general public should be allowed to have this opinion... and he deserves his predicament... he could have easily prevented it... he only had to stay faithful...the question is will the fickle mob forgive and forget... usually as soon as the next celebrity slips up... juicy juicy... it keeps our minds of our own trouble... so many of us are faulty you know. this sick mob type of condemnation of people is exactly what you get with stupid blanket rules and a bunch of moral police type of shouty people... there is more to cheating than a black and white right or wrong i watched the film elegy last night... it was brilliant

ranja -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/6/2010 1:26:15 AM)
ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady ranja, You make the statement that those who are behave morally superior on the subject of cheating are either still so devastated by a past betrayal or likely because they are going to cheat themselves. in my experience yes... but i have experienced an extremely jealous boyfriend who then proceeded to cheat... my circumstances might taint my point of view You think that "cheating" can happen by mistake or accident? yes in my experience this is possible The spouse who didn't cheat "drove" them to do it. that might happen in certain situations Quite frankly, what the hell have you been smoking? pardon? The ones who make the biggest stink about not being judgmental, that there are reasons others don't know about, blah, blah, blah are typically the ones who have cheated on their spouse. Look around the ones who try to make the strongest case for it being an excusable behavior, you included, are the people who have done it or are doing it and want to point out to everyone that there are logical reasons for it. pardon? If someone cheats, they can realise that it was a mistake to do so. However, it doesn't happen by accident. You talk about yourself just not having that kind of self control or self discipline as to prevent it from happening. If you were poor and wanted a Marc Jacobs handbag, is the store responsible for you stealing it because you just don't have the self control to stop yourself? No sex can make someone violent or perhaps even murderous? Shit that is even better than the PMS defense. "I'm sorry your Honor, but I wasn't getting laid frequently enough so I had to kill the bastard." Do you even see how ridiculous that is? all i can say is that when my husband denied me sex over a long long period of time i got extremely upset about it and one time i was awake next to my snoring husband trying to control myself... but anger was raging through my body and the urge to take the bedside lamp and bash his brains in became so strong i totally broke down and suffered a sort of panic attack... it very much frightened me... but that was me i can only speak for myself. Yes, a relationship CAN recover from an affair. It IS hard work and both have to really want to repair things. That is exactly my point Other people, such as LadyPact, know themselves well enough that no matter how much they work at it, for them broken trust can not be repaired. It doesn't make them weak. Quite frankly, weakness is someone who can not exhibit enough self control to keep their pants on or their legs shut when an opportunity presents itself when they know it would betray their partner. I do not think LadyPact is weak (and what is more i think she is extremely well spoken)... i would think it weak of my Husband to leave me over a mishap after he virtually (cyber haha) drove me to it... "My partner drove me to cheat" is the oldest excuse in the book. The bottom line is that cheaters never want to take responsibility for their own actions. Excuses like "I couldn't control myself," "it was an accident," "he/she made me do it..." where is the personal responsibility for what happened? it is between TWO people that is my whole point... if BOTH of them refuse to take any responsibility then indeed the relationship is doomed... i think there will be no way to forgive if there is no understanding, this is exactly why so many people might cover up their cheat. Acer49 was not talking about the GypsyMambos and the LadyPacts (those are the two who everyone knows are openly poly and quite happy and well respected here). These women, when realising their "desires" but still, in the case of LP being deeply in love with their primary partner were adult enough, mature enough and respectful enough of their partners to tell them what they desired and worked (likely very hard) on carving out a situation where EVERYONE in the relationship could be happy. Yes and ideally that is... well ideal... as i have stated before though... most people do not live under ideal circumstances... or are unfortunately less well equipped to carve out their life like that. Acer49 was talking about those who excuse their behavior as a lack of self control, an all consuming need, primary partners who won't meet their needs (although in all liklihood they never expressed it anyway) as a means for justifying their behavior. so? what do we know about anybodies private affairs? Then we have the "camp" who thinks that because this is a BDSM community, we should all be open to other's