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RE: What's too far? - 1/10/2010 1:32:34 PM   
LillyoftheVally


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Quite frankly, a man who is searching for someone to cut off his dick with a knife, not simply fantasizing about it, yea, he is wrong. Even if he finds someone willing to fufill his "fantasy" safe to assume he is wrong.


Why?

quote:


Promoting the idea that ALL things are "ok" as long as everyone consents to someone new to the lifestyle is irresponsible.


I don't think so, I have a responsibility to decide what I see as being over the line, I don't have a responsibility to tell anyone else what decisions to make.

quote:


There have been more than enough examples of things that while one might find the fantasy "hot," the reality of the fantasy would not be enjoyable.


Disappointment because something doesn't live up to expectations isnt the same as something being wrong. I helped organise my sixth form ball, I spent a fortune on my dress and looked forward to it for weeks, it was one of the worst nights I have ever had, stuff happened that made it crap it simply wasn't what I thought it would be. I don't regret looking forward to it though.

quote:


Do you honestly think that if someone fantasized about being killed at climax, they should act that out? Can you really justify that with the simple "consent" or say that it would be healthy to act out?


Personally I don't think they should act it out, but I guess the darwin awards are there for a reason, no seriously there are a hell of a lot of things that people do that I wouldn't do but that doesn't mean I have any right to tell them whether they should or not.

quote:


ALL things are not ok.


No thats true, but if, to use your early example, some guy wanted his penis cut off, had it done and was happy with the result who the hell are you to tell him that it wasn't ok?


< Message edited by LillyoftheVally -- 1/10/2010 1:33:12 PM >

_____________________________

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Nah I am not happy to see you either

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RE: What's too far? - 1/10/2010 1:43:29 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally

No thats true, but if, to use your early example, some guy wanted his penis cut off, had it done and was happy with the result who the hell are you to tell him that it wasn't ok?



Because in all liklihood, he wouldn't be happy with the end result. What about the example of being killed at climax? Think that person would be "happy" with the result?

Many have said how the problem arises when the fantasy is going to interfere with "real" life. Those are pretty good examples of where the "fantasy" has become too all consuming.

Personally, I think the people who live their life with the concept that everyone should do whatever they want as long as it doesn't affect them are wrong as well. In the examples above, the fantasizer needs someone to point out the "problems" with the fantasy so they can realize that their "reality" would not measure up.

Looking forward to a formal and having it not turn out the way you want is a trivial thing. I am truly sorry that it didn't live up to your expectations, these things rarely do. But the examples talk about PERMANENT results. The disappointment that your formal dance wasn't what you wanted would not even be close to the "disappointment" one would find when they permanently had a body part traumatically removed in a "scene."

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RE: What's too far? - 1/10/2010 1:51:52 PM   
LillyoftheVally


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Personally, I think the people who live their life with the concept that everyone should do whatever they want as long as it doesn't affect them are wrong as well. In the examples above, the fantasizer needs someone to point out the "problems" with the fantasy so they can realize that their "reality" would not measure up.


If that person comes and asks you for your opinion then yes sure, but blanket statements I don't think so. Because my formal idea (intentionally small) wasn't good enough there are plenty of others that match your parameters.

quote:


But the examples talk about PERMANENT results. The disappointment that your formal dance wasn't what you wanted would not even be close to the "disappointment" one would find when they permanently had a body part traumatically removed in a "scene."


My father, along with a lot of people believe tattoos to be a bad thing, that someone wanting to permanently scar their body are strange, I have had a fair few tattoos and some I hate, but will have to live with for the rest of my life, would I go back and not get them? Nope, did being preached at change my mind about getting them nope, I made my own choice based on my own knowledge.

Lets do BDSM examples now, lots and lots of people think that breath play is insane, I have done it loads of times, with people I dont really know also I know the risks I take them into account and I do it anyways, i dont give a shit whether other people approve of my choices and if I end up dead I have only myself to blame.

I think when acting out any fantasy the person should make themselves aware of the risks, but if they don't its their fault, if things go wrong well they put themselves in that situation, if they are disappointed when it fucks up if they end up mentally scarred they made that choice. This is meant to be adults we are talking about not children, yes I think give people the risks, inform those less informed about things you know more about, but I don't think that needs a value judgment about whether doing something it ok or not ok.

_____________________________

'My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.'

Nah I am not happy to see you either

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RE: What's too far? - 1/10/2010 3:12:03 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB

By the way, thank you again for all the truly thoughtful replies from everyone. I wish I could respond to all of them, but as all I want to say is "good point, thank you," I have a feeling that could get obnoxious :) But I am grateful, and I feel very supported. People are very nice here :)


Holy crap girls, someone said we're nice. We should mark this on a calender.

In seriousness, I'm glad everyone's responses were helpful and that you came here. I hope we'll see more of you in the coming days.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

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RE: What's too far? - 1/10/2010 3:41:20 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
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From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally

I think when acting out any fantasy the person should make themselves aware of the risks, but if they don't its their fault, if things go wrong well they put themselves in that situation, if they are disappointed when it fucks up if they end up mentally scarred they made that choice. This is meant to be adults we are talking about not children, yes I think give people the risks, inform those less informed about things you know more about, but I don't think that needs a value judgment about whether doing something it ok or not ok.


Well personally I would prefer to keep people from doing that if I possibly can. While "personal responsibility" is all fine and good, getting involved and trying to keep someone from making something that will likely be a huge mistake is based on compassion, not judgement.

The tattoos are a good example. Yes you now need to live with them the rest of your life. You are still young, so I assume you were even younger when you made the mistake. I have a tattoo myself, although I am not one who became "addicted to ink" and wanted more and more. Your father, as your parent, tried to point out to you the fact that one day the tattoos would be something you didn't like anymore. As a rebellious child, you chose to ignore him.

