RE: Married People and the Lifestyle

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cloudboy -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/6/2010 9:05:08 PM)
quote: Wow, this thread was all over the place. Would I be considered "judgmental" for saying I saw quite a lot of absolute bullshit in defense of betraying the trust of one's partner? Probably. But I think I'm in good company. Yes, you would be extremely judgmental. Whenever the other side is "bullshit" and you are "totally right" -- that classifies you as highly judgmental. The smarter tack is to let people find out for themselves what works in their relationships without standing on the sidelines making up absolutist rules based on your own personal value system.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/6/2010 11:11:21 PM)
Actually, it is a pretty normal standard, even in lifestyle communities to think that cheating behind your partners back and then placing the "reasons" for it on others is tacky and dishonest. When someone doesn't value honesty in their relationships, that's fine. When they blame their dishonesty on the actions of the person they are being dishonest with, it is tacky and immature. There is never a "good" reason to cheat on your partner behind their back. That isn't simply MY personal value system, it is pretty common. I am always amused by people who claim that being against cheating is being highly judgemental. I'm against murder, too. And dishonesty. Basically all the things where one person seems to think they have the right to hurt someone else in order to meet their own needs. While I have no desire to be poly, I don't condemn those who are. I would never accept MY partner wanting to have their needs met by someone else, but I have zero issues with those who have communicated that desire to their partner and the two have made their own personal agreement as to what they will do. It really isn't about the cheating. It is about the dishonesty. No one likes to be lied to, especially by someone they have made a commitment to. So if that is being "highly judgemental," so be it. I'm judgemental of murderers, rapists, pedophiles and thiefs, too and have no desire to hear how they excuse their behavior.

ranja -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/7/2010 2:34:02 AM)
in answer to LafayetteLady Everyone gets frustrated, no one is going to deny that. Nothing in life is perfect. But do you not see something inherently wrong with the fact that instead of talking with your husband about what you were feeling, you instead allowed yourself to become so angry that you wanted to bash his head in? That is not how adults should be handling things. I am 43 years old... i have been with my Husband for almost 20 years. I love Him more than anybody else i have ever loved Of course i should not even have felt like bashing his head in... and believe me i tried to talk about things... for years sometimes people you love shut you out... you try to find a way back in... you try and try and try and try... you are afraid that they might not care about you at all... they must not love you anymore if they just shut you out like this... you might even think that they actually must be cheating on you... it is a very lonely place if you are not alone but shut out As for your "experience" that cheating on your spouse can happen by accident, it would seem that we have different definitions of the term "accident." Even someone who would profess to be a slave (which I know that you do not) has the control over their body that they aren't going to "accidentally" have sex. My main point about that is that not all cheaters are simply cheaters, because that is what they do... cheat.... some people do NOT WANT to cheat at all, but still find themselves falling for temptation, you obviously can not relate to this scenario at all. The analogy LadyPact gave you was to attempt to illustrate how important trust is to many people. Often times, people feel so hurt and betrayed by their partner's cheating, they will often compare it to having their heart just ripped out of their chest. Well, i certainly felt like i had a hole in my chest when i wanted to bash his brains in... how do you think i was hurting to feel like that? It's a HUGE deal to them. It doesn't mean they are weak because they know that they won't be able to rebuild their trust in that person. Sorry, but it is quite selfish of the cheater to expect them to forgive them. Yes it can and does happen, on this we both agree. But it isn't possibly for everyone and it doesn't make them weak. I think the weakness is in both the cheater but also the in other if they refuse to see their own part. Your suspicions, like your reasoning are wrong. I have indeed read everyone of your posts. Honestly, each and every one of them is excuse after excuse to absolve the person who cheated. It was never your fault. Yes it takes two people for things to go wrong in a relationship. But your husband's behavior didn't drive you to cheat. Your inability to talk with him caused you to make the decision. Now as I understand it, you engage only in cyber affairs and that particular type of "cheating" is not very clear cut. Different people view secret cyber sex in a lot of different ways. The key for most though is the "secret." If you need to keep it secret, you know your partner wouldn't approve. I am not wrong. you simply disagree with me, which is your entire right you are wrong to state that i am wrong, you are pompous I would love to believe that it is clearer to you now, but I doubt that it is. In your mind and in your life, cheating is obviously ok if it means YOU get what you need and your partner is simply weak if they can't forgive your lack of self control. I think you might have been cheated on and still very sore about it. and you are quite agressively picking on me... does it make you feel better? in general: maybe there might be a difference between a sub type person trying to talk to a shut down Dominant and a Dominant trying to talk to a shut down sub... I don't know if there is, but it was very difficult for me to keep trying to get into my Dominant Husband... He simply did not want to know... how do you keep pestering someone about a 'fault' a lack of attention from their part... how do you address this if you are submissive and your Dom simply is not interested... Also things between us are good now, better than ever... i did manage to 'break through' and it was my 'cheating' with cyber and extremely good advice i received from a Dominant man here that made the difference and eventually it was not talking that made the difference... it was actions... and my Husband knows He was 'wrong' too, He says it is very shameful to know you are doing your partner wrong and know you are the cause of their distress and still for wicked selfish reasons not reach out to them... He also says that people who commit adultery AND value their marriage should make absolutely sure they are discreet and NEVER tell their partner. and that is my advise too

