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RE: bipolar man executed in China - 12/29/2009 10:43:43 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Whereas I see the phenomenon from the point of view of evolution biology: if crime exists, there must be some benefit for the gene pool and the population in which it manifests, otherwise it would be selected against by natural (and sexual) selection. (I also will applaud anyone who kills such destructive individuals, though.)

So, whatever the difference in their brain, I suspect that it is proper for them.

Couldn't it be something as simple as an instinctive urge to do whatever it takes to survive (and thus preserve the DNA) no matter what the cost? Think of it this way.... what is crime? Most of it comes down to doing whatever it takes to get as much money as possible, with no regard for the customs of your social group. Right? If you have a group of 20 individuals, a group in which it is generally accepted that nobody steals anyone else's banana, and 19 of those individuals are genetically predispositioned to follow the rules, the 20th individual - the one who feels no reluctance to eat whatever banana he can get his hands on - may have a better chance of survival than the other 19 when food is hard to find. Which would explain why women, especially young women, are so often and so inexplicably attracted to "bad boys" - "Hmmm... if i share DNA with that guy, no matter what happens he's going to do whatever it takes to make sure our kids always have plenty of bananas. My kids will have a better chance of survival if he's our provider."

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Unfortunately, many are susceptible to substance abuse. The most obnoxious ones are the people that smoke. The most dangerous ones are the people that drink. Then there are those addicted to gambling and - undoubtedly the worst of them - those who are addicted to listening to LOUD music.

OK, OK, I'm sorry. I'll turn it down. I didn't think you could hear it all the way over in Belgium, or wherever it is.

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Post #: 61

RE: bipolar man executed in China - 12/29/2009 10:46:49 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Being bipolar did not MAKE him do it.

....true, being bipolar significently reduced his ability to understand the consequences of his actions. It did not make him do it, it just made it difficult for him to know just what it was he was doing.

It is of course a matter of opinion… in my experience bipolar tends to go from one extreme to another...there would of been times where he would have known what he was doing...I do believe he was sick...but still a crook...again like many threads of this kind without all the information all our talk is just speculation.

Butch

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Post #: 62

RE: bipolar man executed in China - 12/29/2009 10:51:55 PM

Aneirin

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In China, they don't just execute for drug crimes, there are many more crimes that result in the same, including I believe financial crimes.

But regarding mental health, as far as the UK is concerned, it is callled care in the community and there has been situations where mentally ill people have committed murder because of their condition. The mental health service is basically falling apart, not enough staff to increasing numbers of patients, something which seems to increase every time the DSM is revised. Nearly every child I hear about now, has some form of disorder, which basically can be used to explain why teaching standards are pants. It begs the question, if the psychoanalysers have their way, everyone will be labelled with a disorder.

If this poor chap had Bipolar 1, par for the course in the UK is load them up with meds and send them on their way, there just isnt the support available, but hey, the drugs companies do well out of it all.

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

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Post #: 63

RE: bipolar man executed in China - 12/29/2009 10:57:16 PM

kdsub

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Please don't think I am defending the Chinese judicial system...I am defending not all but the vast majority of the mentally ill from being accused of being more likely of being criminals because of their illness then me or you sane or not.

Perhaps me I just don’t believe it.

Butch

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Post #: 64

RE: bipolar man executed in China - 12/29/2009 10:59:55 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I am going by the information provided by the OP... Nothing was mentioned as to if he was evaluated or not...You may have information about the inside workings of the Chinese judicial system I don't have...Or have more information on the story I have not seen. Love for you to provide a link where the Chinese said they did not evaluate him for mental illness.

quote:

Amid an angry exchange of words between London and Beijing, the British prime minister said in a statement: "I condemn the execution of Akmal Shaikh in the strongest terms and am appalled and disappointed that our persistent requests for clemency have not been granted. I am particularly concerned that no mental health assessment was undertaken..."

The Chinese embassy in London said Shaikh, 53, from Kentish Town, north London, had "no previous medical record" of mental illness."Out of humanitarian consideration visas were granted to the two cousins of Mr Shaikh on Boxing Day and they were given access to meeting Mr Shaikh in China. As for his possible mental illness which has been much talked about, there apparently has been no previous medical record."

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Yes confusion is common with bipolar…there is an inability to function properly...but he seemed to have no trouble functioning smuggling drugs. For to say he was duped is again outside of known facts…you should not speak in absolutes either.

I didn't.