choices. Why? Because BDSM somehow justifies deceit? There are plenty of things that most here will say "well, it isn't something I would want to partake in, but if those folks are happy with it, it is just fine and dandy." Watersports, toilet play, are just a couple of quick ones that many people will say about that. But some things are just wrong. "I want someone to castrate me." It goes beyond dangerous to ask someone to do that to you. It isn't being judgemental or close minded to tell someone, "hey, you are thinking about some really dangerous behavior here that could lead to all kinds of problems, you really need to rethink this idea. "I am looking for a slave that I can starve, break their bones and keep them locked in a dog house in the back yard." There does come a point where it no longer a matter of "your kink isn't my kink, but still it's ok." There is a point where someone might be crossing the line from relatively "healthy" consensual kink into, "gee I think you need psychiatric help." as i said before, i disagree that we are talking about abuse... cheating is not the same as cutting of a finger or castrating someone in my book i am with you there if the cheater is actually risking getting and transferring sexual deceases though As for there being a difference between "morals" and the "law." Yea, you do realize that most statutes came into being because of something call "common law." Common law is nothing more than that society's "morals" being the accepted behaviors for the benefit of society. Sure it is against the law to murder someone, but that decision was based on the moral's of society. Perhaps the crux of the problem are those people that believe participating in BDSM is an excuse to not have any morals. pardon? you sound like you have a bee in your bonnet and i suspect you have not read all my posts.

LadyPact -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/6/2010 11:47:58 AM)
Since My name is coming up, I'll address. quote: Other people, such as LadyPact, know themselves well enough that no matter how much they work at it, for them broken trust can not be repaired. It doesn't make them weak. Quite frankly, weakness is someone who can not exhibit enough self control to keep their pants on or their legs shut when an opportunity presents itself when they know it would betray their partner. quote: I do not think LadyPact is weak (and what is more i think she is extremely well spoken)... i would think it weak of my Husband to leave me over a mishap after he virtually (cyber haha) drove me to it... First, I'm going to thank both of you for your good opinions of Me. Personally, I'd have more issues in a relationship than lack of sex than if I lived with someone that I wouldn't be able to discuss such matters with. I know, in part, this is because of the personality type that I am, but I seriously can not imagine Myself living with a partner (the only exception I make here would be those living with a non consensually abusive partner) where I couldn't open My mouth and simply state what the problem is about our sex life. Every person has this ability. It may not change anything, but how is any partner supposed to know if the other doesn't tell them? quote: Acer49 was not talking about the GypsyMambos and the LadyPacts (those are the two who everyone knows are openly poly and quite happy and well respected here). These women, when realising their "desires" but still, in the case of LP being deeply in love with their primary partner were adult enough, mature enough and respectful enough of their partners to tell them what they desired and worked (likely very hard) on carving out a situation where EVERYONE in the relationship could be happy. quote: Yes and ideally that is... well ideal... as i have stated before though... most people do not live under ideal circumstances... or are unfortunately less well equipped to carve out their life like that. It really doesn't have anything to do with being 'ideal'. It has more to do with one partner stating 'I am lacking a, b, c in our lives and to resolve that we need to consider doing x, y, z'. If that fails, you go back to that partner and say, 'since we haven't been able to accomplish x, y, z, I am going to handle the situation in the form of 1, 2, 3'. Following through does mean that you will have to have the courage of your convictions and deal with the consequences of your actions. You may have to look at incompatibilities and what areas of life are more important to you than the other. If you (general you) have a relationship that is so based on co-dependency and hanging on to someone because your fear of being alone is so great or you love them without having personal boundaries, fine. Own it and accept it for what it is. At the same time, don't complain and try to throw blame. If you weren't part of the solution, you have to accept your active participation in the problem. Not every situation in life is one of those where you can have your cake and eat it, too.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/6/2010 4:39:27 PM)