breatheasone -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/7/2010 2:44:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ranja in answer to LafayetteLady in general: maybe there might be a difference between a sub type person trying to talk to a shut down Dominant and a Dominant trying to talk to a shut down sub... I don't know if there is, but it was very difficult for me to keep trying to get into my Dominant Husband... He simply did not want to know... how do you keep pestering someone about a 'fault' a lack of attention from their part... how do you address this if you are submissive and your Dom simply is not interested... Also things between us are good now, better than ever... i did manage to 'break through' and it was my 'cheating' with cyber and extremely good advice i received from a Dominant man here that made the difference and eventually it was not talking that made the difference... it was actions... and my Husband knows He was 'wrong' too, He says it is very shameful to know you are doing your partner wrong and know you are the cause of their distress and still for wicked selfish reasons not reach out to them... He also says that people who commit adultery AND value their marriage should make absolutely sure they are discreet and NEVER tell their partner. and that is my advise too WOW..... just wow [8\|]

cloudboy -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/7/2010 7:13:33 AM)
It has been my experience that unmarried people have little real time grasp of what LT marriage is and what goes into it. The strict, unyielding views that you encounter, those come from marital ideals -- rarely martial experience. There's the rub. A person would prefer to stone you to death than give up their own personal ideals. Marital ideals are a poor foundation for marriage counseling / understanding, but that won't stop anyone from mindlessly repeating their own platitudes. No matter what happens, anyone who fails to conform to the marital ideal is "wrong." This "normal attitude" helps explain why Clinton got impeached for Lewinski, and why BUSH got a free pass for an illegal war. Hell, Tiger woods made the cover of the New York Post a record 20x in a row. The gallery eats this shit up every time, without fail.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/7/2010 10:56:23 AM)
To ranja: I'm well aware of what it is like when someone you love shuts you out. You can feel powerless and no matter what you try you can't get through. And you know what? Just as much as I believe cheating is wrong, I believe it was just as wrong of your husband to do that to you. That is disrespectful just as much as cheating. Ok, so you want to make the point that someone who cheats can still be a very nice person. I never said they couldn't be. But honesty is still not a priority. People in BDSM may not be "open" to society about their activities, but that is because so many people don't understand what is involved and it can affect their jobs and such. But as a general rule, when a person needs to hide an activity from their partner, such as having sexual relationships with someone else, doing drugs, etc. it is because they know their partner would view the activities as inappropriate or be hurt by them. You keep coming back to the whole "falling for temptation," but somehow don't see that as weak. It doesn't matter what the temptation is, the inability to exhibit self control is weakness. Whether it is cheating on your diet, you spouse, not being able to resist doing drugs or getting drunk. Lack of self control is NOT a positive character trait. You keep talking about how it is so weak and horrible for one partner not to forgive another's cheating. I have to say that when considering whether or not to forgive someone for a betrayal, "I couldn't resist the temptation" is the least likely reason that will get forgiveness. Why? Because it is like saying to the partner that they just don't mean enough for the cheater to exhibit self control. As usual, you "think" wrong. I wasn't cheated on and still sore about it. Everyone that has big problems with the concept of