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Post #: 65

RE: bipolar man executed in China - 12/29/2009 11:01:48 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Please don't think I am defending the Chinese judicial system...I am defending not all but the vast majority of the mentally ill from being accused of being more likely of being criminals because of their illness then me or you sane or not.

Who in the world said that? Just what thread are you reading, anyway?

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Post #: 66

RE: bipolar man executed in China - 12/29/2009 11:25:25 PM

Aneirin

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I look at it this way regards mental health, is if one of the psychoanalysers has come to the conclusion that someone has a disorder, and that diagnosis is agreed upon by other professionals, then the possible consequences of the disorder must be considered. If there is a danger that a person might, when out of their mind, ( this could be not taking the meds, or a trigger), commit a serious crime, then that person should be supervised, at least until a point where some stability is attained, and then make regular check ups on mind state. It is just no good diagnosing someone with a mental illness and then doing little about it, for example, say a person receives the diagnosis that they are schizophrenic, they hear voices in their head, and there is a strong possibility that they could be violent, whilst responding to the head voices, it is irresponsible to release such a person into the community, it is almost saying .Yeah, we know someone, based upon what they have said in councilling sessions might kill someone, but we will let them out into society anyway, and just keep our fingers crossed they keep taking the meds.

Not so long ago, we had mental hospitals in this country, now, they are largely gone, as care in the community is the care regime now, this all falls down because there are very few if any checks made upon a persons mind state and that they are taking the meds. Now, I have a pal, who has been diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic, he used to when he felt particularly stressed, admit himself into the mental wing of the city hospital, now, that is ended, there is not enough beds to go around, he can't get the treatment when he feels he needs it. He has a joke he tells people, the reason why there are anti ram raid barriers in front of the mental wing, it is because when he was there a few years ago, someone tried to admit themselves, but were turned away,the doors were even locked behind him, he came back later and driven his car through the front of the building. Most people try to escape those places, it is something different when people try to ram raid their way in. My pal, he has found another way to ease his stresses now, us, myself and my pals and sessions of deep conversations and reasoning.

This chap that was executed having received a diagnosis,where he had extremes of mood, should have been watched, his whereabouts known. The Chinese cannot be blamed, they do not recognise mental health as a defence, so to me, if blame is to be applied, I will put it on a poor mental health system in this country.

And yes, the hypothesis is it is reckoned the majority of inmates in prison in the UK, could well have mental health issues, as may also repeat offence criminals, the so called habitual criminal. Maybe it is, the prisons have now become the new mental health hospitals, or pens, but if that comes to be, that is basically saying mental health sufferers who are not in prison, could well be potential criminals.

If we are to have mental health professionals with the ability to diagnose and label, we must have in place infrastructure to care for those so labelled, and the numbers are increasing, as new disorders are discovered, which does wonderful things for a mental health professional's career, but sod all for the individual and society. Every disorder found or created means a heavier burden on society, if this thing runs away and more and more people get labelled, just look at the possible consequences, tighter governmental control of citizens ? Maybe better to get rid of the psychoanalyst stuff and treat everyone for their actions, do something wrong, get punished, life is cruel.

< Message edited by Aneirin -- 12/29/2009 11:35:47 PM >

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

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Post #: 67

RE: bipolar man executed in China - 12/29/2009 11:36:29 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
Nearly every child I hear about now, has some form of disorder

My sister has a firm opinion about that: those parents do not know how to raise their children, but instead of blaming and thereby (self)offending the parents the convenient way out is to diagnose the child with having a disorder.

I agree for about 96 per cent with her judgment. (I think that the other four per cent may be true inherited disorders - but that those are usually proper for the afflicted child.)

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 68

RE: bipolar man executed in China - 12/29/2009 11:43:58 PM

Justme696

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
Nearly every child I hear about now, has some form of disorder

My sister has a firm opinion about that: those parents do not know how to raise their children, but instead of blaming and thereby (self)offending the parents the convenient way out is to diagnose the child with having a disorder.

I agree for about 96 per cent with her judgment. (I think that the other four per cent may be true inherited disorders - but that those are usually proper for the afflicted child.)

I can see her point. We almost seem to have no healthy kids anymore overhere also.
PArents seem to be to busy to raise them. They don't raise the kids, the playstation does.
And when they kid gets voilent...they invent a desease.

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Post #: 69

RE: bipolar man executed in China - 12/29/2009 11:49:21 PM

Aneirin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
Nearly every child I hear about now, has some form of disorder

My sister has a firm opinion about that: those parents do not know how to raise their children, but instead of blaming and thereby (self)offending the parents the convenient way out is to diagnose the child with having a disorder.

