RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (Full Version)

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lovingpet -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/7/2010 4:26:55 PM)

~FR~

I am coming in waaaaaaay late to the party on this one and didn't take time to read all the ruckus, so I have no idea where we are in this conversation.

I am one of those married people with an uninvolved spouse. It isn't like we didn't try. I am switch so we've tried him in the dominant position and the submissive position. He doesn't take well to having his life ordered for him (at least not in such an obvious fashion) and he doesn't have the personality traits necessary for a dominant partner for me. I also enjoy S/m on both sides. He didn't like receiving pain. It was very harmful to him mentally to inflict pain upon me. He usually got into it at the time, but morning regrets in the form of marks and bruises didn't set well with him at all. We agreed it really didn't work for us to share this with each other. We are basically vanilla with a few twists thrown it that will become clear later.

With his blessing, I searched/am searching for partners that are able to step into those positions. We both kind of figured it would be an itch I'd like to have scratched on occasion and these folks would just be close friends of ours with play priveleges. All that changed when my dominant partner got hold of me. There was a connection very similar in a lot of ways to what my husband and I share, different but similar, and he was able to hit all the right buttons when it came to my submissive desires. After one session, it was painfully clear that part time and just special friends wasn't going to cut it.

My husband and I have had to enter into a lot of deep emotional and relationship water to find a resolution that is both nurturing of me and my needs and fair to him. I say I am in a reluctant poly situation because I never really wanted to be nonmonogamous. It just happened that way. Life is funny like that. We have all determined the best way is for us to share our entire lives together. We will all be moving in a few months to make that a reality. It is the way that seems right for us. It may not be right for others. My biggest concerns all along the way were honoring the needs and emotions of both these men. I didn't want to disrespect the relationship either of them have with me nor did I want to use anyone.

I think it is fair to say that there are some married folks out there that do not need to stoop to deception and usury to meet their bdsm desires. Many do take the low road and I really find it distasteful. After all the hard work that I put in to keeping myself above board and working out the difficulties inherent to taking the hard road, I really don't appreciate what I perceive as laziness in others. My way isn't the way for everyone, but I don't think enough can be said for integrity. It is a trait I value highly. I do my best to display it as well. I never could have expected to be in the position I am in a million years. It isn't the way my storybook was supposed to go. I have had to abandon the fiction for the reality and work within it. I am sure my husband and, perhaps, my partner feel much the same. This isn't what anyone signed on for, but it is what we've got. We will do our best to make it something beautiful.

lovingpet



breatheasone -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/7/2010 4:27:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Even if there were no intimacy or sex in My life, I'm fine with that as long as I have My integrity.



That statement right there LadyPact is really what the whole cheating debate is about though isn't it? Perhaps the discussion should be about integrity and what it means. It seems to me that for far to many, it might as well not even exist.

Yeah right-on LafayetteLady, i have been lonely, and neglected. What i didn't do, was make my orgasm more important than my word(commitment).



cloudboy -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/7/2010 7:05:03 PM)

quote:

While I am not currently married, I was. It didn't end because of cheating either.

Obviously, you aren't a marriage counselor. Because "ideals" are a good foundation. You need a foundation to build on. Then the individuals involved can then build and adjust their relationship from there. Also, everyone's "foundation" isn't the same, because our ideals are not all the same.

"Mindlessly" repeating platitudes? Really? No one is mindlessly repeating anything. That would indicate that we are incapable of reasoning out our own beliefs. The ridiculousness of that statement is humorous. Might even call it "mindless"


Yes, you are unmarried -- so you fit the profile. Oftentimes those from failed marriages, especially ones of short duration -- are even more judgmental than single people.

"Realities," "experience," "flexibility," and "understanding" provide better foundations for relationships than idealism.

And yes, "cheating is always wrong" is a mindless platitude. Mindfulness is more about observation, listening, humility, suspension of judgment, and thinking of ways to be helpful.



LafayetteLady -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/7/2010 7:32:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Yes, you are unmarried -- so you fit the profile. Oftentimes those from failed marriages, especially ones of short duration -- are even more judgmental than single people.



Ah, yes, the ever popular "profiling." Interestingly enough, it is those who choose to deceive their spouse that are always saying that it is ok.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

"Realities," "experience," "flexibility," and "understanding" provide better foundations for relationships than idealism.



It is of course much better to build a foundation that says "Realisitcally, I must be flexible and understand that my partner can't keep it in his pants.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

And yes, "cheating is always wrong" is a mindless platitude. Mindfulness is more about observation, listening, humility, suspension of judgment, and thinking of ways to be helpful.


