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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 11:59:49 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Very true. Napolean had the excuse that he was the first person to invade Russia during winter as well. Hitler couldn't fall back on that story when he got his army demolished the same way, could he?


Actually (and I admit that I didn't know this until recently - thanks to a documentary on the History Channel) the Swedes invaded in 1709. Or was it 1708? Oh well, the point is that Napolean wasn't the first.

The Swedes suffered the same fate as all later invaders - they kept getting drawn in until winter fell and then...

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 12:27:28 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Barbarossa was launched in 1941 as I recall, albeit a few weeks late - which proved very important indeed as it meant the Germans and their friends (Italians, Hungarians, Romanians) didnt make Moscow before winter closed in, as the plan had required.

E


Mid-June, actually. June 20 or 22, if I recall correctly. It was a month later than planned, and that month is probably what cost them victory. Hitler had meticulously studied Napoleon's invasion of Russia in order to avoid making the same mistakes, but wound up making the most important one all over again. Right down to the date, in fact. Napoleon launched his own invasion of Russia in the last week of June - 23 or 24, I believe.

Of course, the fundamental difference was that Napoleon never intended to fight his way all the way to Moscow in the first place - he expected to meet and destroy the Russian army early in the campaign. The Russians wouldn't cooperate, however, realizing they had no chance of winning that battle. So they fell back, forcing Napoleon to extend his supply lines much longer than he'd expected would be necessary. He couldn't sustain a contested advance all the way to Moscow, and by the time he got there he had less than a quarter of his army remaining.

But still, the lesson was there for Hitler to have learned. Unfortunately for him, the Soviets were the ones who learned it, not him.



I have read that Napoleon's return trip was even worse, the weather was so bad (Little Ice Age) the men were dropping and freezing in place. Napoleon of course had a new SUV with heaters. (or maybe Hooters) ~laughing~


The Russians' legendary military genius, "General Winter." Actually, a lot of meteorological records indicate that the winter of 1812-1813 was relatively mild, by Russian standards, but for troops who were already starving, sick, physically exhausted, and completely demoralized, it was severe enough. Napoleon invaded with anywhere between 450,000 and 600,000 soldiers, and fewer than 100,000 of them ever saw Moscow. Of those, anywhere from 10,000 to 20,000 ever saw home again. Between the weather, the famine, and the marauding Cossacks wreaking vengeance every step of the way, it was a tough walk home.


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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 12:29:06 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		To say nothing of the supply lines catastrophe, Napoleon was really shakey on that end of the military planning

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 12:43:44 PM   
Jeffff


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Marshall Ney

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 12:46:06 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Very true. Napolean had the excuse that he was the first person to invade Russia during winter as well. Hitler couldn't fall back on that story when he got his army demolished the same way, could he?


Actually (and I admit that I didn't know this until recently - thanks to a documentary on the History Channel) the Swedes invaded in 1709. Or was it 1708? Oh well, the point is that Napolean wasn't the first.

The Swedes suffered the same fate as all later invaders - they kept getting drawn in until winter fell and then...

My bad, Marc. I'd not heard about that one either.

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 12:46:32 PM   
Jeffff


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Napoleon Bonaparte

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 12:47:49 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Barbarossa was launched in 1941 as I recall, albeit a few weeks late - which proved very important indeed as it meant the Germans and their friends (Italians, Hungarians, Romanians) didnt make Moscow before winter closed in, as the plan had required.

E

Didn't the Romanians change sides partway through, as the Italians did?

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 12:59:49 PM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Popeye: Maybe you should have them all wear yellow stars...yanno to make it easier for profiling?



Lucy, that's a very bad analogy, the Jews wearn't trying to kill anyone.
You know, if I were looking to catch Irish Republican Army guys I'd be looking for white guys with names like "Kevin", "Sean", and "Brian."
Not black guys with names like "Jamal", "Kareem", or "Leroy."
Common sense.