deception is not necessarily feeling that way because it has happened to them. That is just another excuse for trying to say that others just don't understand the situation. I'm not "quite agressively" picking on you. I'm responding to your posts. Much of what you say makes so little sense. I'm sorry that you are offended that me or anyone else is trying to point that out to you. I realize that it isn't going to change your view of things. I'm very glad that things are better between your husband and you. The dom who helped you simply provided you with alternatives that for whatever reason you hadn't thought of yourself. You might have eventually figured it our yourself, or gotten similar advice from someone else. It doesn't matter how you resolved the situation, only that you managed to resolve it in a way that was amenable to both you and your husband. I don't believe that it should be different just because of D/s. In all relationsnhips, when something is wrong, it needs to be fixed, and just because someone has the title of "dominant" in their relationship doesn't mean they get to ignore it. I would say that they are probably even MORE responsible for working to make things right because of the fact that they are supposed to be leading the relationship. As for your husband's view that it should always be hidden. Obviously, he figures that ignorance is bliss. It contradicts the idea that he would be completely unforgiving should he find out though. And typically, the partner being cheated on always finds out.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/7/2010 11:03:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy It has been my experience that unmarried people have little real time grasp of what LT marriage is and what goes into it. The strict, unyielding views that you encounter, those come from marital ideals -- rarely martial experience. There's the rub. A person would prefer to stone you to death than give up their own personal ideals. Marital ideals are a poor foundation for marriage counseling / understanding, but that won't stop anyone from mindlessly repeating their own platitudes. While I am not currently married, I was. It didn't end because of cheating either. Obviously, you aren't a marriage counselor. Because "ideals" are a good foundation. You need a foundation to build on. Then the individuals involved can then build and adjust their relationship from there. Also, everyone's "foundation" isn't the same, because our ideals are not all the same. "Mindlessly" repeating platitudes? Really? No one is mindlessly repeating anything. That would indicate that we are incapable of reasoning out our own beliefs. The ridiculousness of that statement is humorous. Might even call it "mindless"

agirl -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/7/2010 12:45:10 PM)
I rarely bother with the cheating debates any longer. I know a quite a few people that have been susceptable to intimacy elsewhere ... despite wanting it, looking for it, pestering for it, waiting for it, hoping for it, doing all they can to foster it .....with their long term life partners. None of them leapt into bed with the first passing bit of interest. The biggest slap in the face to the wounded was their OWN part in shoving their partner out in the cold and the intimacy that they COULD have provided and regretted losing ....NOT the fact that the intimacy led to sex. I've seen the pain on all sides, I've heard the stories from both sides, I know what kept them in their less than content relationships, enduring their private hell because of the many, many strands that made up their long term life together. In a few of them...the emotional and physical leaving was understood and the option of renewing was there. .....but it was the cheater that couldn't trust their partner, NOT the other way around. Having seen the angst that some very decent people suffer, cheated and cheater, I really have no stance on the rightness or wrongness of it overall. It's just sad when relationships that have the potential to be content and happy, slide away with thoughtlessness on ANY side. agirl