To be a mindless platitude would mean that there was little thought or intellectual reasoning behind the statement. That certainly isn't the case. The lack of integrity that is hand in hand with cheating on a spouse is what makes it wrong. I've "listened" (in this instance read) all the "reasons" people have used to excuse going behind their partners back to get their sexual needs met. Because let's be clear, in 95% of the cases for BDSM, the people who are cheating will claim up and down how BDSM is a "need" they have to have fufilled, but in a case of a submissive, that "need" is not about going and cleaning their dom's house or running their errands or any of the other mundane activities that go with that kind of relationship. The "need" they are looking for is the sexual one. Same thing with a dominant. The dominant isn't typically looking for a submissive they can help grow, they want the sex. It would be interesting to hear from the cheaters how much of the time they spend with their mistress/man they are cheating with is spent on sexual activities vs. the other parts of BDSM. Bet it isn't much.

Does it suck when your partner is not meeting your sexual needs? Hell yes. My partner's sex drive lately has gone way down and it makes me crazy. My needs in that area are quite a bit more than his, always have been. But I'm not going to go looking for someone else to fill in the gaps, even though if we discussed it, he would be ok with it. I don't want to go outside of our relationship. That's just how I am. The point is though that if I felt that I really couldn't live without more than what he was giving me, I would have the respect for him to discuss it, I wouldn't do it behind his back. We've been together 14 years the 23rd of this month. So even though we aren't married (by choice), it faults your "theory" because cheating doesn't just happen in marriages. It happens in committed relationships.

I think more highly of myself and of him to be dishonest about something that big.



agirl -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/7/2010 9:08:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

Fair enough, if you don't care, you don't care. Perhaps if more people were up front about their views on fidelity it would eliminate a lot of the problems. For instance, if people told one another up front how they view fidelity, then BOTH parties would be on the same page from the start. 


 My views on it are pretty clear. Most people don't have much of a view beyond * I don't want to be cheated on*.......... but that doesn't automatically transfer to them behaving in a way that doesn't totally alienate their partner, either.

Just because I think the way I do doesn't make it more likely that I'll be *cheated on*, or that I'll cheat.

agirl




i guess what i'm REALLY missing here is...... Why is it ok to cheat? If a persons partner is treating them that badly, end the relationship. Why lie, sneak, and stuff like that? How is that ok?  Since when do two wrongs make a right? Why is staying, and cheating, lying, sneaking, ok?



I didn't say it was *wrong or right*. I didn't say it was *ok* or *not ok*.  I said that I've seen close-hand, that there is pain on both sides and that I , personally, don't have a black or white stance on it. I'm not condemning or condoning.

A bit like the *all stealing is wrong*......if a starving child steals a piece of bread..........or one of my kids stole from the shop across the street. In one case, I might think it's *wrong* , in the other I'm probably going to think it was pretty understandable, whether it's fundamentally *wrong* or not.

agirl











breatheasone -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/7/2010 9:13:48 PM)

i do realize people will vary on this. i just think this is one of those things that should be crystal clear in the beginning though, so no one gets hurt down the road. To make sure you, and your partner(the word you meaning people in general) have the same idea of what fidelity is.



Acer49 -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/7/2010 9:16:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

~FR~

I am coming in waaaaaaay late to the party on this one and didn't take time to read all the ruckus, so I have no idea where we are in this conversation.

I am one of those married people with an uninvolved spouse. It isn't like we didn't try. I am switch so we've tried him in the dominant position and the submissive position. He doesn't take well to having his life ordered for him (at least not in such an obvious fashion) and he doesn't have the personality traits necessary for a dominant partner for me. I also enjoy S/m on both sides. He didn't like receiving pain. It was very harmful to him mentally to inflict pain upon me. He usually got into it at the time, but morning regrets in the form of marks and bruises didn't set well with him at all. We agreed it really didn't work for us to share this with each other. We are basically vanilla with a few twists thrown it that will become clear later.

With his blessing, I searched/am searching for partners that are able to step into those positions. We both kind of figured it would be an itch I'd like to have scratched on occasion and these folks would just be close friends of ours with play priveleges. All that changed when my dominant partner got hold of me. There was a connection very similar in a lot of ways to what my husband and I share, different but similar, and he was able to hit all the right buttons when it came to my submissive desires. After one session, it was painfully clear that part time and just special friends wasn't going to cut it.

