RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (Full Version)

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luckydawg -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/21/2010 1:57:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I'm not real concerned about a couple of terrorists who are no longer here.


The only problem being is how many were released without any charges, effectively declaring them innocent.

You are making the assumption that everyone incarcerated there was a terrorist, and that has been repeatedly proven wrong.


Only in the sense that it was proven that the only law that Al Capone ever broke was a few tax codes, and he had no connection to orginized crime....




Aneirin -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/21/2010 5:02:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Any incarceration is humiliating...but have you been there to see the treatment or are you just mouthing what others have said. Have you ever been to a federal high security prison...even in your own country. There are established procedures for security at these types of prisons. They are very severe for the protection of the guards...Never been an escape from them because of it.

Now many have been released...those left have more binding proof of guilt...or at least Obama is saying so...I personally believe him.

These are not poor boys scooped up off the streets of the world for fun.

I think Europe should help find a solution or shut up... get off the high horse and remember their dead at the hands of these people…it is doing neither of us any good.

Butch



I will draw attention to your statement that Europe get off it's high horse and remember their dead at the hands of these people, who are we talking about here, the people incarcerated in GTMO, the people of the region in general, or are you saying those who follow Islam ? I ask, as what you are saying appears to me as a generalisation. If those incarcerated at GTMO are the terrorists who killed people in Europe and America, then as is the course of law, prove it. If the detainees can be brought to trial and convicted with credible evidence that they are the terrorists in question, then I will then alter my views, but until a trial can be brought to those suspected, I go on the premise innocent, until proven guilty.




kdsub -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/21/2010 6:51:36 PM)

Obama plans to do just that...and release the rest if you will take them

Butch




vincentML -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/21/2010 8:18:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

LOL, Vincent, do you really care?
My father who was on a U.S. Navy destroyer in the S. Pacific told us stories about how they'd machine gun any Jap survivors in the water after they'd sunk their barges so that they couldn't swim in and kill the Marines!
Run these pricks over with bull dozers for all I care! Throw them out of helicopters 20 miles out to sea like they did in Vietnam!


It's not a comparable situation.

I don't agree that the things you mentioned should be done in any situation, but at least in those cases they were sure that they were the enemy.

Many innocent people were turned over as terrorists by those seeking the bounty that was being offered by our government.



There are palpable and horrendous differences between being subjected to cruelty by an individual against whom you might resist verses institutional cruelty by the State. Dachau immediately springs to mind. At Gitmo and CIA dark sites the prisoner is isolated, blindfolded, in a freezing room with loud music, made to stand for long hours or days, deprived of sleep, of family, friends, and lawyers, and at the mercy of strangers who have a license to torture or make you disappear. It is no different than the offices of the Medieval Inquisition conducted in Spain and elswhere. This is what is being done in our name.

I am not sure what Butch is challenging me to prove in his message #37 but if you wish a detailed account I suggest the investigation by Jane Mayer published in her book The Dark Side.




kdsub -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/21/2010 9:05:06 PM)

Vince this is not a challange just trying to keep facts from fiction.

You said…

” My understanding is that for the most part they were not captured on the battlefield but were captured by way of rewards offered or "intel" obtained, and then they were "disappeared." At least some were "ratted out."”

I asked you to show me a list of who was captured and why.

You said…

“Lists are secret I think. Records are scattered throughout the govt according to incoming Obama people. One of the reasons it has been so difficult to plan a shut down of Gitmo.

That is why I said…

“See you stated something that you yourself cannot find the proof for...so why say it.”

See the logic...simple I try not to say things I have no proof of just because others are saying it even if it could be true.

If there is a list in the book perhaps you could find it and post it as long as proof is provided with the list.

Believe me I am not for keeping Gitmo open…just the opposite. But I am protesting people’s perception of Gitmo today. This when they don’t even try to understand the problems of closing such a site.