At the age of seven
I learned that not every irish catholic was a murdering bastard
I learned that not every german was a nazi
I learned that not every jew was a christ killer and dirty etc etc
I learned that not every hindi smelt
I llearned that not every jamaican was gonna rape me
I learned that not every japanese person deserved to die in hiroshima
I learned that not all americans were loud mouth spivs who couldnt win a war
I learned that not all canadians were called bruce and were lumberjacks
I learned that not all brits thought like me
I learned not all the welsh  shag sheep and wear smocks
I found out at age seven that fear, ignorance, arrogance, righteous anger,  greed and hate were responsible,
not colours or creeds, political parties,
I learned that you cant identify terrorists by a colour or a creed and being scared of every irish person was gonna make me crazy
This didnt mean to turn into a bleeding heart liberal thing...so if you have to take the piss... go ahead I wont be commenting on it



< Message edited by Lucylastic -- 12/29/2009 1:02:50 PM >

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 1:17:49 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Romania was neutral till 1940 when it joined the axis. A coup d'etat took place in late summer 1944 when it tried to join the United Nations, which only happened a bit later when the Soviets had finished exacting a bit of revenge. Its forces then took on a lot of the fighting in central Europe from autumn 1944 to the end of the war.

E

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 1:23:04 PM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Popeye: Maybe you should have them all wear yellow stars...yanno to make it easier for profiling?



Lucy, that's a very bad analogy, the Jews wearn't trying to kill anyone.
You know, if I were looking to catch Irish Republican Army guys I'd be looking for white guys with names like "Kevin", "Sean", and "Brian."
Not black guys with names like "Jamal", "Kareem", or "Leroy."
Common sense.

At the age of seven
I learned that not every irish catholic was a murdering bastard
I learned that not every german was a nazi
I learned that not every jew was a christ killer and dirty etc etc
I learned that not every hindi smelt
I llearned that not every jamaican was gonna rape me
I learned that not every japanese person deserved to die in hiroshima
I learned that not all americans were loud mouth spivs who couldnt win a war
I learned that not all canadians were called bruce and were lumberjacks
I learned that not all brits thought like me
I learned not all the welsh  shag sheep and wear smocks
I found out at age seven that fear, ignorance, arrogance, righteous anger,  greed and hate were responsible,
not colours or creeds, political parties,
I learned that you cant identify terrorists by a colour or a creed and being scared of every irish person was gonna make me crazy
This didnt mean to turn into a bleeding heart liberal thing...so if you have to take the piss... go ahead I wont be commenting on it




Lucy, well good for you.

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 1:23:51 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Lucy, that's a very bad analogy, the Jews wearn't trying to kill anyone.
You know, if I were looking to catch Irish Republican Army guys I'd be looking for white guys with names like "Kevin", "Sean", and "Brian."
Not black guys with names like "Jamal", "Kareem", or "Leroy."
Common sense.





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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 1:37:41 PM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
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quote:


Nigeria supplies five percent of our oil.


Vincent, that may be true but that doesn't mean just because we buy their oil we have to be "friends" with them.

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 1:44:58 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Indeed Popeye, but its good to be friends with the few at the top who get the biggest cut of the oil revenues - after all, who are they going to buy from when it comes to expensive military weaponry, luxury goods and security products? 

Its great; you buy their oil, they then use the money to buy your products! Its a win-win. At least until military manufacturing et al is outsourced under a global trade deal.

E

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 1:46:08 PM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Indeed Popeye, but its good to be friends with the few at the top who get the biggest cut of the oil revenues - after all, who are they going to buy from when it comes to expensive military weaponry, luxury goods and security products? 

Its great; you buy their oil, they then use the money to buy your products! Its a win-win. At least until military manufacturing et al is outsourced under a global trade deal.

E



Lady E, China.

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 1:46:12 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Very true. Napolean had the excuse that he was the first person to invade Russia during winter as well. Hitler couldn't fall back on that story when he got his army demolished the same way, could he?


