RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths

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Kirata -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/18/2010 10:06:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife The Harper's piece is not scheduled until March. The article you referenced says... WASHINGTON -- Three Guantánamo Bay detainees whose deaths were ruled a suicide in 2006 apparently had been transported from their cells hours before their deaths to a secret site on the island, an article in Harper's magazine asserts. The published account *released Monday* raises serious questions... Tim has already posted the link. K.

rulemylife -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/20/2010 1:25:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Here's the actual Harper's article: The Guantánamo “Suicides”: A Camp Delta sergeant blows the whistle By Scott Horton I didn't realize the actual article was already published, the news reports I saw, including the link I posted, said it would not be out till March. I assumed it was just leaked information. My fault for not checking further.

vincentML -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/20/2010 1:59:04 PM)
The article gives this as the official story from the NCIS report: According to the NCIS, each prisoner had fashioned a noose from torn sheets and T-shirts and tied it to the top of his cell’s eight-foot-high steel-mesh wall. Each prisoner was able somehow to bind his own hands, and, in at least one case, his own feet, then stuff more rags deep down into his own throat. We are then asked to believe that each prisoner, even as he was choking on those rags, climbed up on his washbasin, slipped his head through the noose, tightened it, and leapt from the washbasin to hang until he asphyxiated. The NCIS report also proposes that the three prisoners, who were held in non-adjoining cells, carried out each of these actions almost simultaneously. I try to be wary of conspiracy theories but after Abu Ghraib and some other bullshit stories we have been given, I don't understand how anyone can read the details without suspicion. I don't understand how the current Justice Department can pass this by. But then I also don't understand how the current Justice Dept and the Senate investigating committees can pass by the allegations of torture at Gitmo and CIA locations around the world. Are we all just like Shultz, the German prison guard in "Hogan's Heros" who happily repeated over and over "I know NOTHING." Then are we not all complicit? Is Obama any different from Bush the Little?

rulemylife -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/20/2010 2:00:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub How did what the guards saw... the several in the paragraph above... prove that going to this site they know nothing of, or what goes on there, directly lead to their deaths like the paragraph says. That is no proof of anything but poor outlandish sensationalistic political motivated reporting...Of no worth. And remember I am against that prison too...but this article is bullshit plain and simple. Butch No, this has actually been something that the law school at Seton Hall University has been looking into for several years. Death in Camp Delta Think Progress » Seton Hall law school study

rulemylife -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/20/2010 2:10:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife The Harper's piece is not scheduled until March. The article you referenced says... WASHINGTON -- Three Guantánamo Bay detainees whose deaths were ruled a suicide in 2006 apparently had been transported from their cells hours before their deaths to a secret site on the island, an article in Harper's magazine asserts. The published account *released Monday* raises serious questions... Tim has already posted the link. K. Yes, you're right, I just re-read it. That's what happens when you post threads too late at night after too many beers. [:D]

rulemylife -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/20/2010 2:14:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML The article gives this as the official story from the NCIS report: According to the NCIS, each prisoner had fashioned a noose from torn sheets and T-shirts and tied it to the top of his cell’s eight-foot-high steel-mesh wall. Each prisoner was able somehow to bind his own hands, and, in at least one case, his own feet, then stuff more rags deep down into his own throat. We are then asked to believe that each prisoner, even as he was choking on those rags, climbed up on his washbasin, slipped his head through the noose, tightened it, and leapt from the washbasin to hang until he asphyxiated. The NCIS report also proposes that the three prisoners, who were held in non-adjoining cells, carried out each of these actions almost simultaneously. I try to be wary of conspiracy theories but after Abu Ghraib and some other bullshit stories we have been given, I don't understand how anyone can read the details without suspicion. I don't understand how the current Justice Department can pass this by. But then I also don't understand how the current Justice Dept and the Senate investigating committees can pass by the allegations of torture at Gitmo and CIA locations around the world. Are we all just like Shultz, the German prison guard in "Hogan's Heros" who happily repeated over and over "I know NOTHING." Then are we not all complicit? Is Obama any different from Bush the Little? What caught my eye about it was the rags in their throats. Remember the descriptions of how waterboarding was done, by placing a rag over the prisoner's faces?