My husband and I have had to enter into a lot of deep emotional and relationship water to find a resolution that is both nurturing of me and my needs and fair to him. I say I am in a reluctant poly situation because I never really wanted to be nonmonogamous. It just happened that way. Life is funny like that. We have all determined the best way is for us to share our entire lives together. We will all be moving in a few months to make that a reality. It is the way that seems right for us. It may not be right for others. My biggest concerns all along the way were honoring the needs and emotions of both these men. I didn't want to disrespect the relationship either of them have with me nor did I want to use anyone.

I think it is fair to say that there are some married folks out there that do not need to stoop to deception and usury to meet their bdsm desires. Many do take the low road and I really find it distasteful. After all the hard work that I put in to keeping myself above board and working out the difficulties inherent to taking the hard road, I really don't appreciate what I perceive as laziness in others. My way isn't the way for everyone, but I don't think enough can be said for integrity. It is a trait I value highly. I do my best to display it as well. I never could have expected to be in the position I am in a million years. It isn't the way my storybook was supposed to go. I have had to abandon the fiction for the reality and work within it. I am sure my husband and, perhaps, my partner feel much the same. This isn't what anyone signed on for, but it is what we've got. We will do our best to make it something beautiful.

lovingpet


Your way may not be for everyone, but maybe it should be.
You had needs, and the first person you went to was your spouse. You tried very hard, in hopes that he would be him who could satisy those needs, When that didn't work, you discussed and jointly agreed on getting another. You at no time attempted to lie or deceive your spouse. You had his support. This is the way it should be done. From where I sit, you did everything right and nothing wrong. and seems to be working.



ranja -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/8/2010 2:05:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I have it all sorted for My life.  I would have to say that it doesn't necessarily have to do with Me having an understanding husband.  It has to do with the standards that I have set for My life and those who are intimately involved in My life.

First and foremost, I have to have a good relationship with Myself.  It's like any other behavior that do not find acceptable for Me to participate in.  My ability to stand behind My word in the agreements that I have with My husband are more important to Me.  Even if there were no intimacy or sex in My life, I'm fine with that as long as I have My integrity.



That is good, i do think your husband is understanding and obviously all of you involved are open to poly and manage to make it work... very admirable.

This is not possible for everyone... also some people might attempt poly to see the whole arrangement blow up in their face... and everybody gets hurt... while maybe a secret sneaky cheat would have taken the pressure off and the couple might stick it till death... in that case, obviously both scenarios are flawed, but did the honesty pay off?

I have to say poly as an above board arrangement would not be accepted by my Husband... He would not consider it at all and look at me as if i had lost my mind if i would even suggest it... also it would not do for me... as i can not bond with more than one person intimately at the time... basically i want MY HUSBAND... but at the same time i could fuck for Britain... i personally do not relate sex to love necessarily, never have done... i can be faithful, but to deny me sex and insist me to be faithful is not realistic really... it really does my head in.
Somehow and luckily i mostly managed to hold on to my integrity (cyber being my out let eventually)... i personally think it was more luck than honesty... my integrity would more have been that i would have spared Him the truth... if i would have 'fallen' for the flesh which i could have done... and then indeed i would have omitted the truth... as he himself tells me is the best way to go about it... because if i DO cheat AND tell Him, WE are history HE says.
integrity does not necessarily mean behaving like a saint for me.

The first time my heart broke was when my parents split up... they had no good reasons to split up really, they are both faulty but lovable people, they are both weak and strong and stubborn... there were other people involved, but the reason for the divorce was as in most cases for 'irreconcilable differences'. They both had a few other partners since ... now they are both alone... both somewhat disappointed and crestfallen... their youth gone... some health issues... some loneliness issues...
There is no way obviously that they could or even want to get it back together... and i understand how they struggled with eachother when they were together... why they could not sort it... at the same time it still is heartbreaking that they didn't... that they were not able to cut eachother more slack and work through it... because as i see it, they both could have been so much richer in so many ways if they would have stuck it... obviously i do not tell them my thoughts, i am sure they think about it sometimes themselves, their children are a constant reminder just because we are... and i feel for them.
And the point is not to stay together for the sake of it, but be miserable... the point is to stay together and to make HAPPINESS.

