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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 1/3/2010 4:16:57 AM   
Lucienne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88
Bullshit and SexyRed called you out on it. . Love that girl.


It would be bullshit to say that all sales people are unethical.  But it wouldn't be to say it about you, given what you've admitted to here.



Is flirting unethical? Smoking pot? Making jokes? It sounds to me like the business she works for has staked out a competitive position and that she complements that by building inter-personal bonds. In terms of the ethics of sales people, I think the most important measure is does the person accurately describe the product or service being sold? That's the metric that matters most to the public in general.

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 1/3/2010 5:00:56 AM   
sexyred1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

Only one involves an overt act. Seems like that should count for something. Developing secondary sex characteristics isn't an "approach." I mean, you can argue the grey area of how a woman dresses, but just knowing that someone is looking at your breasts?

I figured someone would try and make that distinction. The wearing of clothes is a factor..Lets not diminish it especially when a female might know full well and even act on the knowledge that her body will help her get something. There is a difference but...if you know someone is looking and buying from you because of it,,you are essentially selling with sex...it's just not the lets go look at some tits at a club approach.When the outcome is the same and you know it will be based on what your doing..overtly or not..don't fool yourself into believing.."My way is better than their way".


Meaningful distinctions normally are predictable. Having breasts is not "doing" something. And when it comes to big knockers, it can be a no-win situation for the woman. What is she supposed to do -- wear a kaftan all the time? Should women bind their breasts to prevent any perceived advantage? Studies show that attractive people have an advantage in sales. Perhaps good looking guys should wear paper bags over their heads?



Thanks, Lucienne, for bring some clarity to that comment.  As to the wearing of clothes....I don't think I should even have to point out that professional women in sales (in my line at least) dress PROFESSIONALLY, not low cut blouses, not skin tight T-shirts, etc.

The comments about selling with sex are silly, knowing someone may be looking at your boobs is just an understanding of human behavior, not to be taken so literally. And in the corporate world if someone feels they can only use sex to sell, well then that person will most likely not have a long and illustrious career.

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 1/3/2010 6:02:27 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol


quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy519

Hi kittin;

Could I trouble you for some examples?



Sure: there's a planet over there called "Gor". Scoop over to the Gorean forum section and do a quick search.

Otherwise, there was a thread a while ago on the subject of breast feeding: it was illuminating, to say the least. Here's a link to it: The ridiculously long breast feeding thread As you can see, the misogyny was positively rampant. It illustrates perfectly how dislike of women stems from abject fear.

There are also quite a few individual posters who are notorious misogynists, but I shan't bother stroking their egos by posting their names here: needless to say, the less I see them, the better I feel .


Kitten,

Having been a female in a living, extant Gorean household as both a Gorean-style-trained slave and as a Free Woman and Free Companion, I can tell you that Gor is NOT synonymous with "mysogynist". Gor is a particular philosophy based on the idea that Gorean males control their world, but, with real-life experience in the community (not just an "online" collar), I can tell you that Gorean males do not -hate- women... neither the slave or the Free Woman.

Misogyny is the hatred and debasing of women, and most Gorean men certainly do not qualify in that category.

OTOH, there certainly -were- quite a few discouraging examples of gross misogyny in that breastfeeding thread.

Dame Calla


< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 1/3/2010 6:03:37 AM >

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 1/3/2010 8:25:33 AM   
Icarys


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quote:

Meaningful distinctions normally are predictable. Having breasts is not "doing" something. And when it comes to big knockers, it can be a no-win situation for the woman. What is she supposed to do -- wear a kaftan all the time? Should women bind their breasts to prevent any perceived advantage? Studies show that attractive people have an advantage in sales. Perhaps good looking guys should wear paper bags over their heads?


Of course these things are true in and of themselves. It's the fact that she eluded to that one was fair game while the other wasn't all the while agreeing that her tits were helping her sell. Now the logic is plain as day to me but maybe not to others who would choose to make lite of it or refuse to see it.

I think professional women should dress the part..a caftan may be sexy but it's not required

< Message edited by Icarys -- 1/3/2010 8:51:23 AM >

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 1/3/2010 8:27:41 AM   
Icarys


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quote:

The comments about selling with sex are silly, knowing someone may be looking at your boobs is just an understanding of human behavior, not to be taken so literally. And in the corporate world if someone feels they can only use sex to sell, well then that person will most likely not have a long and illustrious career.


I have no doubt your a true professional lady and would never cross that line from professionalism to flirting.


_____________________________

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 1/3/2010 8:52:27 AM   
Aynne88


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88
Bullshit and SexyRed called you out on it. . Love that girl.


It would be bullshit to say that all sales people are unethical.  But it wouldn't be to say it about you, given what you've admitted to here.



Is flirting unethical? Smoking pot? Making jokes? It sounds to me like the business she works for has staked out a competitive position and that she complements that by building inter-personal bonds. In terms of the ethics of sales people, I think the most important measure is does the person accurately describe the product or service being sold? That's the metric that matters most to the public in general.