It is not just the US problem it is the world’s problem on how to handle these people that if released could very well blow up more subways in the UK or blow up buildings in the US… We need a world procedure and system of justice that is not political.

Butch




vincentML -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/22/2010 8:44:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Vince this is not a challange just trying to keep facts from fiction.

You said…

” My understanding is that for the most part they were not captured on the battlefield but were captured by way of rewards offered or "intel" obtained, and then they were "disappeared." At least some were "ratted out."”

I asked you to show me a list of who was captured and why.

You said…

“Lists are secret I think. Records are scattered throughout the govt according to incoming Obama people. One of the reasons it has been so difficult to plan a shut down of Gitmo.

That is why I said…

“See you stated something that you yourself cannot find the proof for...so why say it.”

See the logic...simple I try not to say things I have no proof of just because others are saying it even if it could be true.

If there is a list in the book perhaps you could find it and post it as long as proof is provided with the list.



Butch, thank you for your curteous reply.

Here is a link to a list from Wiki along with some history of the DoD's resistence to revealing names. There have been 759 suspects. Of these 250 have been repatriated. Additionally, 50 - 60 have been approved for release but are still held because of resistence to repatriation.

The list gives the home country for many and the date of detention. It does not say where they were captured. But a casual glance through the list suggests there may not be a defined battlefield or even a defined enemy; only those designated by POTUS.

Al Hakin of China detained in 2001. Determined to be innocent but still detained.

Al Hajj Sudan 2001 cameraman for al Jazeera

Badrzaman date not stated Afghanastan A writer with a masters degree in English literature. At the time of his detention he was already imprisoned in Afghanistan for writing satirical articles that lampooned both the U.S. and the Taliban.

Belkacem, Bensayah[8] Bosnia January 17, 2002 Captured in Bosnia following his acquittal by the Bosnian Supreme Court
One of the Algerian Six

Qassim, Abu Bakker China 2001 Detained in Camp Iguana, since 2002, as "enemy combatant;" CSRT ruled him "no longer enemy combatant" in 2004. Held pending country to accept him, due to him opposing return to China for fear of torture. Denied entry and asylum to U.S. under the INA, denied habeas corpus.

Well, you can read through the list when you have time.


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
It is not just the US problem it is the world’s problem on how to handle these people that if released could very well blow up more subways in the UK or blow up buildings in the US… We need a world procedure and system of justice that is not political.


I believe it is the Obama administration that set up CSRT - Combat Status Review Tribunal - who is going through the case files. No pun intended and my opinion only but I think the fears of releasing many of these prisoners are overblown. We are looking at a pool of 759. Some may have been released wrongly or for lack of any evidence, and may be dangerous. Some may have been radicalized by their experience. Probably the great majority released are harmless to us. The numbers of those who have "returned to the battlefield" is forever changing. So maybe there are 50 who have returned and sworn to harm us. I have heard the number is far less but I will use 50 as a potential harmful pool and compare that pool to the 1000s upon 1000s, maybe 100,000s extreme Islamists around the world who wish to wage war on us. The few that we release and turn on us are not the major problem we face.

Again my opinion only, I think there might be a lot of fear mongering and propaganda causing a scare against the closing of Gitmo. Geo W Bush election of 2004 showed that fear mongering wins elections.

ciao, vincent




kdsub -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/22/2010 4:33:20 PM)

Yes I had looked at those very same lists but they mostly do not describe if they were captured in combat or not.

Now again it is a case of do you trust your government... Tonight on the world news it was stated that a government source stated 1 in 5 released go right back to fighting again. They provided no proof but just made that statement...If there is even a slight chance that that statistic is true then we should be cautious in just releasing these people just because of world opinion...One day you may see their faces in the news after they massacre more Americans...or Europeans.

Butch




Politesub53 -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/22/2010 5:06:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Yes I had looked at those very same lists but they mostly do not describe if they were captured in combat or not.