I agree for about 96 per cent with her judgment. (I think that the other four per cent may be true inherited disorders - but that those are usually proper for the afflicted child.)

I also agree with that, but when was it parents were taught to be parents, in the past people just got on with it . I think a lot of blame, especially in the case of the so called attention deficit disorder with kids has at least two reasons; Firstly, since the semiconductor became common place in the home, kids have been bombarded with every latest high tech gadget going, if something does not do for them, they are quickly bored, because they have not learned to do for themselves, we have in essence become very lazy. Secondly, teaching, well in this country at least, teachers are under way too much pressure to perform, I say perform, because now it's all about league tables, the actual teaching is aimed at the whatever 'ority that can learn at the pace the teaching is forced to run at. Those children that are a bit slower in learning, they then come under scrutiny as having something wrong with them, the pressure to perform on young minds can force difficult behaviour. Another reason maybe as it always has been, not every child is the same, we all learn at different rates, it is just that teaching fails to take that into consideration.

In my mind a step forward for the educated world would be for children to be tested at an early age to find out what they are naturally proficient at, and there teach them according to their abilities.

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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Post #: 70

RE: bipolar man executed in China - 12/30/2009 12:05:47 AM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I know quite a few people with bi-polar. They hold upper executive jobs, they are leaders in their work and life. They are just like anyone else. They simply have erratic moodswings and from time to time, severe ups and downs that can take a toll..but in no way does that make them not able to tell right from wrong.

This idea that this guy was mentally challenged just leaves me shaking my head. Sorry...the guy had a job, the man was able to travel all by his lonesome self and he seemed to be thought of pretty highly by others who knew him.

I'm not saying he knew that he was holding drugs or not on him. I don't have the full story. I'm saying that we shouldn't be looking at him as some poor naive animal led to the slaughter.

I'm also not saying he should have been executed. I won't comment on that one way or the other.

Wonder, I agree, I have a cousin with bi-polar and she's highly functional and intelligent and she's an M.D.
Like you said Bi-Polar is simply high and low mood swings that can be very rough at times but those people are not "crazy" or psychopathic.

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Post #: 71

RE: bipolar man executed in China - 12/30/2009 12:22:32 AM

Aneirin

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On a high swing of the mood, bi polar can be dangerous, as can the antiphase, the depths below normal life, the black depression is also a killer. I have two great aunts, both committed suicide, both were bipolar. One dived in front of a bus, the other stuck her head in the gas oven. But bipolar, just like any other disorder, manifests itself in different ways with different people, there is no catch all, not every sufferer displays the full gamut of the DSM criteria, and might even experience more of something and less of something else compared to another sufferer.

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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Post #: 72

RE: bipolar man executed in China - 12/30/2009 12:35:24 AM

susie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

That is not bipolar...and that is what the OP said...that is why I commented...now if he were schizophrenic as you are describing that would be different. But even then how do we know he was not evaluated by the Chinese authorities for a mental disorder?

The OP I admire…especially her humanity but in many, and in this case, she assumes too much without all the proper information….She may very well be right but she could also be wrong as well…She should not be speaking in absolutes in my opinion.

Butch

I think you are the one that is assuming too much. The Chinese authorities did not allow a medical evaluation as proved by the quote below from the charity representing him.

"China's refusal to even allow a proper medical evaluation is simply disgusting," said Reprieve's director Clive Stafford Smith.hinese authorities did not allow an evalutation as this quote from the charity representing him proves.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 73

RE: bipolar man executed in China - 12/30/2009 4:49:25 AM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Please don't think I am defending the Chinese judicial system...I am defending not all but the vast majority of the mentally ill from being accused of being more likely of being criminals because of their illness then me or you sane or not.

Who in the world said that? Just what thread are you reading, anyway?

I am reading what the OP said...what thread are you reading...She is saying Bipolar ...being mentally ill... is a reasons someone should not be convicted of a crime because they are not responsible for their actions over a period of years...To me that is saying because they are mentally ill they are more likely to be a crook. I don't believe that to be true. All that counts is did he get a fair trial...or does the penalty match the crime...not if he were bipolar.

Now in our system he could have been evaluated for competency but do you really think he would not of been convicted of drug charges…bipolar or not.

The only difference is we would not kill him. On top of that we don’t know if he was evaluated or not…no proof has been shown me.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/30/2009 4:50:28 AM >

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Post #: 74

RE: bipolar man executed in China - 12/30/2009 7:04:43 AM

Icarys

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I don't think you know the first thing about what bi-polar is other than what you've recently read on google so you could continue arguing your point.