There is a huge difference between being "judgemental" and attempting to keep someone from making mistakes. Of course, I will feel the flames burning my ass for this, but the reality is that as one gets older and wiser, they often try to keep others from repeating their mistakes. As your father did. He may not have any tattoos himself, but he knew that eventually they would turn into something that was not so favored by you. But the "scar" of a tattoo is far milder than the "scar" of death or dismemberment.

Of course, if you had told your father that you were going to have your limbs amputated because you thought it would be really cool, I think he would have gone further than advising against it. Why? Because it is a stupid thing to do. A tattoo can be removed, it can be covered or altered. You can't grow back amputated appendages or come back from the dead.

Do you honestly believe that if you partook in some activity that resulted in your death or permanent physical or psychological damage, then you are the only one who would suffer? That because it was your own stupidity that put you there would alter the future of the situation? It's one thing to not be judgemental, it is quite another to be openly indifferent to society around you.

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RE: What's too far? - 1/10/2010 3:58:20 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

I know that some people crave certain things, but not all things that they crave are ok for them to indulge in.  In my belief, it isn't always in the best interest of another, to give them what they desire simply because one gets off doing so - and the other is a willing victim.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance
....Regardless, I know what is wrong for me, and simply having a transient desire for it isn't enough incentive to indulge.

Contradiction.

You are supporting a notion that suggests that people do not always choose things which are okay, whether they are consensual or not. It is a direct suggestion that they do not know what is right and wrong for themselves.

And yet you follow it up, in the very next paragraph, by saying that you, however, do magically know what is right and wrong in your case.

So, it's just everyone else that we should consider as being confused but not you because you "know what is wrong for me"?

There's a word for thinking that other people should not be permitted to do what makes them happy (if consensual) just because you think it harms them.


The way I read her post, she wasn't saying that people don't know what's right and wrong, she was saying that sometimes a strong desire can conflict with those thoughts.

Like, let's say right now I had a desire to go eat 5 of the awesome cupcakes at the tea house at the mall. In my head it's this awesome fantasy, omg tons of pink icing and squishy moist white cake. Strong desire, something I can totally see myself wanting.

But that doesn't mean it's the 'right' choice for me. If I acted on that fantasy, I'd get really sick. If I acted on that fantasy every day, I'd be a diabetic blimp with rotty teeth. Knowing that acting out the fantasy would not be in my best interest doesn't stop me from thinking omg it would be so awesome if I could eat five cupcakes for breakfast. And compared to some BDSM fantasies, the danger here is negligible.

Also I don't know where you're getting "shouldn't be permitted to" because I think Winsome was just saying what she felt the best course of action would be. She's advising against something. When she becomes a Senator, you can worry about the implications.

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RE: What's too far? - 1/10/2010 4:28:09 PM   
WinsomeDefiance


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Status: offline 		Senator Ashley does have a nice ring to it....

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RE: What's too far? - 1/10/2010 6:14:12 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Like, let's say right now I had a desire to go eat 5 of the awesome cupcakes at the tea house at the mall. In my head it's this awesome fantasy, omg tons of pink icing and squishy moist white cake.


That was NOT a nice thing to do Elisabella! As a diabetic myself (which isn't caused by eating to much sugar, but regardless), it was very mean to present the visual of lots of yummy icing!

(Not a big cake fan, but buttercream icing? I had to leave the "fondant" thread for thinking about it!)

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RE: What's too far? - 1/10/2010 9:02:48 PM   
InvisibleBlack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB
Does anyone have any fantasies that go beyond the realm of what you would consider healthy? And what do you do with these fantasies when they're rolling around in your mind insisting that you do something about them?


Of course. Everyone does. Generally, I think about them and break them out into those that are feasible and those that, for whatever reason, aren't. The feasible ones I use to inspire or enhance interactions when I'm in a relationship. The infeasible ones I pretty much just fantasize about and admit that they'll never happen - although they can provide for interesting and often exciting discussion matter. I tend to require my relationships to embrace the concept of open and non-judgemnetal discussion. Honesty and openness are big for me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB
I'm struggling with a few of my own; my fantasy life (like that of most of the people on here, I'd imagine) is very rich, and frequently goes in directions I have very little control over.


No one has control over their fantasies. You have to be accepting and forgiving of yourself. You don't get to choose what excites you or turns you on. I know a number of people who've struggled for years with their own desires and spent a lot of time basically miserable struggling with the dichotomy of what they wanted conflicting with who they thought they should be - and being riddled with guilt. I think denial is very unhealthy. That doesn't mean you should indulge in every wild desire that comes across your mind, but you need to embrace them as being yours and come to accept them as part of who you are.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB
How do you all deal with that when it happens, and where is the line for you between healthy and not?


I don't believe that there's a simple answer to this. Every person and every scenario is different. The general guideline I use, as a Dom, is to talk about things, discuss what works and what doesn't, work through possibilities and then see what can be done. As the level of trust grows in the relationship and you explore new things and push boundaries, all sorts of new fantasies often surface. Things that you'd never consider before suddenly seem interesting or exciting. The trick is to establish a dynamic where both partners feel comfortable and fulfilled. Where there's such a level of trust that the anxiety of being rejected/ruined/obliterated/whatever is gone because you know that come tomorrow - the relationship and your  lives will still be there. That's not something that happens overnight or after a scene or two. That takes commitment and understanding and togetherness and time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB
Does being in a constant state of submission and servitude make slaves incompetent of thinking of themselves assertively/positively out in the world?