Now again it is a case of do you trust your government... Tonight on the world news it was stated that a government source stated 1 in 5 released go right back to fighting again. They provided no proof but just made that statement...If there is even a slight chance that that statistic is true then we should be cautious in just releasing these people just because of world opinion...One day you may see their faces in the news after they massacre more Americans...or Europeans.

Butch



So what is your view, is it that innocent people should be jailed because of suspected links with terror groups ? You ask aboput trust in the government, in the case of those detained it would be the Bush and Blair regimes. Since we now now, and many of us suspected, both men were capable of distorting the truth.

I agree something should be done about the one in five that return to terrorism, starting with a better job of the prosecutions in the first place. How about the four in five that are innocent though, are you happy with them being wrongly incarcerated ?




rulemylife -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/22/2010 6:16:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I'm not real concerned about a couple of terrorists who are no longer here.


The only problem being is how many were released without any charges, effectively declaring them innocent.

You are making the assumption that everyone incarcerated there was a terrorist, and that has been repeatedly proven wrong.


Only in the sense that it was proven that the only law that Al Capone ever broke was a few tax codes, and he had no connection to orginized crime....


And the prisoners kept for years with no charges filed and then released?

Not an apt analogy.




kdsub -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/22/2010 6:30:12 PM)

Hi Politesub

I want no innocents incarcerated...and I'm not as sure as you that they are...Many have been released because of lack of evidence...And as you I want Gitmo closed...then inmates prosecuted or released...and that is what Obama is trying to do. But no one wants them...

Just as an example say enemy soldier was captured in WWII… That soldier in most cases was incarcerated until the end of the war then freed under treaty with both sides releasing prisoners.

Another example a terrorist or freedom fighter, depending on your perspective, is captured by US forces anywhere in the world…there are no borders in this war.
We were faced with a difficult problem…what to do with them. An enemy soldier fighting for what he thinks right is different than terrorist killing innocents. We have both.

The world failed... not just Bush in coming up with procedures to handle a fighter without a country at war.

Now Obama is trying to come up with an answer himself because Europe refuses to help. He plans on doing just as you propose…prosecuting those with evidence of terrorism and releasing others who pledge not to return to the fight.

It is a shame when Europe in particular looks down on the US for doing the necessary job they did not want to do.

Now I’m not saying mistakes were not made…I think all evolved with practices like water boarding should be prosecuted here in the US… As a soldier I would not have done it…I would have refused…following orders is not an excuse for me. It is against our laws as well as world laws...There is no reason they should not be held accountable here.

But because that happened does not relieve the worlds responsibility to stamp out, punish and imprison those that would commit atrocities on our people… And we need procedures to do it to make sure a Gitmo is not necessary in the future.

I just want you to understand the problems evolved with just opening the gates and letting them go...Innocent people will die because of that action.

Butch




kdsub -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/22/2010 6:41:29 PM)

There were many prisoners who were just fighting for their religion and way of life. They were not terrorists but still killing Americans.

I look at these as innocents and they would have been released at the end of a conventional war...Just as we released thousands of Iraqis when the first war was over.

But these fighters were not fighting for a country we could make a treaty with…that is why they were held for so long…There is still not a world accepted procedure for handling these soldiers.

What would you do if your child were killed on a subway by a freedom fighter. The authorities find the people who supplied them information and gave them shelter and put them in Gitmo. They thought they were fighting for their way of life and religion… They were not combatants but do you just let them go?

This is not a regular war and it will take new laws and procedures to handle captured combatants...An apology is not need for planning a way to kill my children and destroy my way of life...fuck them.