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Post #: 75

RE: bipolar man executed in China - 12/30/2009 7:22:43 AM

Aneirin

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The trouble is with bipolar, what actions are committed when the manic behaviour is allowed to continue cycling higher and higher is what would normally be considered a wrong becomes a right, there is no question about it, the action is considered right. The duration of manic episodes can be hours, days, perhaps even months. This is the reason where when one says actions committed whilst experiencing a manic episode the affected should know the difference between right and wrong is itself, plain wrong, the normal everyday thought process that most have and understand is doing something very different, illogical to the not affected, but very logical to the affected.

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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Post #: 76

RE: bipolar man executed in China - 12/30/2009 7:31:26 AM

vincentML

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quote:

Couldn't it be something as simple as an instinctive urge to do whatever it takes to survive (and thus preserve the DNA) no matter what the cost? Think of it this way.... what is crime? Most of it comes down to doing whatever it takes to get as much money as possible, with no regard for the customs of your social group. Right? If you have a group of 20 individuals, a group in which it is generally accepted that nobody steals anyone else's banana, and 19 of those individuals are genetically predispositioned to follow the rules, the 20th individual - the one who feels no reluctance to eat whatever banana he can get his hands on - may have a better chance of survival than the other 19 when food is hard to find. Which would explain why women, especially young women, are so often and so inexplicably attracted to "bad boys" - "Hmmm... if i share DNA with that guy, no matter what happens he's going to do whatever it takes to make sure our kids always have plenty of bananas. My kids will have a better chance of survival if he's our provider."

I think your scenario ignores the whole process of socialization. You give too much authority to the power of genes IMO. Nature vs Nurture issue.

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RE: bipolar man executed in China - 12/30/2009 7:35:55 AM

JonnieBoy

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(In response to the OP only)

By modern, world standards, no one has the right to interfere with the Chinese judicial system than the Chinese.

That is the way of things.

They have their system, others have different ones which their peoples cannot see abuses of the rights of man within, but nevertheless occur transparently to others (In this, the USA and the UK can be equally condemned).

The man is dead, right or wrong. Do, or do not pay your respects accordingly folks.

Pirate

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Post #: 78

RE: bipolar man executed in China - 12/30/2009 7:47:55 AM

vincentML

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quote:

Now in our system he could have been evaluated for competency but do you really think he would not of been convicted of drug charges…bipolar or not.

Would it be a diversion to say that Execution by the State for any crime should be condemned as barbaric? In the US we have had more than 150 "convicted murders" set free through the efforts of the "Innocence Poject" which pursues examination of DNA evidence if any has been stored at the time of the crime. For me the issue is much larger than if the executed had or did not have bipolar disorder. Execution by the State is IMO a relic and inhumane. There is ample evidence that Justice is deaf, blind, and prejudice. Many miscarriages occur that cannot be corrected after execution. Oh shit, sorry about that, chappy.

Off for some dental surgery. Interesting topic but have to go quiet for now. Back later, y'all.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 12/30/2009 7:54:11 AM >

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Post #: 79

RE: bipolar man executed in China - 12/30/2009 7:50:04 AM

LadyEllen

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I dont believe anyone is arguing that a mental disorder makes anyone a criminal and nor that it indicates a propensity towards crime. That in a way is the point.

He committed a crime, there is no argument with that. Such a crime cannot go unanswered.

The argument is as to his state of mind in committing the crime and whether at the material time he understood what he was doing. The evidence available indicates that he had lost touch with reality by some margin and thereby cannot be said to have acted rationally with the intent to commit the crime as someone unaffected by such a condition might.

It is vital to understand that untreated bipolar is nothing like we might imagine, if we have not come across it before. It is not being happy and unhappy as we might understand it and which, if it were, would in no way support a valid defence. It is a condition which detaches the sufferer from reality in such a way that he is a danger to himself, and (rarely) to others, causing him to undertake conduct which it is plain to see is not normal.

I personally believe that drug smugglers being executed for their crime in China is the business of the Chinese, just as the heavy sentences elsewhere in that part of the world for such offences are the business of the nations using them. What I feel is absolutely wrong however is to hold someone to the standards of a sane, rational person who falls so clearly short of that standard; such a response is that of an insane bureaucracy not that of a considered justice system.

Sentence him to a long term by all means, and provide him with treatment. Otherwise one is effectively saying that one has executed him as much for his disorder as for the crime.

E

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