vincentML -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/20/2010 3:32:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML The article gives this as the official story from the NCIS report: According to the NCIS, each prisoner had fashioned a noose from torn sheets and T-shirts and tied it to the top of his cell’s eight-foot-high steel-mesh wall. Each prisoner was able somehow to bind his own hands, and, in at least one case, his own feet, then stuff more rags deep down into his own throat. We are then asked to believe that each prisoner, even as he was choking on those rags, climbed up on his washbasin, slipped his head through the noose, tightened it, and leapt from the washbasin to hang until he asphyxiated. The NCIS report also proposes that the three prisoners, who were held in non-adjoining cells, carried out each of these actions almost simultaneously. I try to be wary of conspiracy theories but after Abu Ghraib and some other bullshit stories we have been given, I don't understand how anyone can read the details without suspicion. I don't understand how the current Justice Department can pass this by. But then I also don't understand how the current Justice Dept and the Senate investigating committees can pass by the allegations of torture at Gitmo and CIA locations around the world. Are we all just like Shultz, the German prison guard in "Hogan's Heros" who happily repeated over and over "I know NOTHING." Then are we not all complicit? Is Obama any different from Bush the Little? What caught my eye about it was the rags in their throats. Remember the descriptions of how waterboarding was done, by placing a rag over the prisoner's faces? Yes. Additionally, the scenario is curious. First, the sheets or cloth had to be ripped. Climb up on the basin with all the cloth? More probably just the hanging cloth and fix the noose into place. Jump down without a sound. Gather the rest of the cloth. Back up on the basin. Bend over without falling on your face and tie ankles. Stuff cloth down throat. Fix noose around neck. Tie hands behind back? Jump or just lean forward, I guess. And none of the interior guards noticed? Kids, don't do this at home. I don't know. Maybe some new information will confirm these guys committed suicide simultaneously in an asymetrical terrorist attack against the United States. I just don't feel safe anymore. [8\|]

popeye1250 -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/20/2010 3:53:34 PM)
They probably just got a little antsy for their date with 72 virgins. We should be celebrating! If I were a guard there (Marines not "soldiers.") I'd be telling the other scumbags that they better hurry up as those three "were fucking all YOUR virgins!" "Allah said they could because you guys are cowards!" Then you leave a bunch of ropes there where they can reach them and go out for a smoke.

servantforuse -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/20/2010 4:52:23 PM)
I'm not real concerned about a couple of terrorists who are no longer here.

vincentML -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/20/2010 5:00:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 They probably just got a little antsy for their date with 72 virgins. We should be celebrating! If I were a guard there (Marines not "soldiers.") I'd be telling the other scumbags that they better hurry up as those three "were fucking all YOUR virgins!" "Allah said they could because you guys are cowards!" Then you leave a bunch of ropes there where they can reach them and go out for a smoke. I understand the anger toward terrorists and the attack on our nation. Here are a couple of things that puzzle me about the Gitmo prisoners. Perhaps you can clarify for me, popeye. My understanding is that for the most part they were not captured on the battlefield but were captured by way of rewards offered or "intel" obtained, and then they were "disappeared." At least some were "ratted out." So, other than those who offered confessions like KSM (after 183 waterboardings, but who is counting?) how are we so sure of their guilt? If we were sure of their guilt why did we waterboard? Why were the CIA waterboarding tapes destroyed? Why did the Bush Administration release so many from Gitmo if there is so much certainty in their guilt? Why are we so willing to return to frontier justice (as your remarks suggest) in Gitmo when we have a record of over 160 men released from Death Rows in the States as innocent according to review of DNA evidence? Authorities and juries make mistakes, it seems. All very curious and unsavory shit to me this business of wartime Justice. Aren't you the least bit curious about all the secrecy involved at Gitmo and CIA "dark" stations around the world? I am. All your joking about celestial virgins do not persuade me. Do you believe everything Government tells you?