ranja -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/7/2010 1:14:41 PM)
To LafayetteLady: I am happy to see that you do not sound totally condescending anymore... just a little. Of course it was just as wrong of Him to shut me out... i knew that all along and He did too really, He admitted as such when He was finally ready to be honest with me... That is my whole point, so i am happy to see you agree too. So, have we now arrived at the conclusion that both the person who cheats and the person that drives someone in lonely desperation to commit such an act are both weak people for not facing their issues head on immediately when they arise? By the way both the cheater and their spouse might be absolutely awful people... i never said that anybody who cheats is a nice person... nor their spouse. i also never said falling for temptation is not weak... i said refusing to take SOME (not ALL) blame as to why your partner might have fallen for temptation is JUST AS WEAK Saying "i could not resist the temptation" is not an excuse... it is simply what might happen when people are vulnerable and... weak... the REASON why they may be vulnerable and weak is what is important to sort out the mess... Maybe the cheating brings on shame and guilt and might drive the cheater to make amends... maybe it gives them the power to strengthen themselves, maybe confess or end their marriage... Maybe they find it eases their life and takes pressure off their partner, i don't know... There are so many stories, movies and books about how people live their lives... it is not all black and white no matter how much you want it to be. And you can not neatly order things and put time limits on so easily... It is not like he does this and then i do that and this is how it makes us feel now and that is why we decide to do so and so tomorrow... Things are much less clear and things slowly change and some trouble creeps in and the mood shifts sometimes without even noticing and you wonder what happened and where to start to make things right... I think lots of what i post makes perfect sense, that you do not understand me is not my problem, and i am always happy to explain things. Although i have no illusions that you will change your mind and indeed you won't change mine... also i am not offended that you or others disagree with me. And i am happy for you that you have never been cheated on, keep up the good work Oh and about what i did to 'break into' my Husband as suggested by this on-line Dominant... i would have never in a million years thought of that myself... nor would i have had the courage to do it had i not had this push... also i would not have had this advice from anybody but this Dom, i am quite sure, i am very grateful to him indeed that he helped me... and i think so is my Husband... though He would not admit to that and i do not press the point obviously. As for your last paragraph: As for your husband's view that it should always be hidden. Obviously, he figures that ignorance is bliss. Yes He does, He sees it as unnecessary hurt to tell about adultery unless you mean to break up anyway... so anybody thinking of confessing should make sure they can hack the split, if not they should sit on it. It contradicts the idea that he would be completely unforgiving should he find out though. How is that? i tend to disagree with you... He is a very proud man, i do not think He would care to 'keep' me should i make such a mistake... and sure enough right now as we are doing good, i agree with Him, because it would be unforgivable if i would simply fuck about for the sake of it. ... So i have put all my lovers on hold till we reach another rough patch, but thats me; always considerate... And typically, the partner being cheated on always finds out. Do they? He used to work at sea, He would be gone for 6 weeks at the time... i have absolutely no way of knowing that He has always been faithful to me, i simply believe He has... and i think that is pretty blissful.

breatheasone -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/7/2010 1:24:09 PM)
~~FR~~ i guess i always knew it would happen, when there would be a day, when people would actually say with a straight face...."There is no right, or wrong in cheating", or the notion "I'll be faithful until you act how i don't like" WOW!! Now THERES some commitment eh?

ranja -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/7/2010 1:39:38 PM)
Well Candy, you and LadyPact have it all sorted; nice and straight above board... unfortunately we are not all blessed with such wonderful understanding husbands you see... and when you happen to love the man but he behaves like a total basterd and ignores you for months and months on end for years and years... and then you bump into this handsome fire man while your cunt is near enough ablaze... well.... shoot me, i'm weak... is it all my fault though? ... unfortunately i never actually bumped into this handsome fireman... but i could have done... maybe i was not faithful, i was just lucky...

breatheasone -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/7/2010 3:04:19 PM)
Ranja, what exactly do i have figured out? That cheating is wrong? To be honest, i didn't know that was a difficult thing to figure. And what does being horny "cunt is near enough ablaze" Have to do with whether its right, or wrong to cheat? All relationships have problems. To me, using those problems as an excuse to justify cheating is wrong.