It depends on the submissive or the slave (and the Dom for that matter.) Some feel more fulfilled and more confident that way. Some feel definitely empowered and more capable in that scenario.

Can an abusive Dom emotionally and mentally stunt a slave? Yes, of course. That's not the be all and end all of BDSM. A 'healthy' (and I use the term guardedly so don't get all bent out of shape you rulebook lawyers) relationship (whether D/s or not) should result in both partners being more than they are without it, not less.

I also think that it's amazingly empowering and confidence building to find someone who knows you and all of your dirty little secrets and dark desires and accepts you for them and wants you exactly because you are the way you are and not in spite of it. It can change your whole worldview. You can feel weight you never knew was on you coming off.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB
There, I said it. Now I'm going to go hide in a hole :)


I've heard far worse. It doesn't involve physical harm to yourself or others or anything illegal. Your big concern is whether or not embracing this will change who you are. What I'm saying is that it is part of who you are. You may choose not to do it but that choice should come from accepting and understanding. I think that rejecting it is just going to make it come out stronger or in some other way down the road.

My simple advice is not to oscillate between being the "smart, funny, capable young woman" you are and being "designed to be a fucktoy" and rip yourself apart. It's to work on finding a person, a relationship and a life where both have the potential to be fulfilled. Don't just search for an unloving partner who's only seeking a fucktoy. Don't deny your desires and find someone who's only comfortable with what you show in the outside world and then blow them apart when a couple of years down the road you decide you can't handle not expressing these desires. Find someone who can embrace, accept and enhance the woman you are out in your life and who wants that, and who also wants a slave that loves him so much that he can control her to be the perfect fucktoy who will get him off however he wants. Work together at building something that fulfills both your personal goals and your personal desires, if you follow me.

What if you found someone who wants a woman to go out with, have dinner, see a show, have stimulating conversation, live a life - but also wants to go home and be stern and demanding of the perfect fucktoy? Why can't both go together? Can't there be someone for whom the "perfect toy" is also smart and funny and capable?

I admit, this may be difficult to bring up in casual dating conversation, but that's the reason why places like CM exist. Is every guy going to want this? No. Some will just want three wet holes to use and abuse. Some will be unable to cope with a woman who wants to be a fucktoy. But there are some who want exactly both and want exactly both in the same woman. I suspect if you phrased it just that way on your profile, there'd be guys lining up.

Maybe I'm off-base here and your fantasy requires you to relinquish everything else and solely be a mindless pleasure unit - but even then I think with the right person it would be possible to work through to a relationship where you could provide that and live the life you currently live and still be comfortable with yourself. I truly believe that with enough understanding, genuine compassion, trust, enthusiasm, sincerity and humor things can be made to work. The big trick is for both partners to be mature enough and open enough to muster those virtues.

I've written an essay again. I need to work on being concise and pithy and like that.

[Edited for typos. It happens a lot.]

< Message edited by InvisibleBlack -- 1/10/2010 9:06:14 PM >

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RE: What's too far? - 1/10/2010 9:15:50 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

I don't magically know what is wrong for me.  I know from experience.  Consenting to certain things, were wrong for me.  Consenting to the harm, only made it consentual abuse.

And consent must make it okay because the only other alternative is to treat a person like they are too immature to make their own decisions.

What you are describing here is regret. Of course we all consent to decisions that we look back on and say "that wasn't what would have been best for me". That's where responsibility and taking the time to be introspective with ourselves comes in.

So...if you mean that it is possible for us to consent to something willingly that, in hindsight, we may think was atrocious,
then, yes...things consented to are not automatically going to be okay. However, if we have any interest at being arbiters of our own lives (as opposed to signing it away to the morality of another), then we have to accept that consent is paramount.

People still have the right to openly make stupid decisions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

I believe in the free exercise of ones rights.  We have the right to make mistakes, and to be wrong.  But just because we consent to it, and indulge our desires, doesn't make everything magically ok.

Not magically, but it makes it okay.

If a grown man manages to convince a grown woman that she should whore herself out for his monetary gain and she willingly obliges then it is okay...unless we have good reason to suspect that she is mentally incapacitated. And I don't mean she's on a rebound and decided to drown her sorrows in a new relationship, but seriously mentally incapacitated. Because we are talking about situations in which we think an adult should be held absolved from the responsibility of their own decisions.

And if we're going to say that X is not okay even though she consented to it, then I suggest we lock her up in a padded room until we're sure she can't consent to something that may non-consensually harm another because she cannot adequately be held up as being responsible for her own choices.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

I have the right to set limits on what I will indulge others in.  Just because something turns me on, if I don't believe it is right, or correct or worthy of the risks - I freely exercise my right to abstain.  I do not meander through existence believing that because someone gives me carte blanche, I am without responsibility for my actions.

WinD

That's the point I'm making but you're pointing it in a different direction. You're saying that somehow, the dominant in my hypothetical above should somehow magically know that this woman should not be consenting to what she actually is consenting to and that he should bear the burden of curtailing his demands/requests because she cannot consent competently.

That's a totally backwards way to treat relationships.


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

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RE: What's too far? - 1/10/2010 9:32:46 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
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From: Nashville, TN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Quite frankly, a man who is searching for someone to cut off his dick with a knife, not simply fantasizing about it, yea, he is wrong.

It takes the sort of self-righteousness that would put us all into mandatory therapy to use your morals to decide when someone's willing choices are "wrong" even if they're consensual.

And apotemnophilia has been discussed before and it continues to be a great example to part the waters between those who view things from a position of civil liberties and those who view things from a position of ethical imposition.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

The concept that "consent" makes everything ok is part of what makes "outside" society see BDSM as some really deviant bizarre freak show.

