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RE: gifts - 1/13/2010 8:34:29 AM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Sooooooooooo, here's the deal peoples. If you want a power exchange dynamic and are worried about losing shit when the deal goes south, don't give the s a damned thing! Cuz, all of the sudden that sweet little submissive/slave that agreed to a total power exchange, is going to turn into a greedy vanilla bitch/bastard.



The monogamy was clearly agreed upon by both parties. The sub was definitely not selfish or greedy. She gave him $250 and let him borrow her car on New Years Eve. He used her car to cheat on her, dumped her, and deliberately hid her car from her when she demanded it's return until the following evening. He apologized, but refused to make it up to her and wants to be just friends. He is currently using the laptop she gave him to hook up with other women. She is refusing to accept his insincere apology or his offer of friendship and is demanding that he return the laptop. Good for her I say.


_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


Collared by MartinSpankalot May 13 2008

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: gifts - 1/13/2010 8:37:12 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		If that is how she wants to waste her energy, that is her choice. From what you've written, it seems they BOTH need to do some growing up.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: gifts - 1/13/2010 9:47:53 AM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

It depends on the expectaions of those involved. It depends on any agrrements that were made. It depends on a whole list of shit we don't know.

Jeff


We are in 100% Agreement on the Expectations

_____________________________



(in reply to Jeffff)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: gifts - 1/13/2010 9:49:32 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline

_____________________________

"If you don't live it, it won't come out your horn." Charlie Parker

(in reply to Aileen1968)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: gifts - 1/13/2010 11:10:34 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Legally the relationship UNDERSTANDING to me would have weight with the case and the integrity of the players.

For example, if you are in a D/s or M/s situation with the overall understanding that the Man can do as he wishes, to me that puts a stipulation on ALL gifts meaning he maintains control over what is done with them and they in fact belong to him even if he is allowing the girl to use them as a gift.  In other words, she would in fact be lying in court if she states that he gave her the computer without stipulation because the whole of their relationship IS the stipulation. 

However, if that understanding doesn't exist and he gives her something and tells the court he didn't or not in that way when he knew he did, he then would be lying to the court.

It all depends on the understanding of the gift, you can gift someone with the USE of something which puts a stipulation and more than likely a unspoken time limit or conditions,

Its not that hard in court to say -- Your Honor, yes i did buy the computer for her to use, i did not buy the computer for her to keep or own.  Whether your integrity will allow you to lie about it in court is another story.

You is general.

angel

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: gifts - 1/13/2010 11:38:48 AM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

The monogamy was clearly agreed upon by both parties. The sub was definitely not selfish or greedy. She gave him $250 and let him borrow her car on New Years Eve. He used her car to cheat on her, dumped her, and deliberately hid her car from her when she demanded it's return until the following evening.



The money is irrelevant.  What he used the car for is irrelevant.  What is relevant is that once he refused to return the car, she would be legally in the right to report it stolen. 


quote:



He apologized, but refused to make it up to her and wants to be just friends. He is currently using the laptop she gave him to hook up with other women. She is refusing to accept his insincere apology or his offer of friendship and is demanding that he return the laptop. Good for her I say.



She has no legal right to get the laptop back, unless she can spin it, and get a judge to believe, that it was her equivalent of an engagement ring... a promise to marry.  When he broke the engagement, he would have to return the engagement ring... errr... engagement laptop.

Cali


_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: gifts - 1/13/2010 12:04:28 PM   
rockspider


Posts: 633
Joined: 9/26/2009
Status: offline 		A gift is a gift andd when handed over so is the ownership of it.
But there is also the case where usage of a thing is the gift. Like if i give my kid a car. If i register it in her name it is hers forever. If i buy it in my name and just hand her the keyes I am still retaining the ownership and as such is fully in my right to reclaim the car for reasons I deem fit.

(in reply to CalifChick)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: gifts - 1/13/2010 12:12:49 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
~ Fast Surprise ~

Trust - Self Esteem - Integrity

What's the price you put on those items?

Remember the old 'joke'; "why is divorce so expensive? - Because it's worth it!"?

Whatever the situation, condition, or the price of the item, diamond necklace or computer in question; how does that compare to the value of you? 'Stuff' gets old, breaks down, becomes obsolete (especially computers); assets can be replaced. How are you going to put back together the relationship once whatever the item's value is repaid or reimbursed? To me, and in my personal opinion - you can't. Unlike a broken computer you can't fix or replace lost trust.

I have a habit of 'lending' money to people I know. I think my repayment level is about 75%. For the other 25% I never got the money back, and in most cases never saw the person again. However, I don't look at those failed occasions of repayment as a loss. In fact I view those as very valuable ROI (Return On Investment). I learned exactly how much the 'friendship' was worth. My 'friend' spent his 'equity' by not repaying it, much more valuable information than whatever money I lent out because, over the long haul, it saved me from emotionally investing in a friendship whose value was the price of the 'loan'.

In this case - whatever the item, whatever side of the flogger, you've gained much more value and saved long term investment.