Actually (and I admit that I didn't know this until recently - thanks to a documentary on the History Channel) the Swedes invaded in 1709. Or was it 1708? Oh well, the point is that Napolean wasn't the first.

The Swedes suffered the same fate as all later invaders - they kept getting drawn in until winter fell and then...

My bad, Marc. I'd not heard about that one either.


Few people have. Napoleon got all the press, because he lost a half a million men, and King Charles lost about 15,000. A minor border skirmish in comparison, but still - the surprising thing is that Napoleon didn't learn more from that historical incident. If the Swedes can't fight in Russia in the wintertime, nobody can.

And Marc's right; the war itself (The Great Northern War) lasted from 1700 until around 1720, but the ill-advised invasion was in the winter of 1708-1709. Peter the Great was prepared to negotiate a truce, but Sweden went for broke and invaded Russia, and that was the beginning of the end for Sweden as a major regional power and the moment in which Russia became a major European power. The war sputtered along for another 10 or 12 years, but the winter campaign of 1708-09 is what broke Sweden's back.


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Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 1:47:53 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Romania was neutral till 1940 when it joined the axis. A coup d'etat took place in late summer 1944 when it tried to join the United Nations, which only happened a bit later when the Soviets had finished exacting a bit of revenge. Its forces then took on a lot of the fighting in central Europe from autumn 1944 to the end of the war.

E

Thank you.

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 2:19:53 PM   
Brain


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Status: offline 		My understanding is they are now saying the system worked in terms of after the guy was caught the system worked by people being notified and warned to be on alert. Of course that's not good enough.

There's no doubt in my mind the money spent on the wars are inadequate in the sense that we' re not getting value for money spent. It would have been a much better idea to secure airports, railroads, nuclear facilities, sporting events, hospitals, and schools. It would have been much better to spend those war dollars securing all these locations as well as the water supply and electrical and chemical plants and so forth.

I think the right strategy is to gather intelligence in Iraq and Afghanistan and Pakistan and Yemen or other hot spots and be reluctant to send the troops over there except as a last resort.
I think another 30,000 troops are over there for political reasons.

I don't feel it's safe to fly right now, maybe if they start doing full body scans as well as have those air marshals on all flights. I don't think it would make flying that much more expensive if they spent some money to make it safer. And I don't think people would mind paying a little more to ensure their safety.

You can make America safe by spending money on security and not war. Spend the money on security like New York City has done to have adequate resources to guard against threats. They should spend money on bodies like police officers and on technology.

I think Obama is at fault for the following: Pres. Obama has sent too many troops overseas and there are not enough troops at home now to defend the country. It's unlikely, but if a foreign country attacks the United States there are not enough troops at home to protect Americans adequately.

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 2:24:40 PM   
Moonhead


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Joined: 9/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain
There's no doubt in my mind the money spent on the wars are inadequate in the sense that we' re not getting value for money spent. It would have been a much better idea to secure airports, railroads, nuclear facilities, sporting events, hospitals, and schools. It would have been much better to spend those war dollars securing all these locations as well as the water supply and electrical and chemical plants and so forth.

On that level, you were lucky in 2001. If the idiots in question had thought to crash a few planes into nuclear plants, there'd likely have been a much bigger death toll by now.

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 2:30:22 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Alternatively Brain, all that money could be saved (well, spend on reducing the borrowings), and security improved by not pissing off Muslims and trampling all over what is dear to them. Getting Israel under control would go a long way towards that.

E

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RE: The Airline Security System Works; It Really Does! - 12/29/2009 2:35:31 PM   
Moonhead


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Joined: 9/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Alternatively Brain, all that money could be saved (well, spend on reducing the borrowings), and security improved by not pissing off Muslims and trampling all over what is dear to them. Getting Israel under control would go a long way towards that.

E

Like that's going to happen.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 100
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