popeye1250 -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/20/2010 9:01:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 They probably just got a little antsy for their date with 72 virgins. We should be celebrating! If I were a guard there (Marines not "soldiers.") I'd be telling the other scumbags that they better hurry up as those three "were fucking all YOUR virgins!" "Allah said they could because you guys are cowards!" Then you leave a bunch of ropes there where they can reach them and go out for a smoke. I understand the anger toward terrorists and the attack on our nation. Here are a couple of things that puzzle me about the Gitmo prisoners. Perhaps you can clarify for me, popeye. My understanding is that for the most part they were not captured on the battlefield but were captured by way of rewards offered or "intel" obtained, and then they were "disappeared." At least some were "ratted out." So, other than those who offered confessions like KSM (after 183 waterboardings, but who is counting?) how are we so sure of their guilt? If we were sure of their guilt why did we waterboard? Why were the CIA waterboarding tapes destroyed? Why did the Bush Administration release so many from Gitmo if there is so much certainty in their guilt? Why are we so willing to return to frontier justice (as your remarks suggest) in Gitmo when we have a record of over 160 men released from Death Rows in the States as innocent according to review of DNA evidence? Authorities and juries make mistakes, it seems. All very curious and unsavory shit to me this business of wartime Justice. Aren't you the least bit curious about all the secrecy involved at Gitmo and CIA "dark" stations around the world? I am. All your joking about celestial virgins do not persuade me. Do you believe everything Government tells you? LOL, Vincent, do you really care? My father who was on a U.S. Navy destroyer in the S. Pacific told us stories about how they'd machine gun any Jap survivors in the water after they'd sunk their barges so that they couldn't swim in and kill the Marines! Run these pricks over with bull dozers for all I care! Throw them out of helicopters 20 miles out to sea like they did in Vietnam!

kdsub -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/20/2010 10:48:10 PM)
Maybe you can show a list of who was captured and why...I could not find one...I did find a list of those released...there are many already released and this program continues when we can find nations willing to take them. There are plans to close the base and move those that are convictable under law to a prison in Illinois. The reason the camp is not closed now is not exclusively the fault of the US. Nations worldwide don't want terrorists released in their jurisdictions. Otherwise they are perfectly willing to condemn the US but none is willing to take the very people they are demanding we free. Hypocritical if you ask me...They love that we are taking the heat and at the same time protecting their butts. As I’ve said in the past we need a UN agreement or at least the world powers on how to handle captured terrorists... where to keep them and where to prosecute them. It would be different if there were a particular nation at war with another but many times the nationality of terrorists cannot be determined. Some nations of origin would refuse to bring them to justice. So if you don’t like Gitmo quit bitching and come up with ideas to send to your representatives. Butch

vincentML -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/21/2010 4:33:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Maybe you can show a list of who was captured and why...I could not find one...I did find a list of those released...there are many already released and this program continues when we can find nations willing to take them. Lists are secret I think. Records are scattered throughout the govt according to incoming Obama people. One of the reasons it has been so difficult to plan a shut down of Gitmo. quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub There are plans to close the base and move those that are convictable under law to a prison in Illinois. A lot of resistence from Conservatives. Don't want them thar terristas on 'merican soil. Especially after recent Detroit plane incident. quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub The reason the camp is not closed now is not exclusively the fault of the US. Nations worldwide don't want terrorists released in their jurisdictions. Otherwise they are perfectly willing to condemn the US but none is willing to take the very people they are demanding we free. Hypocritical if you ask me...They love that we are taking the heat and at the same time protecting their butts. we agree quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub As I’ve said in the past we need a UN agreement or at least the world powers on how to handle captured terrorists... where to keep them and where to prosecute them. It would be different if there were a particular nation at war with another but many times the nationality of terrorists cannot be determined. Some nations of origin would refuse to bring them to justice. World Court in the Hague. U.S. will not participate for fear of indictment of our own leaders. quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub So if you don’t like Gitmo quit bitching and come up with ideas to send to your representatives. Damn, Butch. You just started a thread bitching about how ineffective is our Congress and here you suggest writing a letter ??? [:D]