Lucienne thanks. I mean I wish I never even made the occasional off premise pot smoking, I think it's hard for anyone not from here to conceptualize the type of business I am in. It's pretty one of a kind, we sell and market Maine lobster, bait, and related items, as well as trying to sell lobster meat to canadian processors. A lot of our work is outdoors, on working wharves, dealing with some very roughneck offshore fishermen. If I were to come across as Polly Priss they wouldn't give me the time of day, and what psychonaut can't get his judgemental head around is that sure on the docks I am the flirty girl trying to get the guys to sell to me, but when I am at the Seafood Shows in Boston, dealing with huge processors I am the hard nosed business woman in the pin striped suit trying to get them to sign a contract to commit to buying a million pounds annually from us. I am a chameleon, and in this job you have to be whatever the client needs, whether it's the guy in the Grunden's or the company looking to market Maine lobster that does milliions annually. I don't know why he can't seem to get that concept. Ask SexyRed is she acts the same with every client. Of course not, that is why she is successful. You adapt, you anticipate their needs and wants and what type of personality makes them confortable and you become that person.

The issue Psychnaut is can and do I deliver the promised product at the promised price on time and excellent quality? YES. So don't call me unethical. What's unethical is promising bullshit then not producing, which I have never done and that is why I don't just get the most clients, I get the most repeat ones. I am proud of what I do, and with the economy in the tank for everyone *almost* this year, our company had a 23% increase in sales.

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 1/3/2010 9:48:27 AM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline 		It's a shame you didn't make this post sooner, it would have saved a lot of grief. Certainly you have never mentioned being in a pinstriped suit, in fact to memory (which may be faulty) you've only mentioned how you deal with the guys on the dock.

Of  course you will deal with the dock guys differently than those in the corporations, that makes perfect sense.


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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 1/3/2010 11:26:49 AM   
sexyred1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88
The issue Psychnaut is can and do I deliver the promised product at the promised price on time and excellent quality? YES. So don't call me unethical. What's unethical is promising bullshit then not producing...


It always amuses me how few people in this country can actually define ethics in any meaningful sense.



What part of what Aynne is saying are you NOT getting? Apparently you and that other dude have a total hard on for women in sales. Did a female car salesperson sell you a lemon or were you taken in by a woman selling a pyramid scheme?

She is correct in saying that it would be unethical to sell or promise something that does not deliver. I find it interesting that you assume that most men would not be able to say no to a woman in sales simply because they view her as using her sexuality. Intelligent buyers buy the product or service that they need; if they like the person they are buying it from and she is a woman, what bothers you about that?

I think you should give people more credit for their buying decisions and stop making ethical judgements based on your own bad experiences.


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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 1/3/2010 11:37:09 AM   
Lucienne


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Joined: 9/5/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88
The issue Psychnaut is can and do I deliver the promised product at the promised price on time and excellent quality? YES. So don't call me unethical. What's unethical is promising bullshit then not producing...


It always amuses me how few people in this country can actually define ethics in any meaningful sense.



Can we just stipulate that unless explicitly noted otherwise, you approach all topics with a sense of amused superiority? So we can get to the substance a little quicker?

"Promising bullshit and then not delivering" may not be the most elegant formulation of the principle, but it's a decent normative stance on unethical behavior for a sales person. Perhaps you could enlighten us with what you consider the applied ethics of sales to be and in what way she has violated them? Applied ethics constantly requires a balancing of competing interests. It seems to me that starting with the basic activity - selling stuff - and defining the basics of performing this in an ethical fashion - deliver the promised product at the promised price on time and excellent quality - is as good a foundation as any.

Some would argue that the ethical way is to sell as much shit as you can in whatever manner you can get away with as long as it results in profit for the individual or the business, but I don't get the impression that anyone here is arguing that perspective. And I have difficulty believing that you're arguing that concerns about gender equity should be the pre-eminent factor when determining ethical norms. Such concerns certainly guide my behavior and how I treat others, but conducting my life trying to guard against the incidental advantages of my gender seems, well, unproductive and missing the point.

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 1/3/2010 1:53:44 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		That is just getting beyond the sublimely rediculous.

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 1/3/2010 2:03:19 PM   
sexyred1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23

quote:

Though the whole tactic of using sex appeal to move a product does beg the question: Is Annye a saleswoman, or is she a whore who engages in a bait-and-switch con?  I think an argument for the later can be made regarding any woman who attempts to seduce a sale out of a customer.



If you are trying to be amusing, you are failing miserably. LaT is right, this is so beyond ludicrous and you are not scoring any points for intelligence by insulting Aynne or any other woman in sales.

Seduce a sale out of a customer? Give it up dude, you are sounding like a complete jackass.


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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 1/3/2010 2:09:45 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		~FR~

Unethical sales is using deception, not using assets at your disposal. My slave is also my assistant, and I use her beauty and charm to handle certain problems in my business. It is called using what you have, and there is nothing unethical about it. I have also used the strip club approach to get some deals signed, but then again I have also used the great seats at a sporting event, or opera as well. Aynne may not have worded things the best, but I understood what she was saying. Now Psychonaut seems to be stating that if someone uses any difference between the sexes, it is unethical, well there is a study that the female voice is more appealing in telephone sales, so should they use voice distortion to maintain some ridiculous standard of neutrality?