agirl -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/7/2010 3:06:13 PM)
I don't actually care whether it's right or wrong ........far too many variables in personal situations and it never made anything better being right when the playing ground is uneven. agirl

agirl -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/7/2010 3:10:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: breatheasone Ranja, what exactly do i have figured out? That cheating is wrong? To be honest, i didn't know that was a difficult thing to figure. And what does being horny "cunt is near enough ablaze" Have to do with whether its right, or wrong to cheat? All relationships have problems. To me, using those problems as an excuse to justify cheating is wrong. There's a difference between justifying and giving reasons. agirl

breatheasone -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/7/2010 3:11:38 PM)
Fair enough, if you don't care, you don't care. Perhaps if more people were up front about their views on fidelity it would eliminate a lot of the problems. For instance, if people told one another up front how they view fidelity, then BOTH parties would be on the same page from the start.

breatheasone -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/7/2010 3:13:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl There's a difference between justifying and giving reasons. agirl Can you explain what you mean?

agirl -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/7/2010 3:20:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: breatheasone Fair enough, if you don't care, you don't care. Perhaps if more people were up front about their views on fidelity it would eliminate a lot of the problems. For instance, if people told one another up front how they view fidelity, then BOTH parties would be on the same page from the start. My views on it are pretty clear. Most people don't have much of a view beyond * I don't want to be cheated on.......... but that doesn't automatically transfer to them behaving in a way that doesn't totally alienate their partner, either. Just because I think the way I do doesn't make it more likely that I'll be cheated on*, or that I'll cheat. agirl

breatheasone -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/7/2010 3:27:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl quote: ORIGINAL: breatheasone Fair enough, if you don't care, you don't care. Perhaps if more people were up front about their views on fidelity it would eliminate a lot of the problems. For instance, if people told one another up front how they view fidelity, then BOTH parties would be on the same page from the start. My views on it are pretty clear. Most people don't have much of a view beyond * I don't want to be cheated on.......... but that doesn't automatically transfer to them behaving in a way that doesn't totally alienate their partner, either. Just because I think the way I do doesn't make it more likely that I'll be cheated on*, or that I'll cheat. agirl i guess what i'm REALLY missing here is...... Why is it ok to cheat? If a persons partner is treating them that badly, end the relationship. Why lie, sneak, and stuff like that? How is that ok? Since when do two wrongs make a right? Why is staying, and cheating, lying, sneaking, ok?

LadyPact -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/7/2010 4:07:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ranja Well Candy, you and LadyPact have it all sorted; nice and straight above board... unfortunately we are not all blessed with such wonderful understanding husbands you see... and when you happen to love the man but he behaves like a total basterd and ignores you for months and months on end for years and years... and then you bump into this handsome fire man while your cunt is near enough ablaze... well.... shoot me, i'm weak... is it all my fault though? ... unfortunately i never actually bumped into this handsome fireman... but i could have done... maybe i was not faithful, i was just lucky... I have it all sorted for My life. I would have to say that it doesn't necessarily have to do with Me having an understanding husband. It has to do with the standards that I have set for My life and those who are intimately involved in My life. First and foremost, I have to have a good relationship with Myself. It's like any other behavior that do not find acceptable for Me to participate in. My ability to stand behind My word in the agreements that I have with My husband are more important to Me. Even if there were no intimacy or sex in My life, I'm fine with that as long as I have My integrity.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Married People and the Lifestyle (1/7/2010 4:23:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact Even if there were no intimacy or sex in My life, I'm fine with that as long as I have My integrity. [/color] That statement right there LadyPact is really what the whole cheating debate is about though isn't it? Perhaps the discussion should be about integrity and what it means. It seems to me that for far to many, it might as well not even exist.

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