Aneirin -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/22/2010 6:51:21 PM)

The problem with the whole procedure was whoever it was that gave the order to snatch the prisoners at GTMO thought that they would gain intelligence by having them where they want them, hence the means reported to have been used to extract information and you can bet your bottom dollar the prisoners were not just quizzed on who they were and why they were at position x. Now if these people were terrorists as whoever ordered the captures believed, why capture them in the first place, battlefield or not, people die, perhaps a  terrorist is better dead than incarcerated in a place the world bear witness and strengthen the terrorist claims and cause, GTMO to my understanding, was a major fuck up for the USA, it has made the US's position weaker, not stronger.




kdsub -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/22/2010 7:02:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

The problem with the whole procedure was whoever it was that gave the order to snatch the prisoners at GTMO thought that they would gain intelligence by having them where they want them, hence the means reported to have been used to extract information and you can bet your bottom dollar the prisoners were not just quizzed on who they were and why they were at position x. Now if these people were terrorists as whoever ordered the captures believed, why capture them in the first place, battlefield or not, people die, perhaps a  terrorist is better dead than incarcerated in a place the world bear witness and strengthen the terrorist claims and cause, GTMO to my understanding, was a major fuck up for the USA, it has made the US's position weaker, not stronger.


I agree with you...in every war there are intelligence centers to try and extract information the UK has one and had one during WWII as well. We are doing nothing different then in the past but under different circumstances...no country to hold responsible.

How do you think it should be handled...I believe it should be a world agreement on how to handle them... You just can't let them go to kill again...But one country doing what is necessary is a target and can be used in propaganda but if it were a world wide agreement they could not do it.

Gathering information against an enemy out for your destruction is necessary…can you deny that? No country worth its existence is going to let 3,000 people murdered and not fight back.

Do you also deny that these very same people are not still trying to find ways to kill your people and mine?

We need something like Gitmo but with world laws and procedures governing it.


Butch




Aneirin -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/22/2010 7:32:45 PM)

Nope , I disagree, we do not need a world prison were suspects can be held pending intelligence gathering, trial and prosecution, as that, is open to more abuse than you can even think of. The former USSR was condemned for it's detention centers for political dissidents, places where people languished in ardour for years without trial or conviction, some to die in captivity and others to find themselves one day let go, but with a lifetime gone. We do not need to take examples from the former USSR, or similar oppressive regimes, or may it be said we have become one ourself.

As I said earlier, for those that were snatched in war zones, put them back there to carry on with their business, if that business was war, hey they can take their chances, but whatever happens now, the US has made these people celebrities of a sort, no doubt the world press will be watching their every move, they will have an ear wherever they go and whatever they say.

But on the other hand, perhaps GTMO does serve a purpose, if these people truly are that dangerous,  it is better for the world that they are all in one place as free, the intelligence services will be of no use in preventing terrorist actions, due to  their inability to join the dots.




kdsub -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/22/2010 7:40:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Nope , I disagree, we do not need a world prison were suspects can be held pending intelligence gathering, trial and prosecution, as that, is open to more abuse than you can even think of. The former USSR was condemned for it's detention centers for political dissidents, places where people languished in ardour for years without trial or conviction, some to die in captivity and others to find themselves one day let go, but with a lifetime gone. We do not need to take examples from the former USSR, or similar oppressive regimes, or may it be said we have become one ourself.

As I said earlier, for those that were snatched in war zones, put them back there to carry on with their business, if that business was war, hey they can take their chances, but whatever happens now, the US has made these people celebrities of a sort, no doubt the world press will be watching their every move, they will have an ear wherever they go and whatever they say.

But on the other hand, perhaps GTMO does serve a purpose, if these people truly are that dangerous,  it is better for the world that they are all in one place as free, the intelligence services will be of no use in preventing terrorist actions, due to  their inability to join the dots.




That makes no sense...if you capture an enemy you don't just let them go...They could kill again.

So those people involved with the subway bombings in your opinion should just be released...no attempt should be made to gather intell from them to stop future attacks?...Come on be realistic.

It is not the gathering of intell and incarcerating combatants and accomplices...it is laws governing how it should be done that needs to be negotiated.