< Message edited by OrionTheWolf -- 1/3/2010 2:12:20 PM >

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 1/3/2010 2:11:32 PM   
sexyred1


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Status: offline 		Thank you, OrionTheWolf  for adding a voice of reason to the discussion.

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 1/3/2010 2:15:50 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

~FR~

Unethical sales is using deception, not using assets at your disposal. My slave is also my assistant, and I use her beauty and charm to handle certain problems in my business. It is called using what you have, and there is nothing unethical about it. I have also used the strip club approach to get some deals signed, but then again I have also used the great seats at a sporting event, or opera as well. Aynne may not have worded things the best, but I understood what she was saying. Now Psychonaut seems to be stating that if someone uses any difference between the sexes, it is unethical, well there is a study that the female voice is more appealing in telephone sales, so should they use voice distortion to maintain some ridiculous standard of neutrality?

Agreed.

I'd like to add..I'm strangely craving lobster right about now.


< Message edited by Icarys -- 1/3/2010 2:17:42 PM >

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 1/3/2010 2:22:50 PM   
kiwisub12


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23



That was an entirely different point I was making, that using sex to sell things to men is unfeminist, as it creates an expectation in men that women exist to be objectified.  While that may be fine in the bedroom, it really doesn't belong in a professional setting.  A woman should be able to advance in her career without having to pander to men's desires.




Am I the only one reading this as saying that it's women fault if men objectify them?


and i had a conversation with a salesman, during which he said he wasn't a people seller, he was an office seller - in other words, he wasn't tall enough or attractive enough to sell in a store, but he did a fabulous job on a phone. So, male or female, if you are tall, slim and attractive you are more likely to be a great salesman. So , I guess the objectification goes more than one way. And this was a man who does most of his business with men. So I guess he was using his clients subconscious/conscious homosexual desires to sell more product. ...... Shame on him!

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 1/3/2010 2:23:06 PM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline 		Read what OrionTheWolf just posted, and that is the counter argument. He said it better than I did. And I did try to explain why it was ludicrous but you don't really want to debate this; you are stuck one particular point. You keep trying to prove that if women use any of their "wiles" to assist in their sales efforts, they are being unethical.

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 1/3/2010 2:26:10 PM   
lusciouslips19


Posts: 9792
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Unethical sales is using deception, not using assets at your disposal. My slave is also my assistant, and I use her beauty and charm to handle certain problems in my business. It is called using what you have, and there is nothing unethical about it.


Again, the average American's ignorance of ethics is highly amusing to me.

quote:

I have also used the strip club approach to get some deals signed, but then again I have also used the great seats at a sporting event, or opera as well. Aynne may not have worded things the best, but I understood what she was saying.


Yeah. Those things you just mentioned? Unethical.

quote:

Now Psychonaut seems to be stating that if someone uses any difference between the sexes, it is unethical,...


That's not what I said at all. That's a very obvious straw man.

quote:

well there is a study that the female voice is more appealing in telephone sales, so should they use voice distortion to maintain some ridiculous standard of neutrality?


Apples and oranges my friend, apples and oranges. When it comes to ethics, intent is king.




Doing a Bait and switch is unethical. Posting a price but not giving it at the register is unethical. Not giving what was payed for and promised is unethical.

Using my personality to get them to buy it from me as opposed to Joe Shmoe, is not unethical. Especially if I give it at a better price.

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 1/3/2010 2:29:08 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23

Again, the average American's ignorance of ethics is highly amusing to me.



Maybe the average person, I agree. The problem here is that you believe your standard is a universal standard of ethics, and it is not.

quote:


That's not what I said at all.  That's a very obvious straw man.


Not meant as a strawman, so maybe you should think about the perception you give with your words, as that means as much as substance. If you were better than the average person at communication, you would know this. Maybe you do know this, and just not wanting to own it. Maybe you do not accept the responsibility the impression your words may give, and if that is correct, then that can be considered unethical as well, using my standard of ethics.

quote:


Apples and oranges my friend, apples and oranges.  When it comes to ethics, intent is king.


Ahhh the intent argument. So what is the difference in intent between a female using a sexy tone on the phone, and being very friendly, or flirtatious in person? The genders do have a different set of social skills that they use (this is a general statement, not a blanket one).

It seems more like a personal issue you have with Aynne than with anything else. If you consider it unethical, great, but your presentation has been that it should be universally unethical. I suppose utilizing human behavior techniques in sales is unethical as well?

< Message edited by OrionTheWolf -- 1/3/2010 2:31:35 PM >

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 1/3/2010 2:37:44 PM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12
Am I the only one reading this as saying that it's women fault if men objectify them?


I hope so, but I have little faith in the reading comprehension of most people, so you might not be alone.


LOL Then you must have little faith in yourself since kiwisub suggests that you are saying that it is a woman's fault if men objectify them. Hilarious.

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 1/3/2010 3:02:33 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline 		Do you think you can debate things without getting too personal? That strikes me as coming from a four year old mentality as well.

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