vincentML -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/21/2010 4:51:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 They probably just got a little antsy for their date with 72 virgins. We should be celebrating! If I were a guard there (Marines not "soldiers.") I'd be telling the other scumbags that they better hurry up as those three "were fucking all YOUR virgins!" "Allah said they could because you guys are cowards!" Then you leave a bunch of ropes there where they can reach them and go out for a smoke. I understand the anger toward terrorists and the attack on our nation. Here are a couple of things that puzzle me about the Gitmo prisoners. Perhaps you can clarify for me, popeye. My understanding is that for the most part they were not captured on the battlefield but were captured by way of rewards offered or "intel" obtained, and then they were "disappeared." At least some were "ratted out." So, other than those who offered confessions like KSM (after 183 waterboardings, but who is counting?) how are we so sure of their guilt? If we were sure of their guilt why did we waterboard? Why were the CIA waterboarding tapes destroyed? Why did the Bush Administration release so many from Gitmo if there is so much certainty in their guilt? Why are we so willing to return to frontier justice (as your remarks suggest) in Gitmo when we have a record of over 160 men released from Death Rows in the States as innocent according to review of DNA evidence? Authorities and juries make mistakes, it seems. All very curious and unsavory shit to me this business of wartime Justice. Aren't you the least bit curious about all the secrecy involved at Gitmo and CIA "dark" stations around the world? I am. All your joking about celestial virgins do not persuade me. Do you believe everything Government tells you? LOL, Vincent, do you really care? My father who was on a U.S. Navy destroyer in the S. Pacific told us stories about how they'd machine gun any Jap survivors in the water after they'd sunk their barges so that they couldn't swim in and kill the Marines! Run these pricks over with bull dozers for all I care! Throw them out of helicopters 20 miles out to sea like they did in Vietnam! Let me see if I understand what your father told you. US Troops on Destroyers were afraid of Japanese survivors bobbiing up and down defenseless in the ocean with what lethal weapons? You believe that bullshit excuse, Popeye? If you had told me it was vengence for how US prisoners were treated on the Bataan march I could understand. But "swim in and kill the Marines?" You really drink that kool aid? OMFG! Do I care? I repeat, from my understanding, most of these prisoners at Gitmo were not captured on the battlefield but have been kept for years. I care that my Country is acting inhumanely. Yes, I do. I notice you quite clearly do not have any answers to my questions about justice. Pretty content to be represented by a govt that just snatches people and keeps them in a concentration camp for years without a trial. Like they did to this kid Padilla. He may have been guilty but they kept him in a brig for years without a trial. Yes, I care about the inhumanity and injustice perpetrated by govt in our names. Too bad you don't also. So, don't go bitching when turnabout occurs to one of ours.

Aneirin -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/21/2010 5:32:42 AM)
Whatever the prisoners maybe, just the enemy, partisans, sympathisers, tourists, family of nationals, mercenaries fighting for free or terrorists, they are held in what we understand as deplorable conditions and treated in a humiliating way without it seems a charge to bring against them, and no evidence except they were there and what they can extract from the subjects own mouth by reported nefarious means. GTMO is still open a year after Obama's victory, is that year going to extend to a full term and become someone else's problem I wonder. The solution I see to this problem, is to release the prisoners and the US can grovel on it's knees with apologies for unlawful imprisonment, charge them with something solid and proveable and there convict them for their crimes, or put them back where they found them so they may continue their business, whatever it was, as this farce to the worldwide community is not making the US look good at anything other than snatching people and any other misconduct that follows. It is without doubt the anger felt by certain communities is not making the US any safer. Maybe government and important people can be to an extent protected, but what about the rest of you/ us who are not important to the powerful, do they really care when a terrorist in successful in their mission as anyone can utter words in sympathy, but it is actions that count, clear, calculated and effective actions, not the rash go in guns blazing and work out the consequences later way, as it seems is the case with the snatching of the people who are in GTMO. I think the international community is thinking the US military snatched these people for whatever means, then it is the US government's problem, they must sort it out, and for the US to ask other countries to take people who have a question mark hanging over their head to ease the situation for the US, is a bit much. If the US is saying they did what they did on behalf of the international community, who asked them to, did any other country sanction this snatching of people and transportation to a place on the other side of the world where it seems no humanitarian or civil rights law reaches. If other countries are implicit in this action, then those countries should share the burden the US has, and the people of those implicit countries can ask questions of their own rulers, as to just what their game was.

