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RE: Now Haiti!! The Big One/ Still don't believe the we... - 1/18/2010 6:49:04 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lazarus1983

Natural disasters occuring relatively close to each other is nothing new. It doesn't necessarily point to climate change, it doesn't necessarily mean anything at all. Sometimes it happens because it happens.


I agree. In fact, I would take it one step further when talking of natural disasters. It always happens just because it happens. The scope and force of Nature are beyond our imagination. I am amused by the folks who think we can control Nature by having large conferences and making grand statements. Might as well go out and do a rain dance for all that Nature can be persuaded.

My comment regarding the melting ice was only that some were proposing the hypothesis, not that it was accepted science by any means. Nor can I imagine how the hypothesis could be tested. Computer models are simulations. They do not test reality imo.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lazarus1983

In 1883 when Krakatoa erupted, it fueled the growth of an extremist strain of Islam, hellbent on purging society if impurities that displeased god. That group has recently been heard from twice in Bali terrorist attacks.

Luckily there are those that identify with organized religions that actually help instead of simply point the finger and kill.


As I read it the Islamist "extremists" were in place and already stirring unrest against their Dutch masters. I put quotes around extremists because I don't believe religion had much to do with the initial rebellion against the Colonialists in Java.

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Now Haiti!! The Big One/ Still don't believe the we... - 1/19/2010 5:13:47 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline 		Apparently there is now some major dispute over the IPCC report on glacier melt:

World misled over Himalayan glacier meltdown

A WARNING that climate change will melt most of the Himalayan glaciers by 2035 is likely to be retracted after a series of scientific blunders by the United Nations body that issued it.

Two years ago the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) issued a benchmark report that was claimed to incorporate the latest and most detailed research into the impact of global warming. A central claim was the world's glaciers were melting so fast that those in the Himalayas could vanish by 2035.

In the past few days the scientists behind the warning have admitted that it was based on a news story in the New Scientist, a popular science journal, published eight years before the IPCC's 2007 report.

It has also emerged that the New Scientist report was itself based on a short telephone interview with Syed Hasnain, a little-known Indian scientist then based at Jawaharlal

Hasnain has since admitted that the claim was "speculation" and was not supported by any formal research. If confirmed it would be one of the most serious failures yet seen in climate research. The IPCC was set up precisely to ensure that world leaders had the best possible scientific advice on climate change.

Professor Murari Lal, who oversaw the chapter on glaciers in the IPCC report, said he would recommend that the claim about glaciers be dropped: "If Hasnain says officially that he never asserted this, or that it is a wrong presumption, than I will recommend that the assertion about Himalayan glaciers be removed from future IPCC

Full story here

Who can we trust? It would appear, the science is not settled, although we so often hear the claim the concern is supported by the world's leading scientists.

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Now Haiti!! The Big One/ Still don't believe the we... - 1/19/2010 5:53:50 AM   
KcFunDom


Posts: 7
Joined: 1/18/2010
Status: offline 		Well, an undeniable fact...the glaciers are shrinking and the rate of shrinkage is accelerating.  It's hard to know what is fact and what is put forth by overzealous scientist bent on proving their point even if they are wrong.  They are no better than the so called "scientists" that deny the world is warming at all.  Maybe we reach a tipping point (many scientist point to a date as early as 2015 and others put that date off until the early part of the next decade.  As far as natural disasters being affected by global warming, it's hard to say.  Maybe you can trace larger hurricanes back to the ocean being warmer but how can we say that geological disasters such as Haiti are caused by global warming?  We should keep an open mind but we don't know enough about the geology of this planet to understand all of the causes of plate techtonics and what effect rising sea levels may play in that scenario.  Seems to me there are a lot of maybes but the fact is the planet is warming and it's certain that carbon emissions are largely responsible.  It seems to me the safe and conservative thing to do is eliminate carbon emissions as soon as possible.  Why not?

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Profile   Post #: 123
RE: Now Haiti!! The Big One/ Still don't believe the we... - 1/19/2010 6:53:42 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		Ive seen a few citations here about climate change causing geological changes.  This happens when Ice sheets melt and the resulting lowered pressure (a mile of ice has a hell of a lot of mass) allows geological processes to rebound where they have been kept in check.  ie an earthquake that wasnt able to erupt finally starting an overdue magma flow, etc.  But Haiti is in the tropics and this isnt an effect that is known to occur there nor could any concievable scenario of short term (1 century or less) climate change cause it.  It was just a few centuries of stress built up in a fault line.  It is right now occurrinig all over the world and the next (big one) could occur in any of a thousand places.