Were such a case presented to me in my life, my reaction would be; keep the computer, printer, extra battery, and all the other peripherals involved. Enjoy it as a parting gift - goodbye - thank you - and give my regards, and sympathy, to whoever it is you're chatting with on-line.

The 'legality', what's 'right', or the terms of service; don't matter to me. I look at it this way; trust, self esteem, integrity - versus a 'gift'; there's really a question about what's more important and/or valuable? One side is 'price-less' and nothing on the other side can balance it out; when it occurred, or ever again once one side makes it clear where which side of the scale they value more. The question wouldn't be whether I should take the computer back, but what else I could leave behind.

Maybe I'm reading this wrong and the relationship is already over. Great - it was anyway. The cost of finding out, like divorce, was worth it.

This was my first reaction to this thread when beth was reading it and responding this morning. My "surprise" is, that this selfish, capitalist pig, was the one to take this perspective.

(in reply to CalifChick)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: gifts - 1/13/2010 5:21:31 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		If the d has decided to end the relationship, then it is no longer a power relationship. At that point he could demand the computer back but she isn't required to do so. If he takes her to small claims court, he will have to show it is a loan and not a gift. Without paperwork, this isn't going to happen.

However, if someone did this to me I would give them back the computer but without the hard drive. I wouldn't trust them to have copies of my passwords, banking info etc.  I might give them a separate hard drive to replace it.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: gifts - 1/13/2010 5:59:19 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

As a general rule, gifts are supposed to come with no strings attached. Are there exceptions to this rule? If someone deliberately uses a gift they were given to non-consentually hurt the person who gave the gift to them, is it appropriate in that case to ask that the gift be returned? Why or why not?


We spent a couple of weeks studying the concept of reciprocity last year in one of my theory courses when looking at gift giving from around the world. Giving and receiving seems to have different meanings for different people, and our view that a true gift is given with no expectation of any return is not only ethnocentric, but not founded in reality. People give gifts usually to at least bring others closer to them as social insurance for when hard times come, and then those who they have given to will give back... it is an insurance policy if you will...




_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: gifts - 1/13/2010 8:53:12 PM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

Now what if the situation was reversed? What if a sub and a Dom/Domme were in a serious monogamous relationship, the sub was the gift giver, and the Dom/Domme first cheated, then dumped the sub after cheating, and was using the computer to look for replacements? Would the sub have the right to tell the Dom/Domme to get their own computer? Would that make a difference or is cheating equally bad in a monogamous relationship no matter if it's the Dom/Domme or sub that cheats?


In that case, I wouldn't give her the broom, I'd tell her to get her next sub to clean up the pieces.


_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: gifts - 1/13/2010 8:55:04 PM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

I'm just trying to get answers from different angles. Does it matter if it's a Dom, Domme, sub, two switches, or even vanilla if cheating is involved?


Not to me. If I can't trust her any more the ds part really doesn't matter anymore.


_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: gifts - 1/13/2010 9:01:27 PM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Sooooooooooo, here's the deal peoples. If you want a power exchange dynamic and are worried about losing shit when the deal goes south, don't give the s a damned thing! Cuz, all of the sudden that sweet little submissive/slave that agreed to a total power exchange, is going to turn into a greedy vanilla bitch/bastard.



The monogamy was clearly agreed upon by both parties. The sub was definitely not selfish or greedy. She gave him $250 and let him borrow her car on New Years Eve. He used her car to cheat on her, dumped her, and deliberately hid her car from her when she demanded it's return until the following evening. He apologized, but refused to make it up to her and wants to be just friends. He is currently using the laptop she gave him to hook up with other women. She is refusing to accept his insincere apology or his offer of friendship and is demanding that he return the laptop. Good for her I say.




ok, I thought she was still in possession of the computer. No I wouldn't ask for something back. It's not worth the aggravation. Some times you just have to live and learn.


_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: gifts - 1/14/2010 8:29:19 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
The cost of finding out, like divorce, was worth it.



Nailed it.  Of all the money and things (house, all my belongings, etc.) I lost in my divorce process, the overriding thought in my mind was, "This is the price I paid for my freedom."  Totally worth it.

A little over a year ago I went to the bank to close an account.  The woman at the counter asked me why and I said because there is nothing left in it!  She looked at her screen, then back and me and said "Did you move your money somewhere else?  You opened this account just a couple of years ago with $40,000." 

I said "No, I got divorced."

She said "Oh.  Well that's money well spent!"  I could only laugh.

So...seriously, say goodbye to the computer.  It isn't worth it.  What IS worth it, is moving on from this dead relationship.


_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: gifts - 1/14/2010 8:34:56 AM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

As a general rule, gifts are supposed to come with no strings attached. Are there exceptions to this rule? If someone deliberately uses a gift they were given to non-consentually hurt the person who gave the gift to them, is it appropriate in that case to ask that the gift be returned? Why or why not?


