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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 2:40:42 PM   
LadyEllen


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Indeed MH

But I ask myself, what are the alternatives? Proceed as we have done for decades now, steadily pissing off more and more people who feel they have nothing to lose in what are pathetic attempts at resistance all in all but which greatly affect us, come to some negotiated diplomatic and more sensible accord or (the only other ultimate outcome) resolve on the extermination of that which is a pest to our agenda?

E

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 2:49:13 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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I don't know what sort of meaningful agreement could be reached with fundamentalist religious lunatics. They're insane. That's their nature. that's who and what they are. It doesn't matter what concessions we grant them, a month later they're going to find some other reason to declare that we're an abomination in the eyes of god, and we need to be wiped from the face of the earth. And kaboom, there goes another airliner. We could sell Israel down the river tomorrow, and next year they'll find something else to be infuriated about. These people will be a plague on the human race for as long as there are humans remaining for them to be offended by.

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 2:52:56 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

I don't know what sort of meaningful agreement could be reached with fundamentalist religious lunatics. They're insane. That's their nature. that's who and what they are. It doesn't matter what concessions we grant them, a month later they're going to find some other reason to declare that we're an abomination in the eyes of god, and we need to be wiped from the face of the earth. And kaboom, there goes another airliner. We could sell Israel down the river tomorrow, and next year they'll find something else to be infuriated about. These people will be a plague on the human race for as long as there are humans remaining for them to be offended by.

I disagree. Israel is their main beef with you (the Afghanis and Iranians aside, of course), and they hate Israel a lot more than they've ever hated or likely to hate America.

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 2:54:21 PM   
LadyEllen


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Agreed Panda.

What we need to do is isolate the nutters who cant be redeemed and destroy them. But in doing that we do ourselves no favours whatever in adding to their numbers by persisting pig headedly with current policies.

E

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 4:25:09 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Security has not been improved one iota since Lockerbie, despite all the rules and regulations imposed since and escalated enormously in the last few years.


A few points here. Firstly when did you last fly to the US from the UK ? I ask this since I have flown several times and the level of security is frustrating in the extreme. I am not complaining since it needs to be done.

Secondly, how many bombs have made their way onto aircraft at a UK airport since Lockerbie ( even the that was a tranfer flight ) I really cant recall one case, certainly not one where anything happened.

Thirdly, why should immigrants who come here for a better life not do a decent job. What you deride as low pay cant be any worse than millions of other workers in the UK, British nationals or not. Even then financial immigrants are way better off than by being back home.

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 4:28:57 PM   
LadyEllen


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I see. So "staffing on the cheap with immigrant labour" is an attack on immigrants, rather than an attack on "staffing on the cheap"?

E
(employer of 4 immigrants, at salary rates identical to their British fellow workers)

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 4:36:37 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

You can make America safe by spending money on security and not war.



No you cant, not without massive disruption to daily life. We learnt that here in the UK with the IRA bombings in London and elsewhere. You just have to grit your teeth and get on with it, or the other guy wins.

Everytime you figure out a way to stop one kind of attack, at some point they figure out a new one. You make the city centres safe, they attack the suburbs, the truth is you cant protect from a determined adversary 100%. The only thing that has had any real joy is dialogue.

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 4:39:11 PM   
Moonhead


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I'm not sure that the IRA is a fair comparison in this case: at least they phoned in warnings so that areas could be cleared (apart from that loathsome thing in County Armagh).

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 4:41:38 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I see. So "staffing on the cheap with immigrant labour" is an attack on immigrants, rather than an attack on "staffing on the cheap"?

E
(employer of 4 immigrants, at salary rates identical to their British fellow workers)


Read what I wrote, not what you wish to see. I shall restate it for you to help you out. Why should immigrants do a bad job, regardless of the wages ? Do they not have the integrity for this ?


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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 4:43:56 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I'm not sure that the IRA is a fair comparison in this case: at least they phoned in warnings so that areas could be cleared (apart from that loathsome thing in County Armagh).


Initially yes, but the warnings became vague and without much time to act. My point was/is that even with all the security we threw at it, it still continued until the truce was declared.

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 4:49:02 PM   
LadyEllen


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OK. It is that low pay and boring repetitive tasks attract only those desperate for work (ie not Brits). It is that low pay and boring repetitive tasks do not motivate anyone to do a job with great interest. It is that a lack of great interest and motivation to do the job well in this particular field is a security nightmare.

The problem ultimately is that we all want to fly for next to nothing and one of the few areas where costs can be cut is in staff for checking and sorting baggage. Indeed, the west shall eat itself.

E

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 4:53:58 PM   
mnottertail


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I'm sorry. Did we sort out the French thing before you Brits got off topic here?


AmericanPoster

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 4:55:49 PM   
kittinSol


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Oui. Tout va pour le mieux dans le meilleur des mondes possible.