LP, You are quite welcome. While poly would still never be something for me, it was almost exclusively your posts where I learned how it can work to everyone's benefit. That has been my point all along. We all have the ability to voice what we are feeling, thinking and wanting. Is it always easy? Of course not. I can't imagine that the first time you sat down to discuss your feelings with your husband was easy at all. But it is part of being a "grown up." It would seem the only difference you and I have as far as relationships go is between the monogamy and polyamorous. Everything else seems to be the same. If I can't talk with my partner about what I'm thinking and feeling, or enjoy their company more than just the sexual aspects, what the hell do you do when the sex is over, just roll over and go to sleep and exchange nothing but polite niceties until the next time you want to get laid? Sex is very important to me in my relationship. But it isn't the only thing. ranja, Everyone gets frustrated, no one is going to deny that. Nothing in life is perfect. But do you not see something inherently wrong with the fact that instead of talking with your husband about what you were feeling, you instead allowed yourself to become so angry that you wanted to bash his head in? That is not how adults should be handling things. As for your "experience" that cheating on your spouse can happen by accident, it would seem that we have different definitions of the term "accident." Even someone who would profess to be a slave (which I know that you do not) has the control over their body that they aren't going to "accidentally" have sex. The analogy LadyPact gave you was to attempt to illustrate how important trust is to many people. Often times, people feel so hurt and betrayed by their partner's cheating, they will often compare it to having their heart just ripped out of their chest. It's a HUGE deal to them. It doesn't mean they are weak because they know that they won't be able to rebuild their trust in that person. Sorry, but it is quite selfish of the cheater to expect them to forgive them. Yes it can and does happen, on this we both agree. But it isn't possibly for everyone and it doesn't make them weak. Your suspicions, like your reasoning are wrong. I have indeed read everyone of your posts. Honestly, each and every one of them is excuse after excuse to absolve the person who cheated. It was never your fault. Yes it takes two people for things to go wrong in a relationship. But your husband's behavior didn't drive you to cheat. Your inability to talk with him caused you to make the decision. Now as I understand it, you engage only in cyber affairs and that particular type of "cheating" is not very clear cut. Different people view secret cyber sex in a lot of different ways. The key for most though is the "secret." If you need to keep it secret, you know your partner wouldn't approve. You are correct, this post is not about abuse. It is about betrayal. Since you obviously didn't undersand my point, I will attempt to simplify it for you. Being involved in BDSM doesn't mean that all activities are "ok." There are many things that although not "ok" for one person are completely "ok" for someone else. There are, however, things that are just not ok for anyone. I think nearly everyone would agree that it is NEVER ok for a master to have a slave who doesn't work, and does not plan for the inevitable in case of death or the end of the relationship financially, and instead when they tire of the person just kicks them to the curb with the clothes on their back and no way to support themselves or a place to live. It's simply wrong to do that. Everyone agrees that within BDSM, trust is paramount to the relationship. When someone is being dishonest to their life partner (for lack of a better term), they are exhibiting that they are NOT trustworthy. Many of us would not want to trust someone with our hearts, our feelings or our bodies when we know they are not an honest person. Anyone who cheats in real life, not simply cyber sex, runs the risk of infecting their partner. The ONLY 100% sure way to not be exposed to an STD is to abstain from sex. Condoms are NOT 100% effective. If any types of body fluids come in contact, the risk exists. That isn't an opinion, it is a fact. No one needs to know the details of someone's private affairs or any of the excuses (i.e. my partner doesn't provide me with what I need bullshit). When someone is open with their spouse or partner about those "needs" and the two reach an agreement as to how that need can be met, everyone agrees that is between the two people making the agreement. However, there is NEVER an excuse, or a valid reason to betray the trust of your partner by sneaking around and having an affair. The bottom line is that if a person can't keep his/her pants or his/her legs closed because he/she simply MUST have his/her sexual needs met, that person is weak. They have no self control and some serious disrespect for their partner and the commitment they made to that person. That is why so many are not able to forgive a cheater. I would love to believe that it is clearer to you now, but I doubt that it is. In your mind and in your life, cheating is obviously ok if it means YOU get what you need and your partner is simply weak if they can't forgive your lack of self control.

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