We spent a couple of weeks studying the concept of reciprocity last year in one of my theory courses when looking at gift giving from around the world. Giving and receiving seems to have different meanings for different people, and our view that a true gift is given with no expectation of any return is not only ethnocentric, but not founded in reality. People give gifts usually to at least bring others closer to them as social insurance for when hard times come, and then those who they have given to will give back... it is an insurance policy if you will...





Interesting.  Thanks.  The idea makes perfect sense, but I had never thought about it in this way. 

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: gifts - 1/14/2010 8:48:37 AM   
heartcream


Posts: 3044
Joined: 5/9/2007
From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline 		As far as D/s I have no opinion about gift-giving, taking back.

In the Native American world somewhere they have a thing, where if you give someone a gift and you want them out of your life you ask for everything back you ever gave them. The idea is not that they will physically hand you back everything you ever gave them but by asking you draw your energy out of them, take it back, so to speak.

You can ask for your computer back and he doesnt give it, consider your energy is out of it anyway.



_____________________________

"Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague." Vincent Van Gogh

I'd Rather Be With You

Every single line means something.
Jean-Michel Basquiat



(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: gifts - 1/14/2010 8:52:28 AM   
lusciouslips19


Posts: 9792
Joined: 9/8/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

As a general rule, gifts are supposed to come with no strings attached. Are there exceptions to this rule? If someone deliberately uses a gift they were given to non-consentually hurt the person who gave the gift to them, is it appropriate in that case to ask that the gift be returned? Why or why not?


We spent a couple of weeks studying the concept of reciprocity last year in one of my theory courses when looking at gift giving from around the world. Giving and receiving seems to have different meanings for different people, and our view that a true gift is given with no expectation of any return is not only ethnocentric, but not founded in reality. People give gifts usually to at least bring others closer to them as social insurance for when hard times come, and then those who they have given to will give back... it is an insurance policy if you will...





I think some in a relationship give gifts to the "partner" to say, "please love me". To try to make this person beholden to you. It doesnt work but people do try. If one has low self esteem the gift will be to get the person to "like" you. To get their love and approval. Like wining and dining someone and byeing them gifts.

Although not all gifts are given with this sentiment. Some who give just hope for karma points in the future. Or for what the givng makes one feel after when it actually is no strings attached.

_____________________________

Original Pimpette,
Keeper of Original Home Flag and Fire of Mr. Lance Hughes
Charter member of Lance's Fag Hags,
Member of the Subbie Mafia
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(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: gifts - 1/14/2010 9:00:25 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

I think some in a relationship give gifts to the "partner" to say, "please love me". To try to make this person beholden to you. It doesnt work but people do try. If one has low self esteem the gift will be to get the person to "like" you. To get their love and approval. Like wining and dining someone and byeing them gifts.


Absolutely!

and to what heartcream stated... I have always wanted to give back what was given to me, not get back what I had given. I do not know why I have that instinct, but I do. It is almost like cleansing that other person out of my life. I do not do it, because it is wrong to deny others what gift exchange is just because I am pissed off at them. I do not know if that makes sense.


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to lusciouslips19)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: gifts - 1/14/2010 9:04:54 AM   
DomMeinCT


Posts: 2355
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

As a general rule, gifts are supposed to come with no strings attached. Are there exceptions to this rule? If someone deliberately uses a gift they were given to non-consentually hurt the person who gave the gift to them, is it appropriate in that case to ask that the gift be returned? Why or why not?


We spent a couple of weeks studying the concept of reciprocity last year in one of my theory courses when looking at gift giving from around the world. Giving and receiving seems to have different meanings for different people, and our view that a true gift is given with no expectation of any return is not only ethnocentric, but not founded in reality. People give gifts usually to at least bring others closer to them as social insurance for when hard times come, and then those who they have given to will give back... it is an insurance policy if you will...



Yes!  Gifts come attached with strings all the time....  The sexy lingerie you get from your partner probably isn't meant to only be worn when s/he's out of the house.  The new Cuisinart is most likely meant to be used to prepare meals for the household.  Gifts come with strings all the time, and strings are not always negative. 

But this really isn't about the strings attached to the gift of the computer.

_____________________________

The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances:
if there is any reaction, both are transformed.
~ Carl Jung

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: gifts - 1/14/2010 9:08:56 AM   
heartcream


Posts: 3044
Joined: 5/9/2007
From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

I think some in a relationship give gifts to the "partner" to say, "please love me". To try to make this person beholden to you. It doesnt work but people do try. If one has low self esteem the gift will be to get the person to "like" you. To get their love and approval. Like wining and dining someone and byeing them gifts.


Absolutely!

and to what heartcream stated... I have always wanted to give back what was given to me, not get back what I had given. I do not know why I have that instinct, but I do. It is almost like cleansing that other person out of my life. I do not do it, because it is wrong to deny others what gift exchange is just because I am pissed off at them. I do not know if that makes sense.



In the Native American thing I am speaking about t works both ways. So thanks for bringing it up.

_____________________________

"Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague." Vincent Van Gogh

I'd Rather Be With You

Every single line means something.
Jean-Michel Basquiat



(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 60
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