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 4:59:11 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I'm sorry. Did we sort out the French thing before you Brits got off topic here?


AmericanPoster


Are we talking Airline security in general, or just one in paricular mon general ? 

Edited to add that should read particular with T, not the Indian or Chinese type either.

< Message edited by Politesub53 -- 12/29/2009 5:00:42 PM >

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 5:03:20 PM   
mnottertail


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LOL. American sense of humor. I was (amazed would not be the right word, bemused maybe, no...out and out amused to learn of the Swedish invasion of Russia and the French defenses of yore) and I thought, these vapid little clowns sit there all day and stare at peoples underwear and xray machines and have no idea of the history and tradition behind their vocations......so american to argue that way.....

Or am I confusing threads?

Talleyrand

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 5:12:16 PM   
Politesub53


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American sense of humour.....I always knew there was one Ron....lol

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 5:17:48 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
OK. It is that low pay and boring repetitive tasks attract only those desperate for work (ie not Brits). It is that low pay and boring repetitive tasks do not motivate anyone to do a job with great interest. It is that a lack of great interest and motivation to do the job well in this particular field is a security nightmare.

The problem ultimately is that we all want to fly for next to nothing and one of the few areas where costs can be cut is in staff for checking and sorting baggage. Indeed, the west shall eat itself.

E

When we were traveling in the UK we saw and chatted with a number of people from a variety of backgrounds. When the subject of the economy and employment came up one point was made that, to me, pointed to something that hasn't yet been discussed on the issue of low pay.

Some of the young people were saying that they can not work, not go to school, and still be given a stipend by the government. Granted, I don't think it was a large amount or even one many people contributing to this discussion would deem sufficient to live on; however pooling their money in groups and hanging out was a common practice. They made a good argument for not working.

They said that getting the stipend and not working, just hanging around drinking and whatever the under 25 year olds do on the streets during the day was much preferable to working at a job for what amounted to a very little difference in their personal bottom line. Working, you pay taxes - not working you get other people's taxes. Working, you save up for vacation time off, not an issue on the public dole.

Putting it in US terms getting $500 per month from the government and not working was preferable to earning $750 per month subject to a 'boss' and 'responsibilities'. Short term thinking at best; but could this be behind the fact that an immigrant would see the work and $750 preferable to any amount given as an entitlement?

What does an unemployed school drop out get as a stipend from the UK, how long does it last, and what, of any, requirements are placed upon them to seek employment? Also aren't there additional housing benefits given to the unemployed which would be lost if they took on a job? Sometimes the pragmatic decision to not work makes sense as a result of the good intending entitlement programs.

A similar thing occurs in the US where it's counter productive to find a job because most of the child assistance, housing, and health benefits get cut off or reduced the day you start working. Pragmatically it doesn't make much sense for a single mother to take on a minimum wage job in California. What they would lose in assistance is much more than can make; and that is before they factor in the additional cost of getting to their job. What little mass transit exists in California isn't convenient, reliable, or organized. I think some benefits remain, but not enough to incentive the individual. It would make more sense to allocate more in subsidiaries to those employed making employment desirable, but that 'good intent' projection consideration has never made it into the thought process.

I don't believe that most people unemployed are lazy. I think they are not as dumb as the government, who set up these counter-productive assistance programs, believes them to be.

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 5:29:18 PM   
LadyEllen


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We have the same here Mercnbeth - its called the benefits trap; as long as youre not single and healthy its better to be on benefits than work most jobs.

And for the benefit of those who think I hate immigrants, thank goodness theyre here, or the place would fall apart. Though they too can get benefits, they usually come with a healthy work ethic that obliges them to find a job. But then that just means that some employers can offer minimum wage and get plenty of applicants, so it doesnt really help long term.

E

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 6:50:01 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

You can make America safe by spending money on security and not war.



No you cant, not without massive disruption to daily life. We learnt that here in the UK with the IRA bombings in London and elsewhere. You just have to grit your teeth and get on with it, or the other guy wins.

Everytime you figure out a way to stop one kind of attack, at some point they figure out a new one. You make the city centres safe, they attack the suburbs, the truth is you cant protect from a determined adversary 100%. The only thing that has had any real joy is dialogue.


Two points, Polite.

Isn't it true that the IRA was advantaged by being Johnny on the spot so to speak whereas Al Q has the daunting (lol) task of getting to our shores? At least they have a distance to travel.

Secondly, what do you suppose the reaction will be in the US and by airline travelers if and when one of these "incompetent" jihadists succeed in blowing a hole in the side of a plane and 250 passengers are lost?

It will not be pretty. Any thoughts anyone?

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 6:57:38 PM   
LadyEllen


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But Vincent, we in the UK have plenty of recruiting resource for these nutjobs on our soil already, and I suspect its similar all over.

E

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