Then again, some people are just plain wrong for eachother and after they finally split they are doing just absolutely great on their own or they might even meet their dream lover, yay...



breatheasone -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/8/2010 5:12:48 AM)

Ranja, i think its good that you know yourself, from what you have said, you and your husband want a "Don't ask, don't tell" kind of relationship. As long as both partners agree to a situation its cool. The problem comes when lying, sneaking, and cheating, magically become "ok" because telling the truth would cause trouble. Thats flawed thinking...Telling the truth about a certain behavior ISN'T the problem. The fact that the behavior was done, that "needs" to be lied about is the problem. How about people just DON'T DO something they need to lie about? Since when is simply NOT lying, sneaking, or cheating behaving like a saint?



ranja -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/8/2010 5:58:35 AM)

are you saying that simply not telling the truth is ok?
but lieing is wrong?

and no, me and my Husband do not really want a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of relationship at all
ideally neither of us would cheat or drive the other one to insanity, we would be able to be absolutely, brutally and selfishly honest about every little thing while totally fucking eachothers brains out and we would always feel exactly the same way as eachother about every single subject.

unfortunately we do not seem to have an ideal relationship



breatheasone -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/8/2010 6:07:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ranja

are you saying that simply not telling the truth is ok?
but lieing is wrong?

and no, me and my Husband do not really want a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of relationship at all
ideally neither of us would cheat or drive the other one to insanity, we would be able to be absolutely, brutally and selfishly honest about every little thing while totally fucking eachothers brains out and we would always feel exactly the same way as eachother about every single subject.

unfortunately we do not seem to have an ideal relationship

Ranja, to me a lie of omission is the same as ANY other lie. and i don't understand what you mean about "absolutely, brutally and selfishly honest about every little thing" i personally wouldn't be with someone like this. But i do KNOW that its possible to be honest, and not brutal, or selfish. Perhaps this is one of the problems, you seem to equate honesty with being bad, and brutal. Instead of honesty being good, and up lifting. Honesty is how one builds trust, and intimacy, perhaps this is one of the obsticals you face?



ranja -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/8/2010 6:23:04 AM)

it is ok Candy... i do not really face any problems at the moment,
i also do not equate honesty to being something bad...
i am saying honesty is not always appreciated,
it might be a wish that you can be always honest and that your honesty will always be accepted
and also you might wish that your partner will always be honest to you, and that you will always appreciate that honesty aswell
but i my experience that is simply not realistic, it is idealistic

i am not saying that everybody should go around lieing their pants off, but always being honest is not an option either,
hence my stance: life is not black and white



cloudboy -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/8/2010 6:35:20 AM)

quote:

mindless platitude


Maybe "boilerplate" would be a better word choice.

When one reaches the same conclusion about everybody in a particular group, it is hard to see mindfulness in the process.



breatheasone -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/8/2010 6:36:55 AM)

Fair enough Ranja, i truly hope that stance continues to work well for you, and your loved ones. And i also hope Y'all had a good News Years too! If i didn't mention it before.



wisdomtogive -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/8/2010 6:44:24 AM)

Ranja
First do know that i am not your judge or jury, and personally my opinions are just mine. I seek to not change your mind or have you see my view as an absolute in everyone's life. You are living your life and have rationalize your reasons to fit your situation. Some would do the same and some would not, plus there are a lot of shades of grey.

Though i totally disagree with your thinking, i do applaud you for taking a stand and being okay with you. To me that takes guts.:)



breatheasone -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/8/2010 6:59:40 AM)

Well said Wisdomtogive!



agirl -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/8/2010 8:06:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

i do realize people will vary on this. i just think this is one of those things that should be crystal clear in the beginning though, so no one gets hurt down the road. To make sure you, and your partner(the word you meaning people in general) have the same idea of what fidelity is.


It's not difficult for me to find it understandable that situations arise where people are susceptable to solace elsewhere (not just sexual)....and still expect fidelity in my relationship.

Just because I've found it understandable in other people's relationships, doesn't mean that I'm going to be fine with it in mine. That's because M and I are both fully in our relationship. That's not been the case in the relationships I know of. There's been an element of bailing out by one of them , that isn't present in mine. There's no point comparing my relationship to theirs.

It's easy for me to say that *I* don't want to be cheated on.........I'd hate it and I'd be hurt........but as I've never BEEN cheated on (that I know of) I have no idea how I'd react. It'd depend on the circumstances.

I can't say with any certainty that I'd end my relationship if my owner wasn't faithful to me. I've never asked him to be faithful........there never seemed to be the need to.

He knows the way I think and feel and it doesn't make it more likely to happen JUST because he knows there's the possibility that I wouldn't end it , if he wasn't faithful.