I didn't realize our aim here was to placate the prudish sensibilities of the vanilla world.

'Yeah, we'll let blacks ride the bus but don't let them sit up front just yet because too many majority minds couldn't handle the shock to the ethical senses.'

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Promoting the idea that ALL things are "ok" as long as everyone consents to someone new to the lifestyle is irresponsible.

Pretending that the 'lifestyle' is supposed to be a class on morality and how to ease the poor brainless fledglings into better understanding of themselves, on the other hand, is just downright patronizing.

Why stop at this lifestyle? Why not keep everyone on the world from doing potentially dangerous things because we want to look good? It'll totally gain us popularity points if we pretend we're trying to save people from their twisted selves...

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

There have been more than enough examples of things that while one might find the fantasy "hot," the reality of the fantasy would not be enjoyable.

And I take it you are ready to that person which of their desires qualify, yes?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Not because of some need to suppress the thoughts based on a moral foundation, but simply because the reality is unrealistic.

If how realistic something is becomes the measuring stick by which to call something 'wrong', how do you suppose any technological advancement has ever happened? Any civilized advancements??

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Do you honestly think that if someone fantasized about being killed at climax, they should act that out?

I don't presume to be a greater moral force in someone's life that they themselves are. If they are a friend, I'd certainly talk them through it and make sure they had considered all the possibilities (including the fact that I'd miss them like hell), but I'd be an asshole to demand that they should not do it because I thought I knew what was better for them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Can you really justify that with the simple "consent" or say that it would be healthy to act out?

People like tossing the word "healthy" out and about without understanding how humans work psychologically. Or people like presuming that physiological health is the default barometer to measure things by (in which case, start lining up all the cutters, flame-players, breath-players, spankers, whippers, floggers, hitters, slappers....).

Unless it can be definitively determined that someone, for some reason, is genuinely trying to act out something that they genuinely do not want to do, it is healthy insofar as the fact that each individual's consent trumps stereotypical health (or let's start lining up the smokers too...oh, and the drinkers...and stuntpeople...and UFC fighters...)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Often you will offer some thought provoking, insight comments. But when you jump on the "all things are ok as long as all parties consent" it is just ridiculous. ALL things are not ok. Some people like the fantasy, others want the reality. It isn't suppressing happiness to not want them. It isn't unhealthy to not want them.

If they choose not to do them, that's perfectly fine. If people prefer to dichotomize their fantasies from their reality, that's their decision. I think it shows a clear underlying self-contradiction...but, hey...if that's what they are okay with living with, more power to them.

And, yes...all mutually consented to actions are "okay". That's the responsibility we take by being human.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Elisabeth explained the differences very well. DesFIP, damn woman those were some great examples. I struggled to come up with something that was sufficiently explicit, but still quite unrealistic to fufill in real life.

Finding a lifelong partner that fulfills you in the most important ways is usually unrealistic for most! What the hell are we all doing here, then?

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 1/10/2010 9:33:16 PM >

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

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RE: What's too far? - 1/10/2010 9:41:06 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
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From: Nashville, TN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

The way I read her post, she wasn't saying that people don't know what's right and wrong, she was saying that sometimes a strong desire can conflict with those thoughts.

And what does that mean, in the end? That we have two conflicting options inside our heads.

We, each of us, got here because we came upon a similar crossroads and, for some reason, chose the option that was less socially acceptable (and likely the one our initial 'conscience' was advising against).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Like, let's say right now I had a desire to go eat 5 of the awesome cupcakes at the tea house at the mall. In my head it's this awesome fantasy, omg tons of pink icing and squishy moist white cake. Strong desire, something I can totally see myself wanting.

But that doesn't mean it's the 'right' choice for me. If I acted on that fantasy, I'd get really sick. If I acted on that fantasy every day, I'd be a diabetic blimp with rotty teeth.

So if I see you reaching for one, I don't want any lip if I smack it out of your hand and eat it myself!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Knowing that acting out the fantasy would not be in my best interest doesn't stop me from thinking omg it would be so awesome if I could eat five cupcakes for breakfast. And compared to some BDSM fantasies, the danger here is negligible.

Is that what it all comes down to? Whether or not we are self-righteous enough to suppose we have the place to save someone else (an adult, no less) from themselves? That takes come cojones.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Also I don't know where you're getting "shouldn't be permitted to" because I think Winsome was just saying what she felt the best course of action would be. She's advising against something. When she becomes a Senator, you can worry about the implications.

As if there are not enough humans who think like that in such positions?


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

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RE: What's too far? - 1/10/2010 10:12:29 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

The way I read her post, she wasn't saying that people don't know what's right and wrong, she was saying that sometimes a strong desire can conflict with those thoughts.

And what does that mean, in the end? That we have two conflicting options inside our heads.

We, each of us, got here because we came upon a similar crossroads and, for some reason, chose the option that was less socially acceptable (and likely the one our initial 'conscience' was advising against).


Exactly - two conflicting options. Social acceptability doesn't make something the 'right' option.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Like, let's say right now I had a desire to go eat 5 of the awesome cupcakes at the tea house at the mall. In my head it's this awesome fantasy, omg tons of pink icing and squishy moist white cake. Strong desire, something I can totally see myself wanting.

But that doesn't mean it's the 'right' choice for me. If I acted on that fantasy, I'd get really sick. If I acted on that fantasy every day, I'd be a diabetic blimp with rotty teeth.

So if I see you reaching for one, I don't want any lip if I smack it out of your hand and eat it myself!


You have it in your head that saying something isn't okay always equates to forcibly preventing someone from doing something.

I see nothing wrong with you telling me "That is a horrible idea, it's self destructive, and it's not in your best interest to do this." And if I asked you to go to the shop and get the cupcakes for me you can tell me no.