Butch




Musicmystery -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/22/2010 7:46:13 PM)

~FR~

In the case of these three deaths, there was no evidence; they were among people some Afghans sold out (literally) to the U.S. and were picked up. All three were cleared and set to be released in just days. Then their bizarre ends--which are clearly murders, followed by cover up.

Whatever else of all this is appropriate elsewhere, the facts provided here just don't add up.




Aneirin -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/22/2010 8:25:22 PM)

Exactly, Could, but more likely as they are now, be an inspiration, a reason and proof for disgruntled people to commit atrocities for, to the disgruntled, politicaly inspired or radical whatever, the incarceration of innocents is a reason to fight, kill and die for, it is the same the world over and history recorded.

Subway and London bus bombings, past IRA bombings, yes, in Britain, we have suffered terrorist actions before now, the present threat is nothing new, we have had cities bombed, meeting places, churches, parades and memorials bombed, the innocents are always the victim, but it was political hay for the IRA cause. All through my childhood and youth, when I could understand what the news shows were on about, all I remember is reports of IRA and what atrocities they had committed lately, who had been machine gunned, where had a nail bomb gone off, how many innocent people going about their business harming no one had been killed or maimed. My time in the forces, the threat was the Irish Republican cause, the Islamic extremists, who were they ? Now with the IRA largely tamed and they repentant on their old ways and making headway with the civilised way of doing things, we have a new bogeyman in our midst, another threat to contend with, the misguided Islamic extremist. But of those that have committed atrocities in this country, they have been investigated, hunted and brought to the law, those guilty have been incarcerated, and unfortunately some of the innocent, to be released later, set free and compensated, if any amount of money can be a substitute for humiliation and loss of freedom.

You see, that might be the difference between the US and the UK, we have suffered terrorist actions and threat for many years, we have been there, we know it, but now instead of those who speak with an Irish accent being suspect, it is the darker skined or follower of Islam who receives suspicion from some, perhaps the radical and disgruntled of our indigenous people.

Could it be even, whilst the US is it seems running around the world like a headless chicken trying to counter the threat it now personally feels, Britain is thinking hey shit, we have been here before, hey ho, carry on as normal and deal with it as it comes. There are even people still living that experienced Hitler's Blitz, my neighbour being one of them, her with tales of bombs raining down on a near nightly basis, not knowing if they would be alive to see the morning.




rulemylife -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/22/2010 9:13:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

This is not a regular war and it will take new laws and procedures to handle captured combatants...An apology is not need for planning a way to kill my children and destroy my way of life...fuck them.



You are operating under the assumption that all those who were incarcerated were either terrorists or enemy combatants.  That's simply not the case.

Here are a few examples, though I can offer many more:


Prisoner Release Highlights Guantanamo Failures




kdsub -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/22/2010 9:44:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

~FR~

In the case of these three deaths, there was no evidence; they were among people some Afghans sold out (literally) to the U.S. and were picked up. All three were cleared and set to be released in just days. Then their bizarre ends--which are clearly murders, followed by cover up.

Whatever else of all this is appropriate elsewhere, the facts provided here just don't add up.


Proof give me proof ...I don't believe it... I could see an interrogation going bad on one person but not three...and if you killed three why not more...why not 10 or 20...why these three so called innocents as if you even know that...why not the truly bad ones...It does not make sense you are correct but because it happened does not mean they were murdered...Why do you people insist at making outlandish claims without proof.

Clearly murdered my ass…there is nothing clear about what happened and you sure don’t know enough to be making that claim that you know beyond doubt.

Butch




Politesub53 -> RE: Magazine raises questions over 3 detainee deaths (1/23/2010 4:18:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub


That makes no sense...if you capture an enemy you don't just let them go...They could kill again.

So those people involved with the subway bombings in your opinion should just be released...no attempt should be made to gather intell from them to stop future attacks?...Come on be realistic.



If you mean the London underground bombings, the terrorists that survived were tried and jailed under UK laws. They would also have been extensively questioned by the security services.

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/56699-july-21-bombers-jailed-for-40-years




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