I don't know of anyone that's gone into a relationship declaring that they're going to be unfaithful.......lol

agirl







roland23 -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/8/2010 8:08:48 AM)

What an "interesting" column!

Let me reply. Most of the folks I've met through BDSM are pretty easygoing, not self-righteous and judgmental. They have a "Whatever happens on Brokeback" kind of attitude. For us, BDSM is not just about sex. For many people however, BDSM leads to intercourse, marriage etc. Congratulations, all the best, etc.

When I was in the vanilla world, I had LOTS of women cheat on me. Why? Because they could! They were young and attractive and could get any man they wanted. Far from being weak, they were POWERFUL. If I am reincarnated, please make me a mildly attractive twenty or thirtysomething woman in America, so I can have men flock to me. It is called a "seller's market."

Of the long term vanilla relationships I had, most were with women who were suspicious and jealous. Why? Because they were insecure and paranoid! Perhaps they watched too many soaps or dated too many losers before they met me! I think things would have worked out better today. Cell phones, twittering, tweeting, twinking and other electronic devices would have allowed them to keep track of me at all times. "He is in the bathroom at work right now, he is going into a stall"

I married one of these attractive yet paranoid vanilla women in the late 1980s. We divorced within five years. For those who say just get a divorce, it can be an expensive and time-consuming process. It is not as EZ as you might think.

P.S. Does "tell your spouse everything" include corporate trade secrets? What if you work in the national security field? No wonder we have all these intelligence lapses. Our spies tell their spouses everything and pretty soon, the terrorists hear about it. Thanks folks for making life on this planet less secure!!!!!!!!!!!!



Lockit -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/8/2010 9:23:26 AM)

I am sitting here ready to vomit, knowing that the chances are, I was just the other woman and there is another… other woman. At first when I found out, I was happy. I had proven my gut feelings that came too late and I had at least in my mind been vindicated for all he said and did to me. But as I absorb it all and as I sit and look at their wedding picture and see the other reports on how she filed to end their relationship just days after he got to my house… I want to vomit! I believe I was the other woman! How dare the fucker involve me in maybe hurting another woman… a woman he promised to love? How stupid of me… yet how could I know?

Ahhh yes… background searches… like how I actually found out.

When someone cheats and lies… there are effects and other people can be hurt. So far in this little situation, there is the wife… oh and she wasn’t the first he cheated on, as he left his family to get his kink on and after three months of online, he had found his dominant and left. I really feel for the child he no longer sees and unsuspecting partner. Did he stop? Oh no… he found others… married one and then was online getting his kink on and finding other’s. He found me… then from there he found another and her family.

Who all gets hurt? My opinions about married cheaters and liars stem not from a moral belief kind of place… but a place where people get hurt. So call me judgmental if you like… but lies hurt and cheating people hurts and the people who so readily put their own wants first and don’t consider others… well… they drag others into it with them.

I know two couples who survived cheating. I know far more who didn’t. I wonder in each situation, how it all filtered down and how many got hurt.



LookieNoNookie -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/8/2010 9:24:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

I am sitting here ready to vomit, knowing that the chances are, I was just the other woman and there is another… other woman. At first when I found out, I was happy. I had proven my gut feelings that came too late and I had at least in my mind been vindicated for all he said and did to me. But as I absorb it all and as I sit and look at their wedding picture and see the other reports on how she filed to end their relationship just days after he got to my house… I want to vomit! I believe I was the other woman! How dare the fucker involve me in maybe hurting another woman… a woman he promised to love? How stupid of me… yet how could I know?

Ahhh yes… background searches… like how I actually found out.

When someone cheats and lies… there are effects and other people can be hurt. So far in this little situation, there is the wife… oh and she wasn’t the first he cheated on, as he left his family to get his kink on and after three months of online, he had found his dominant and left. I really feel for the child he no longer sees and unsuspecting partner. Did he stop? Oh no… he found others… married one and then was online getting his kink on and finding other’s. He found me… then from there he found another and her family.

Who all gets hurt? My opinions about married cheaters and liars stem not from a moral belief kind of place… but a place where people get hurt. So call me judgmental if you like… but lies hurt and cheating people hurts and the people who so readily put their own wants first and don’t consider others… well… they drag others into it with them.

I know two couples who survived cheating. I know far more who didn’t. I wonder in each situation, how it all filtered down and how many got hurt.


Cheaters suck. Lowlifes.



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