But really what I'm getting at is that IMO eating a bunch of cupcakes for breakfast, or castrating yourself with a butcher knife, or being raped with a foreign object until you bleed, or having someone "pop" your testicle, or whatever it is, can very well be the 'wrong' choice if by 'wrong' we mean self destructive.

Acknowledging that it's a self destructive bad choice does not equate to expecting big brother to swoop in and pass a law saving a person from themselves. It just means that, well, you think it's a bad choice.

I think you're so caught up in not judging people that you want to go a step further and deny there's such thing as good judgement.
quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Knowing that acting out the fantasy would not be in my best interest doesn't stop me from thinking omg it would be so awesome if I could eat five cupcakes for breakfast. And compared to some BDSM fantasies, the danger here is negligible.

Is that what it all comes down to? Whether or not we are self-righteous enough to suppose we have the place to save someone else (an adult, no less) from themselves? That takes come cojones.


No, not save someone else. Simply refuse to accept their self destructiveness as anything other than self destructiveness.

I think that drugs should be legal, even the "hard" ones. That doesn't mean I'm going to tell a heroin addict "Hey, great life choice you're making! Glad you're making your decisions solely based on hedonistic pleasure!"

I think people should have the right to screw up their own lives...and I think people should also have the right to view things as "wrong" rather than place tolerance on a pedestal above sound judgement.

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Also I don't know where you're getting "shouldn't be permitted to" because I think Winsome was just saying what she felt the best course of action would be. She's advising against something. When she becomes a Senator, you can worry about the implications.

As if there are not enough humans who think like that in such positions?



No doubt. I'm just saying for average civvies like us, there's no real issue with thinking someone's fetish is a really bad idea. And really, in an ideal world, politicians would be able to separate their opinions and judgements about people's personal lives from their professional duties.

In an ideal world.

< Message edited by Elisabella -- 1/10/2010 10:15:22 PM >

(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: What's too far? - 1/10/2010 10:19:26 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Like, let's say right now I had a desire to go eat 5 of the awesome cupcakes at the tea house at the mall. In my head it's this awesome fantasy, omg tons of pink icing and squishy moist white cake.


That was NOT a nice thing to do Elisabella! As a diabetic myself (which isn't caused by eating to much sugar, but regardless), it was very mean to present the visual of lots of yummy icing!

(Not a big cake fan, but buttercream icing? I had to leave the "fondant" thread for thinking about it!)



Awww I'm sorry! Those cupcakes are really awful! Really! They taste like sand and dirt!

Nasty awful things they are. You're lucky you can't waste $5 on such a vomit inducing disaster.

Better?

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: What's too far? - 1/10/2010 10:33:28 PM   
jujubeeMB


Posts: 723
Joined: 1/8/2010
Status: offline 		Ok, let me clarify further, since my fantasy didn't seem to shock anyone in the slightest :) and I think that the debate over what is healthy or not could use the information. My dad was very distant from me as a kid, and actually left when I was an adolescent. I haven't heard from him to this day. I have a tendency to choose to love people (both friends and boyfriends) who can't give me the love I want from them. So whether it's healthy to drill this need to be manipulated and used BECAUSE of my love for a man is actually really a concern to me.

I was actually very hesitant to accept my deep submissive desires in the first place because of where (I think) a lot of them came from, but I did years of reflecting and talked about it with some wonderful, open-minded therapists, and read a lot of accounts of submissive women who had similar beginnings. And I realized that being sexually fulfilled was something I deserved and was willing to explore the dark parts of my mind to discover. However, it's important to me that the masochistic elements not prevent the other, equally important parts of me from thriving.

When I say I'm a very smart, funny, capable young woman, I'm not just saying that as a societally-imposed standard which I'm trying to follow but-oh-if-only-I-could-just-be-a-fucktoy. My sexual self is VERY important to me, but it's not more important than my self which is tougher than all y'all and will someday take over the world. I'm being silly with that, of course, but you know what I mean. I'm as smart and as well-adjusted and as powerful as any person I've ever met, and that is REALLY important to me. So the dichotomy really is as pronounced as was pointed out. I think InvisibleBlack's advice about refraining from oscillating between the two "selves" is great - how the hell do I DO that? :)

And someone asked earlier (I'm sorry, I can't find it to quote it) if I was worried about what I thought about myself or what my previous Dom thought about me, in terms of respect. The answer is both, but what he thought about me was the problem. He actually believed - or at least told me he believed, even when it upset me on numerous occasions - that I was designed to be a fucktoy and that I should give up all the rest and just do that. He said that while I was most assuredly a very talented, smart young woman, my primary talent was being on my knees with my mouth open, and I owed it to myself to accept that. Of course I found this insanely hot while I was turned on, but when I wasn't, it just made me feel like I had to escape, and fast.

Another final thought: all the men who are responding seem to be saying "go for it" (several tempered with very intelligent, thoughtful ways to go about it), while the women seem to be divided between "go for it if you want to" and "don't do it if it's going to cause damage." It's making me wonder if that's a coincidence or if it has something to do with gender. It could also have to do with being a Dom versus being a sub, since frankly, being the Dom in my fantasy is a hell of a lot easier, psychologically, the next day. Isn't it?

(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: What's too far? - 1/10/2010 11:09:06 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB

Ok, let me clarify further, since my fantasy didn't seem to shock anyone in the slightest :) and I think that the debate over what is healthy or not could use the information. My dad was very distant from me as a kid, and actually left when I was an adolescent. I haven't heard from him to this day. I have a tendency to choose to love people (both friends and boyfriends) who can't give me the love I want from them. So whether it's healthy to drill this need to be manipulated and used BECAUSE of my love for a man is actually really a concern to me.