vincentML -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/21/2010 7:52:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin I think the international community is thinking the US military snatched these people for whatever means, then it is the US government's problem, they must sort it out, and for the US to ask other countries to take people who have a question mark hanging over their head to ease the situation for the US, is a bit much. If the US is saying they did what they did on behalf of the international community, who asked them to, did any other country sanction this snatching of people and transportation to a place on the other side of the world where it seems no humanitarian or civil rights law reaches. If other countries are implicit in this action, then those countries should share the burden the US has, and the people of those implicit countries can ask questions of their own rulers, as to just what their game was. I am not sure it was the US Military in most cases. CIA in many. The Obama team has been slow in acting for a number of reasons. One of which is that the prisoners' files were scattered thoughout the beauracracy sitting in file cabinets here or there, or so it was reported. We shall see if O has the balls to close the place. Action of SCOTUS in 2004: Elisa Massimino Human Rights First Monday, June 28, 2004; 2:00 PM The Supreme Court ruled today in two cases regarding anti-terrorism legislation and the rights of prisoners and "enemy combatants." The court decided that suspected terrorists must be allowed access to the American justice system to contest their detention. Still not happening as far as I know.

kdsub -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/21/2010 11:19:30 AM)
See you stated something that you yourself cannot find the proof for...so why say it. There are ongoing negotiations for an Illinois prison...good chance it will happen. We are one of the participating nations...there could be an easy agreement to exclude the US leaders from prosecution...as long as the terrorist would get fair treatment and trial...It would work. It does not need to be the World Court in Hague. It could be set up under the UN if necessary. Hell …write to the UN or to France...or the UK and to your congressman ...Just speak out. I would be satisfied if you would speak your ideas right here on CM. Butch

kdsub -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/21/2010 12:05:32 PM)
Any incarceration is humiliating...but have you been there to see the treatment or are you just mouthing what others have said. Have you ever been to a federal high security prison...even in your own country. There are established procedures for security at these types of prisons. They are very severe for the protection of the guards...Never been an escape from them because of it. Now many have been released...those left have more binding proof of guilt...or at least Obama is saying so...I personally believe him. These are not poor boys scooped up off the streets of the world for fun. I think Europe should help find a solution or shut up... get off the high horse and remember their dead at the hands of these people…it is doing neither of us any good. Butch

rulemylife -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/21/2010 1:35:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: servantforuse I'm not real concerned about a couple of terrorists who are no longer here. The only problem being is how many were released without any charges, effectively declaring them innocent. You are making the assumption that everyone incarcerated there was a terrorist, and that has been repeatedly proven wrong.

rulemylife -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/21/2010 1:52:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 LOL, Vincent, do you really care? My father who was on a U.S. Navy destroyer in the S. Pacific told us stories about how they'd machine gun any Jap survivors in the water after they'd sunk their barges so that they couldn't swim in and kill the Marines! Run these pricks over with bull dozers for all I care! Throw them out of helicopters 20 miles out to sea like they did in Vietnam! It's not a comparable situation. I don't agree that the things you mentioned should be done in any situation, but at least in those cases they were sure that they were the enemy. Many innocent people were turned over as terrorists by those seeking the bounty that was being offered by our government.

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