(in reply to breatheasone)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Now Haiti!! The Big One/ Still don't believe the we... - 1/19/2010 7:58:38 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline 		I agree 100% William. I made similar comments above. Possibly due to changes in the sea floor as the mid-atlantic ridge develops.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 1/19/2010 8:03:31 AM >

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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Profile   Post #: 125
RE: Now Haiti!! The Big One/ Still don't believe the we... - 1/19/2010 8:12:11 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KcFunDom

Well, an undeniable fact...the glaciers are shrinking and the rate of shrinkage is accelerating.  It's hard to know what is fact and what is put forth by overzealous scientist bent on proving their point even if they are wrong.  They are no better than the so called "scientists" that deny the world is warming at all.  Maybe we reach a tipping point (many scientist point to a date as early as 2015 and others put that date off until the early part of the next decade.  As far as natural disasters being affected by global warming, it's hard to say.  Maybe you can trace larger hurricanes back to the ocean being warmer but how can we say that geological disasters such as Haiti are caused by global warming?  We should keep an open mind but we don't know enough about the geology of this planet to understand all of the causes of plate techtonics and what effect rising sea levels may play in that scenario.  Seems to me there are a lot of maybes but the fact is the planet is warming and it's certain that carbon emissions are largely responsible.  It seems to me the safe and conservative thing to do is eliminate carbon emissions as soon as possible.  Why not?


Welcome to the Boards, KcFunDom. Enjoy.

We have had a number of threads "heatedly" debated on this topic. That is why I did not start a new one on this piece of news. If you search the previous threads you will find there are many who point out that warming may be cyclical given the Little Ice Age and the Medieval Warming before that. As far as carbon emissions, there is evidence from the ice borings that CO2 is released from the oceans after warming takes place. I don't want to go into it all again for fear I will taken out and shot by MzMia and other members.

ETA For example this chart.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 1/19/2010 8:17:26 AM >

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to KcFunDom)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Now Haiti!! The Big One/ Still don't believe the we... - 1/19/2010 8:35:46 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
There's been an ongoing thread about that very article for some time now, vincent:

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3012671


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: KcFunDom

Well, an undeniable fact...the glaciers are shrinking and the rate of shrinkage is accelerating.  It's hard to know what is fact and what is put forth by overzealous scientist bent on proving their point even if they are wrong.  They are no better than the so called "scientists" that deny the world is warming at all.  Maybe we reach a tipping point (many scientist point to a date as early as 2015 and others put that date off until the early part of the next decade.  As far as natural disasters being affected by global warming, it's hard to say.  Maybe you can trace larger hurricanes back to the ocean being warmer but how can we say that geological disasters such as Haiti are caused by global warming?  We should keep an open mind but we don't know enough about the geology of this planet to understand all of the causes of plate techtonics and what effect rising sea levels may play in that scenario.  Seems to me there are a lot of maybes but the fact is the planet is warming and it's certain that carbon emissions are largely responsible.  It seems to me the safe and conservative thing to do is eliminate carbon emissions as soon as possible.  Why not?


Welcome to the Boards, KcFunDom. Enjoy.

We have had a number of threads "heatedly" debated on this topic. That is why I did not start a new one on this piece of news. If you search the previous threads you will find there are many who point out that warming may be cyclical given the Little Ice Age and the Medieval Warming before that. As far as carbon emissions, there is evidence from the ice borings that CO2 is released from the oceans after warming takes place. I don't want to go into it all again for fear I will taken out and shot by MzMia and other members.

ETA For example this chart.


< Message edited by Sanity -- 1/19/2010 8:36:00 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 127
RE: Now Haiti!! The Big One/ Still don't believe the we... - 1/19/2010 8:43:55 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Ja, and Estring got one in off topic, something about kool aide.

the commenters are as bad as the bad sciencers.

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(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: Now Haiti!! The Big One/ Still don't believe the we... - 1/19/2010 9:48:22 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline 		Thanks, Sanity. I really did not wish to hit that hornet's nest again. Panda brought up the relationship between ice and earthquakes so I sneaked it in here.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Now Haiti!! The Big One/ Still don't believe the we... - 1/19/2010 9:52:14 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline 		Which flavor was that? Sometimes I feel like drinking it down ... if the Rev Jones is not holding out the cup. Truthfully, I am partial to beer or Sambuca.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 130
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