I was actually very hesitant to accept my deep submissive desires in the first place because of where (I think) a lot of them came from, but I did years of reflecting and talked about it with some wonderful, open-minded therapists, and read a lot of accounts of submissive women who had similar beginnings. And I realized that being sexually fulfilled was something I deserved and was willing to explore the dark parts of my mind to discover. However, it's important to me that the masochistic elements not prevent the other, equally important parts of me from thriving.

When I say I'm a very smart, funny, capable young woman, I'm not just saying that as a societally-imposed standard which I'm trying to follow but-oh-if-only-I-could-just-be-a-fucktoy. My sexual self is VERY important to me, but it's not more important than my self which is tougher than all y'all and will someday take over the world. I'm being silly with that, of course, but you know what I mean. I'm as smart and as well-adjusted and as powerful as any person I've ever met, and that is REALLY important to me. So the dichotomy really is as pronounced as was pointed out. I think InvisibleBlack's advice about refraining from oscillating between the two "selves" is great - how the hell do I DO that? :)

And someone asked earlier (I'm sorry, I can't find it to quote it) if I was worried about what I thought about myself or what my previous Dom thought about me, in terms of respect. The answer is both, but what he thought about me was the problem. He actually believed - or at least told me he believed, even when it upset me on numerous occasions - that I was designed to be a fucktoy and that I should give up all the rest and just do that. He said that while I was most assuredly a very talented, smart young woman, my primary talent was being on my knees with my mouth open, and I owed it to myself to accept that. Of course I found this insanely hot while I was turned on, but when I wasn't, it just made me feel like I had to escape, and fast.

Another final thought: all the men who are responding seem to be saying "go for it" (several tempered with very intelligent, thoughtful ways to go about it), while the women seem to be divided between "go for it if you want to" and "don't do it if it's going to cause damage." It's making me wonder if that's a coincidence or if it has something to do with gender. It could also have to do with being a Dom versus being a sub, since frankly, being the Dom in my fantasy is a hell of a lot easier, psychologically, the next day. Isn't it?


Psychologically I'd say yes it's easier for the dom, but if he were to post this fantasy on these boards I imagine he'd be ripped to shreds for being a 'misogynist.' I do agree that gender most likely influences responses, because men and women are judged by different sexual standards. The women are more likely to have an initial response that takes into consideration social stigma for being 'that' type of woman.

If you don't mind, it would help to clarify - do you want to be with a man who believes this, or do you want to be with a man who says those things in the bedroom while respecting you as a person outside of it?

One thing I'd like to say - even a strong, educated, successful woman can have a weakness. Think of the fortunes men have wasted on women who only loved their power and fortune...it's the same thing, except as a woman you have different assets that someone could be after.

Just a random thought, if it is something you're looking for...why not find a handsome, successful man to come home to, who will love and cherish you, and who is okay with you taking a 'bad boy' lover to fulfill that need? That way you get the best of both worlds, and you can have the weak spot without basing your whole love life around it :)

(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: What's too far? - 1/10/2010 11:10:00 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

You have it in your head that saying something isn't okay always equates to forcibly preventing someone from doing something.

That may be a bit of a follow-through on my part, yes, but that's usually where I see the idea progressing to. Sure, it's not invasive to just think that someone should be kept from doing what they wish...but that mentality is where the motivation to actually intercede comes from.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

I see nothing wrong with you telling me "That is a horrible idea, it's self destructive, and it's not in your best interest to do this." And if I asked you to go to the shop and get the cupcakes for me you can tell me no.

I personally wouldn't even go that far. If it was something rather extreme, I may take the initiative to make sure you understand what you're asking for...but I usually like to think of my friends as a competent bunch who understand the decisions they make. Maybe you've got a damn good reason to do something odd which I haven't considered.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

But really what I'm getting at is that IMO eating a bunch of cupcakes for breakfast, or castrating yourself with a butcher knife, or being raped with a foreign object until you bleed, or having someone "pop" your testicle, or whatever it is, can very well be the 'wrong' choice if by 'wrong' we mean self destructive.

Which, again, can just as easily bring us back to smoking or drinking (nevermind harder drugs or some of the harsher pain-plays often discussed here). But, the point of being human (and have self-reflective rentience) is that we get to determine for ourselves that is "self-destructive".

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Acknowledging that it's a self destructive bad choice does not equate to expecting big brother to swoop in and pass a law saving a person from themselves. It just means that, well, you think it's a bad choice.

I think you're so caught up in not judging people that you want to go a step further and deny there's such thing as good judgement.

That's because I do not adhere to the concept of universal 'good judgment'. I mean, sure...perhaps it's easy to tell when someone is about to make a decision they will shortly come to regret (I do own two volumes of The Darwin Awards), but I don't consider that an issue of 'right' or 'wrong', just an issue of whether the person was smart or not. And, far as I know, it's still not a crime to not be smart.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Is that what it all comes down to? Whether or not we are self-righteous enough to suppose we have the place to save someone else (an adult, no less) from themselves? That takes come cojones.


No, not save someone else. Simply refuse to accept their self destructiveness as anything other than self destructiveness.

I think that drugs should be legal, even the "hard" ones. That doesn't mean I'm going to tell a heroin addict "Hey, great life choice you're making! Glad you're making your decisions solely based on hedonistic pleasure!"
I think every decision in the world, as ridiculous and extreme as it may be, can be arrived at from a position of honest assessment and desire. We aren't talking about whether certain things are good or poor decisions...we're talking about whether the means by which people arrive to that decision are competent and mature.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

I think people should have the right to screw up their own lives...and I think people should also have the right to view things as "wrong" rather than place tolerance on a pedestal above sound judgement.

Not wrong. Just foolish. And still, we only know those things after the fact. Everyone's a pedestal speaker in hindsight.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

No doubt. I'm just saying for average civvies like us, there's no real issue with thinking someone's fetish is a really bad idea. And really, in an ideal world, politicians would be able to separate their opinions and judgements about people's personal lives from their professional duties.

But there is no critical thinking litmus test that people take before taking such office and modern civilization sure as hell doesn't readily value it enough to teach it across the board. So, I think being able to address the illogic of it at any location makes for the chance that it is more widely dispelled overall (unless, to be fair, people willingly consent to still remain uneducated about it ).

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 1/10/2010 11:30:07 PM >

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

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(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: What's too far? - 1/10/2010 11:11:57 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

People still have the right to openly make stupid decisions.



And others have the right to tell them they are stupid decisions. It doesn't equate to being "judgemental."


quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

If a grown man manages to convince a grown woman that she should whore herself out for his monetary gain and she willingly obliges then it is okay...unless we have good reason to suspect that she is mentally incapacitated. And I don't mean she's on a rebound and decided to drown her sorrows in a new relationship, but seriously mentally incapacitated. Because we are talking about situations in which we think an adult should be held absolved from the responsibility of their own decisions.

And if we're going to say that X is not okay even though she consented to it, then I suggest we lock her up in a padded room until we're sure she can't consent to something that may non-consensually harm another because she cannot adequately be held up as being responsible for her own choices.


You see the bolded phrase? It affects the "willingly obliges" portion of the statement. Especially when you have the idiot on top telling some newbie "this is how it is done. You agreed to obey and please me at all times." Yes, she is still making a stupid decision, but also yes, that the top "convinced" (cajoled, pressured, pushed) her into doing, so yes, the top bears some responsibility. And yes, as with the example of the guy who is insisting that someone cut his dick off with a butcher knife...he can't adequately make responsible decisions for himself.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
That's the point I'm making but you're pointing it in a different direction. You're saying that somehow, the dominant in my hypothetical above should somehow magically know that this woman should not be consenting to what she actually is consenting to and that he should bear the burden of curtailing his demands/requests because she cannot consent competently.


In your example, he is "managing to convince" her to do something, no magic involved. The managing to convince is indicative of his knowing that it isn't something she wants to consent to and so yes he should be curtailing his "demand." That's the whole "pushing limits" issue though and really not what this is about, but in any case, not everyone is able to stand up for themselves and say "hell no." Especially when they are new and exploring and someone is spouting all kinds of rules at them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
It takes the sort of self-righteousness that would put us all into mandatory therapy to use your morals to decide when someone's willing choices are "wrong" even if they're consensual.


While it is clear that you think I'm overly judgemental and have out of whack morals, there are some extremes that are simply beyond the boundaries of reasonable thought. It isn't a matter of civil liberties or "ethical imposition."

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
I didn't realize our aim here was to placate the prudish sensibilities of the vanilla world.


Yet many here would like to see their lifestyle choices become more acceptable in the "vanilla" world. To have the opportunity to not worry about the consequences with their family or employment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
Pretending that the 'lifestyle' is supposed to be a class on morality and how to ease the poor brainless fledglings into better understanding of themselves, on the other hand, is just downright patronizing.


And pretending that all things are "ok" and that morals don't exist because it is BDSM is ridiculous.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
Why stop at this lifestyle? Why not keep everyone on the world from doing potentially dangerous things because we want to look good? It'll totally gain us popularity points if we pretend we're trying to save people from their twisted selves...


Gee, last time I checked we had laws to try to deter people from doing such things. Kind of why people can be committed against their will to a psychiatric facility to prevent them from doing harm to themselves or others. But I guess you think those people should be able to do that harm to themselves as long as they really want to do it, even if there might be some psychological disorder that is causing that thought, which by the way means they ARE NOT able to adequately make responsible decisions for themselves.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
If how realistic something is becomes the measuring stick by which to call something 'wrong', how do you suppose any technological advancement has ever happened? Any civilized advancements??


You do know what comparing apples and oranges means, right? There is a rather significant difference between someone wanting to create a computer that can process really fast and someone wanting to cut off an appendage.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
I don't presume to be a greater moral force in someone's life that they themselves are. If they are a friend, I'd certainly talk them through it and make sure they had considered all the possibilities (including the fact that I'd miss them like hell), but I'd be an asshole to demand that they should not do it because I thought I knew what was better for them.


And when that friend's family found out that you knew what the friend was going to do and the likely outcome of the act, they would think you were much more than an asshole because you didn't stop them.


quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

People like tossing the word "healthy" out and about without understanding how humans work psychologically. Or people like presuming that physiological health is the default barometer to measure things by (in which case, start lining up all the cutters, flame-players, breath-players, spankers, whippers, floggers, hitters, slappers....).


Actually since I do understand how humans work from a psychological standpoint, I'm not simply "tossing" the word healthy about. You mention "cutters" and I know that there are many here who are involved in that type of play. I'm also aware that there are people (typically young women) who are "cutters" and it is due to psychological issues. It would seem according to you though, that they are making their own decisions and they should be left alone. Same thing with anorexics. They are making a conscious decision to starve themselves to death. Many are very aware of the risks, yet they do it anyway. Should no one make a "judgement" that they need help?

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

Finding a lifelong partner that fulfills you in the most important ways is usually unrealistic for most!


Perhaps herein lies the problem with your thinking at its core. A great many people DO find a lifelong partner that fufills the MOST important things to them. When one views it as an impossibility, it won't ever happen because they have closed themselves off to the possibility that it can happen.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
Is that what it all comes down to? Whether or not we are self-righteous enough to suppose we have the place to save someone else (an adult, no less) from themselves? That takes come cojones.


I have the cojones to be that "self-righteous" although I don't believe it is being self righteous. I believe that all humans have a responsibility to do what they can to protect other human beings even it sometimes it is protecting them from themselves. I have zero respect for those who think it is ok to sit on the sidelines and do nothing Even less for those who while calling others "judgemental" and "self-righteous" and "imposing our morals" on others are being judgemental and self righteous telling me how wrong I am.

I don't expect you to ever understand that. It's much easier to sit back and philosophize and hand out points to people who agree with your way of thinking. But then again that is the problem with philosophers on the whole. They love to sit back and tell everyone else what is wrong with society and what should be done to make it better, but they don't want to personally take any action to make it happen. Too much responsibility I guess.






(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: What's too far? - 1/10/2010 11:29:18 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB

Ok, let me clarify further, since my fantasy didn't seem to shock anyone in the slightest :) and I think that the debate over what is healthy or not could use the information. My dad was very distant from me as a kid, and actually left when I was an adolescent. I haven't heard from him to this day. I have a tendency to choose to love people (both friends and boyfriends) who can't give me the love I want from them. So whether it's healthy to drill this need to be manipulated and used BECAUSE of my love for a man is actually really a concern to me.

It should be and yet it shouldn't be.

It doesn't really matter, in the end, the reasons why you arrive at wishing for something so long as you can come to a comfortable relationship with liking the fact that you do wish for it.

Someone who was spanked often as a child should not deserve any les a right to happily enjoy it later in life because it can be traced back to a negative instance. Heck...how do any of us move on to good relationships if we have bad ones in our past, then?

quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB

I was actually very hesitant to accept my deep submissive desires in the first place because of where (I think) a lot of them came from, but I did years of reflecting and talked about it with some wonderful, open-minded therapists, and read a lot of accounts of submissive women who had similar beginnings. And I realized that being sexually fulfilled was something I deserved and was willing to explore the dark parts of my mind to discover. However, it's important to me that the masochistic elements not prevent the other, equally important parts of me from thriving.

So you're having fun with the internal juggling act of priorities we all go through. Have fun!

quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB

When I say I'm a very smart, funny, capable young woman, I'm not just saying that as a societally-imposed standard which I'm trying to follow but-oh-if-only-I-could-just-be-a-fucktoy. My sexual self is VERY important to me, but it's not more important than my self which is tougher than all y'all and will someday take over the world. I'm being silly with that, of course, but you know what I mean. I'm as smart and as well-adjusted and as powerful as any person I've ever met, and that is REALLY important to me. So the dichotomy really is as pronounced as was pointed out. I think InvisibleBlack's advice about refraining from oscillating between the two "selves" is great - how the hell do I DO that? :)

Play a Risk game between your two inner sides and let the winner prevail. *nod*


quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB

And someone asked earlier (I'm sorry, I can't find it to quote it) if I was worried about what I thought about myself or what my previous Dom thought about me, in terms of respect. The answer is both, but what he thought about me was the problem. He actually believed - or at least told me he believed, even when it upset me on numerous occasions - that I was designed to be a fucktoy and that I should give up all the rest and just do that. He said that while I was most assuredly a very talented, smart young woman, my primary talent was being on my knees with my mouth open, and I owed it to myself to accept that. Of course I found this insanely hot while I was turned on, but when I wasn't, it just made me feel like I had to escape, and fast.

So you just need the right balance in a partner. The good part is you're learning how to iron out the specifics in what you want this way.


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: What's too far? - 1/10/2010 11:33:49 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB

And someone asked earlier (I'm sorry, I can't find it to quote it) if I was worried about what I thought about myself or what my previous Dom thought about me, in terms of respect. The answer is both, but what he thought about me was the problem. He actually believed - or at least told me he believed, even when it upset me on numerous occasions - that I was designed to be a fucktoy and that I should give up all the rest and just do that. He said that while I was most assuredly a very talented, smart young woman, my primary talent was being on my knees with my mouth open, and I owed it to myself to accept that. Of course I found this insanely hot while I was turned on, but when I wasn't, it just made me feel like I had to escape, and fast.


So there lies your answer. Sure he told you that you were smart and talented, but at the end of the day, he really didn't respect you for it and thought you should spend your life on your knees. When you are all turned on and playing, it's great to wrap your head around that thought, that "fantasy." Then comes real life and the fact that while you enjoy being a fucktoy, you KNOW in your head that you are much more than that and want to continue to be much more than that. There is a dom out there, as everyone has pointed out, that will want a smart, talented fucktoy. This guy wasn't him.

So before NZ comes in here tellling me how wrong I am for making any "judgement" on what you said....your worry seems to have been directly related to how THIS dom viewed things. Based on the posts that you made, in the long run, if you did give up all else so you could do nothing but fuck and suck all day and was told every day that was your "purpose," yes it likely would have caused you "harm." Because that isn't all of who you are, just a tiny part. Now certainly there are some women who actually don't WANT to be anything else, and that is ok for them. The fantasy of it, for you, even the reality of it in the moment is enjoyable. It enhances your arousal and your mood, but you still need to get up and go to work or school the next day. And I assume you you enjoy that too. But being that and a fucktoy seem to be diametrically opposed. There is no reason not to have both, but with the right partner. And if over time, you decide one is more important to you than the other, i.e. be a full time fucktoy, that will be the time when you are ready to give up the other stuff. In the meantime, if you are going to be with partners like the one you described, the relationships will be short lived because in the cold light of day, that fantasy isn't making you feel as good as it should or could.

(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 80
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